Question about feral cats abandoning their kittens..

[StefanZ]

I can handle being ill. I've got bipolar disorder. Not sleeping isn't foreign to me.

Weights before eating:
Herc - 7.5 oz
Lucy - 6.9

Weights after eating:
Herc - 8.1 (he was moving around quite a bit so this may not be accurate)
Lucy - 7.1

Lucy ate a bit less until she got used to it. Now she eats the same as her brother and they both guzzled down 9 mL. Herc sucked it right out. The plunger on this new syringe is easy so I let him set the pace. Any advice based on weight? Is Lucy too skinny or is Herc just too fat?

Their weights are in much individual, so what you do is to compare against the latest known weigt, was it 6,5 on thursday, two full days ago?    so the girls addition is OK, not grand but OK, especielly as they didnt got much the first day.   The boy hasnt pooped, so he prob weights a little more than he should.

 

[StefanZ]

Also I did the "dehydration test" on Herc and his skin went right back. He also peed more this time around. Should I still add water between feedings? Just in case? I've still got that 1 mL syringe. Is that too much for him to take in? Should I go for .2 mL?

Good, but the extra water is not only against dehydration, but also to loosening the poo..  So please continue with extra water.

Dont worry, if he gets too much water he will just pee it out, so normal water amounts arent dangerous.   Its just if you grossly overdo it may be harmful.

 

[commanderscott]

I will add extra water between feedings and a drop of olive oil to his feedings for the next day and see if he has any improvements. I know his little body is trying to work it out. He's doing the same thing Lucille did before she had her first good BM this morning -- a little bit at a time. I'm anticipating a good BM either later tonight or tomorrow morning. He's also peeing a LOT more now; the running, warm water and tapping is exactly what he needs, I think.  But definitely. Some extra water (half a mL right after burping and stimulation is what I'm planning to start with) and some olive oil won't hurt him, from what everyone here has said. I'm also going to continue feeding them 9 mL each throughout the day and see if Lucille's weight improves tomorrow.

Truth be told, I'm glad we got them. I know being with Momma is ideal, but if we hadn't found them, I'm afraid they would have overheated. We live in Texas and the summers here are so harsh. Being in an insulated area in this heat can't be good for them. I imagine the temperature under the house where they were located is well over 100 degrees Fahrenheit. Either way, I'm Momma to them now. Whenever I burp them, they just look up at me and purr and purr and purr.

Oh! I'm feeling hints of teeth during feeding times. Lucille and Hercules both like to chew on my fingers while I refill the syringe, and there are these sharp, pointed bumps like teeth are about to come through. I also see spots of white. Nothing broken through the gum yet, but they're definitely going to soon. They're starting to prop themselves up on their feet. Halfway between crawling and walking. At what age does this start to happen? I'm trying to get a feel for when they'll be at the 3 week mark.

 

[commanderscott]

Got my grandmother to help feed the kitties. I'd brought it up earlier and she said no, but when I went to take them into the bathroom she told me to bring them out to the living room so she could help.She'd never done it before but she did very well. I showed her how to feed them (not to do it on their backs, to look out for milk coming from the nose, etc) and she got 3 mL into Hercules before I took over, because he hates the olive oil and squirmed an awful lot. We still got about 9 mL in him, though. It put her in an immensely good mood. She cuddled one while I got the other to do their bathroom stuff and just kept talking to them -- "You're so loud! You're a squirmer! You sure love to purr!" She still says that we're not keeping them, but I give it a few more weeks before she gives in and adores them.

Can I do olive oil and water every other feeding over the course of two days instead of every feeding for one day, like I'd planned? I notice that he pushed a lot of his food out of his mouth this time around because he didn't like it. It's not the change in formula, because he loved it earlier. I don't want him to lose out on formula because of the olive oil. So is that okay?

Lucille, by the way, ate a full 10 mL. She's a hungry little girl.

As promised, here are some pictures:

Hercules (shakily standing, but you can't see it)

hercules.JPG

• commanderscott
• Jul 30, 2016

Lucille (lying down because she's lazy, but she can stand too)

lucy.JPG

• commanderscott
• Jul 30, 2016

 

[Sarthur2]

You do not have to add oil to every feeding. A drop here and there will do.

Get a crate big enough to comfortably hold 2 adult cats with room to maneuver themselves.

The kittens will need to explore in your bedroom well before 6 weeks. And at some point they will want to start sleeping with you when they are big enough.

They can get worms and first vaccines at 8 weeks. Start putting money away to get them fixed too. Do you have a low-cost spay/neuter clinic nearby?

I'm glad your grandmother is helping to feed them! [emoji]128522[/emoji]

 

[commanderscott]

A drop here and there I will do, then! Thanks. (:

We'll get a crate for a medium to a large sized dog. I've decided on a wire one. That way I can see what they're doing. I have a large blanket to put over it at night to keep drafts out, as well. I can let them explore my bedroom at 3-4 weeks. The house, though, is a different story. We have our dogs out during the day and the cats out at night. (They stay in the cat room during the daytime, except for Shepard -- who isn't afraid of any of the dogs. She walks around all day every day.) And Stormy and Snow Cat do not like each other, let alone other cats. So I'll let them walk around at night time once they're big enough to run away from the other cats and hide if need be. As soon as I'm confident I won't roll over on them in the middle of the night, I'll let them sleep on my bed with me. I had Shepard trained to sleep by my head until she was big. I'm sure I can do the same with these two.

I'm not entirely certain if we have any low-cost spay/neuter clinics nearby, but I can find that out. My vet's pretty good about respecting financial limits and would be willing to help us find a place. And if not, I can call local shelters and ask what they think. We live near a pretty big city, so if not, we can head out there and see what we can find. I also need to get them microchipped.

Me too! She really loves them. Won't admit it, tells me "don't get used to it," but it made her really happy. Having Hercules purr for her was probably an experience she'd never had before.

 

[commanderscott]

Both were hungry enough for over 10 mL. They fell asleep right after. Still no BM from Herc. Just spotting after every meal like Lucy did. He'll have it by tomorrow night I'm sure. Plenty of urine though.

Do they gain and lose weight throughout the day? I know humans do. I weighed them again and they lost a little bit. I'm assuming that's why you weigh them the same time every day?

 

[Sarthur2]

That's correct about weighing at the same time. Just like we weigh more after eating, so will they. [emoji]128522[/emoji]

 

[commanderscott]

Perfect. I was just worried because they'd lost a bit of weight since earlier today. Thanks! I'll post a weight update tomorrow.

 

[Sarthur2]

Sounds good!

 

[commanderscott]

Was gonna update tomorrow but: We did it! Both kitties ate 12 mL this time, are sucking on the syringe, are peeing healthy amounts and clear urine, AND pooping. Triangle method + running warm water = major success. The olive oil and extra water didn't hurt either, I'm sure. I'm gonna do the triangle method after their 5 PM and 12 AM feedings every day until they can go by themselves. Hopefully that'll keep this from happening again.

EDIT

How will I know that they're starting to eliminate by themselves? Will I see that they've soiled their bedding or will their be other signs?

Goodness. This is like Kitten 101. I haven't had kittens since I was 16. 8 years ago. And even then Momma looked after them.

 

[StefanZ]

Ah, pooping!  Wonderful.  Im relieved!  Almost as Hercules is. 

  During the night I was going to advice to ask if you really hadnt no other decent kmr than this premade KMR.  And also, suggest to increase the oil ransone.   

But that isnt necessary, just to proceed...

How you notice they eliminate by themselves?  In a way, its quite comfortable they do eliminate when stimulated.  This way they are always clean and proper, no? Not even mentioning their surroundings.

Anyways, the real break comes when they begin to eat more solid cat foods, at that time they begin to use litter on their own...    You can of course begin to train them a little on usuing litter themselves before that.   Stimulate a little, and put in a shallow litter box  Just be sure its a non clumping litter, because kittens, alike babies tend to taste on everything.  And you dont want clumping litter inside them.

 

[StefanZ]

I was so worried because not too long ago we had to put another kitten to sleep due to digestive problems. Manx Syndrome killed her after a week with us. She wouldn't eat much. Wouldn't have BMs. Wouldn't pee much. But she played like crazy and I like to think we made her last week as positive as possible.

 

Yes, you surely did.   If anything is sure in this world, so this is.   RIP little one.

May I ask, exactly when this happened, when did she passed away?     May there be a connection between these two here happenings?

There IS a given connection: your first experience made you open for trying to help next kitten in need.  Which you did and do exemplary.

Im fishing if there may be more connections...

 

[commanderscott]

Awesome! I've got non-clumping, so we're good to go! won't be for another week though.

And I forget when Scottie passed away. I don't try to remember dates. 1 month ago? Maybe? Maybe 2? 1 sounds more accurate. I think the major connection is that both prove I like kitties. And I'm secretly a cat in a human's body. XD

Oh my goodness these two! I had to cut Lucille off at 15 mL. 15!!! That's over twice the amount you guys said she should be eating every feeding at 7 ounces! She always asks for more and more and more but I'm worried now that she's going to do herself harm if she keeps eating so much. I know it's been said that it's almost impossible to feed a growing kitten but I'm worried. What is a proper, realistic cut off point for their intake? I don't want her getting diarrhea or bloating from eating too much.

 

[StefanZ]

Oh my goodness these two! I had to cut Lucille off at 15 mL. 15!!! That's over twice the amount you guys said she should be eating every feeding at 7 ounces! She always asks for more and more and more but I'm worried now that she's going to do herself harm if she keeps eating so much. I know it's been said that it's almost impossible to feed a growing kitten but I'm worried. What is a proper, realistic cut off point for their intake? I don't want her getting diarrhea or bloating from eating too much.

As some healthy kittens do add more than 20g a day - practically a full oz not common but happens - it must means, these individuals do eat more then the average 8ml /oz, otherwise the perpetuum mobile would be created by nature itself. 

Cut down some if it feels safer, but probably its entirely OK to go on, if she is willing.

 

[StefanZ]

And I forget when Scottie passed away. I don't try to remember dates. 1 month ago? Maybe? Maybe 2? 1 sounds more accurate. I think the major connection is that both prove I like kitties. And I'm secretly a cat in a human's body. XD

If believieving in wandering of souls, along the lines the tibetan beliefs of their Lamas, 1 months is about perfect. 

2 months not probable, but I suppose possible for a hard believer... I myself  wouldnt make that connection.

 

[Sarthur2]

C commanderscott

Yes, when they begin going on their own you will see soiled bedding.

I would let Lucy eat as much as she wants. It means she's growing!

I'm so glad they are both pooping! [emoji]128077[/emoji]

 

[commanderscott]

Yes, StefanZ. I like that idea VERY much. ;~;

I'm worried because we got a new syringe. It's totally awesome; twist the cap and you can have it stop taking in liquids at 2.5, 5, 7, or 10 mL -- so it's four syringes in one. Super easy, incredibly accurate -- but I'm worried that Lucy is aspirating a little bit with how fast she eats. Can she do that to herself, or does that normally only happen when we feed them too fast? When I'm in control of the syringe it goes VERY slowly because I'm so careful, but when she's hungry she sucks out 5 mL in about a second flat. Not even her brother is that determined. On the one hand it's caused feeding times to go down from 1 hour to 20 minutes, but on the other hand there's so much milk around her mouth I can't tell if some of it comes from her nose or not.

If kitties only suck in as much as they can handle then I won't be worried. I'll let her eat as much as she likes and keep an eye out on diarrhea. She's not bloated and she's burping fine so I guess there's no immediate concern right now.

I'm just in shock. When we got them they wouldn't eat. Now they're more ravenous than any kitty I've ever seen. Not even Shepard ate this much!

 

[Sarthur2]

C commanderscott

It's normal as kittens get bigger and stronger that they suckle faster, thereby cutting down feeding time considerably. It also means they are hungry and have the system figured out!

If you are concerned, you can slow her down by pulling the syringe away from her periodically, or using a different one.

You can also begin mixing Gerber plain rice cereal into her formula. It will thicken the formula and offer additional nutrients.

 

[commanderscott]

We will look into that. Thanks!

Also. Lucille sneezes sometimes. Since she's not lethargic and her brother isn't sneezing I figured it's because she got something in her nose. But during this last feeding she was sneezing so hard my mother thought she was throwing up. I held her upside down and patted until it stopped but now I'm REALLY worried. She's eating fine, very strong. The sneezing is the only thing going on and it only happens while she eats. Ideas?