Oh, help! Can we fix a bad start?

[mountaincatlove]

We had a situation where two neutered, indoor only cats that have lived together since kittenhood suddenly devolved into screaming and fighting with each other when a neighbor's cat would come and stare in the door. Displaced aggression, it is called.

If you want to read the War-and-Peace version, it is here: Two Cats Suddenly Fighting Aggressively

Reader's Digest version: veterinarian prescribed diazipam (Valium) which my pharmacist compounded as a chicken flavored liquid that I just added to their canned food. Worked like magic / better living through chemistry. Vet does have one cat patient on Prozac but she feels that in most cases diazipam / Valium is superior treatment.

Had a couple of transient setbacks, quickly resolved with a couple of doses of diazipam. And now if the neighbor's cat shows up one of my cats screams at him while the other hides under my bed, then both calm down on their own and all is well. Desensitization.

Something completely different - approximately where in the Colorado Rockies are you? Have been on several North American Rock Garden Society meetings - Summit Lake up Mt Evans, outside Vail and Aspen. Last fall visited family in Purgatory (25 miles from Durango). Love the land above the tree line.

Hi, Catapault.
Your Valium-laced chicken is just what I would ask for, if I take this to a vet. I'm interested to have precise information to discuss. Thank you.

I live southwest of Denver, in the southern shadow of the Mt Evans Wilderness area, near where the Platte River passes the foot of the Kenosha Range of the Rockies on its way to Denver.

~D :rub:

 

[mountaincatlove]

I'm so glad I found your thread! I'm in a very similar position right now. I have a dominant cat who attacks and chases the other cat. The two have never gotten along. Like you, I don't expect them to cuddle, but I do wish that they could peacefully co-exist.

I'll be reading the suggestions.

Hell, Crazy4Strays
Welcome to the conversation. I hope you find something useful here. Feel free to comment.

~D :rub:

 

[crazy4strays]

OP, I'm currently trying the crate method for my fighting cats. It's described at the end of this article. I can actually crate both cats simultaneously without them being able to fight because I have a large dog crate with a divider in the middle. So far it's going pretty well.

http://www.catster.com/cat-behavior/stop-cats-fighting

 

[mountaincatlove]

Hi, CF4S

Thanks for that link. Interesting notion, I might consider it as the next step when they quit hissing and growling under the doors or through the windows separating them. I have a big, sunny room, Amber's favorite, in fact, where she has at least three special places in plain sight and several more we only guess at. She's been rejecting that room since Duncan arrived, probably because that's where they first ran into each other and the initial conflict happened.

I'm more encouraged today. We did the Feliway sock exchange last night and they slept in separate rooms with Comfort Zone diffusers in each room. They're both very mellow today. Amber is tucked into her "princess bed" (an old family joke related to the Princess and the Pea and the obscene luxury of Amber's very best suntime napping spot) napping in the sun in apparent bliss for the first time since Duncan's arrival, three months ago. I don't know how she feels about it, but I'm calling it major progress. She's out of my bedroom and apparently feeling unthreatened in an old favorite place. Moving forward . . . .there may be a large crate in our future.

~Deb :rub:

 

[margd]

This sounds great!  Fingers crossed that it is the beginning of even better things to come.

 

[mountaincatlove]

Latest installment of Amber vs. Duncan. What a stubborn pair of knotheads these guys are.

A spectacular failure of isolation occurred over the past weekend; they connected, and the fur flew. No apparent intent to injure from either one, though, just a noisy tussle which left many handfuls of fluffy blond fur floating around.

Amber played the affronted victim for a day or so, but seems to have mellowed significantly in the past day or two. I have Comfort Zone diffusers going in the two rooms where they have settled on spending most of their time and it's having an impact.

Duncan's rush at Amber the other day was his instinctive urge to pound another cat in what he has come to regard as his territory. Amber's ferocious response was her instinctive urge to defend what has always been her territory.

Then she tried to manipulate me with a refusal to even be baited into the house with favored treats, despite the heavy snowfall, crouching and genuinely trembling in apparent fear that I might try to pick her up and put her someplace. She gave up on that when the snow piled up on her back and finally came in with the lure of one piece of her favorite crunchy treat, liberally soaked in Rescue Remedy Pet, which apparently appeals to her taste buds. *sigh* Such a little drama queen.

I don't see how to modify this kind of behavior in two such dedicated territorial cats. Especially when The Man won't even discuss behavior mod. His father was an early grad student of BF Skinner at Indiana; my husband has had his behavior thoroughly modified since the day he was born and his disdain is deep-seated, probably insurmountable. He doesn't deliberately leave doors open to be obstructive of the plan, but is obviously annoyed by the various inconveniences imposed by necessary separation.

We've succeeded in teaching Duncan to play with the Cat Dancer. He was always an indoor cat before coming to us, had worn Soft Paws, and had no hunting or playing skills. My granddaughter told us he liked to chase a page from a magazine tied to a string, but that was the extent of his play/hunting experience. Now we can play to offer distraction when he wants to annoy Amber, another major advancement.

That having been said, yesterday and today the cats have been two rooms apart with a closed door between them. They are both behaving like happy, relaxed cats, sleeping away a snowy day that's too wet to play.

I don't think the crate routine is going to work with these guys. I've just about decided that, based on Amber's skittish, anxious behavior since forever, she has the kitty equivalent of a general anxiety disorder, aggravated currently by her territory issues with Duncan. It may be time to find a vet who will agree to lightly medicating her for anxiety, before we try any further integration of these guys.

Margd - above, somewhere, you mention that Duncan sounds like a charmer. Perfect word. He is a charming fellow, I'm utterly besotted with him. They WILL learn to live and let live.

~Deb :rub:

 

[hbunny]

I wanted to jump in and let you know I'm in the same boat, just maybe on a lake instead of a stormy sea, and to reiterate what everyone else has said about being patient.

My story isn't encouraging, but I want to let you know you aren't alone. YOU ARE NOT ALONE! 

I have resigned to maybe not make it "work", but to reach that "cordial hatred" stage would be great in my book.  I don't expect them to be best friends ever, to coexist would be enough for me, but it's really up to them.  There are (I hate to admit) honestly people in this world that I don't think I could ever coexist with, so I try to have realistic expectations with them haha!

I have a new-to-indoor-life 2 year old recently neutered male (Shortstack) and a 12 year old neutered butthole named Wurp.  Wurp is HIGHLY territorial, always has been.  Wurp is the aggressor in my household, and I've just resigned myself to be patient and let Wurp accept things in his own time.  In the meantime, I'm getting Shortstack comfortable and adapted to living indoors.  Wurp's my baby (even if he is a butthole) and Stack is my snuggle buddy.  I wouldn't give up either one, so we are going to work this out!

I'm into my second month of total separation and site swapping.  I have two of those Feliway Multi-Cat diffusers going.  I tried two calming collars on Wurp--they actually work!--but he started losing his hair underneath it.  He is allergic to a lot of things, so I had to stop the collar.  The Sargeant, IMO, was much better than the Sentry brand, but his poor fur came out!  Rescue Remedy drops help Wurp as well, but he gets pretty lethargic and then I feel guilty that I'm drugging him.  But I do use it when he gets worked up at Shortstack's bedroom door and steam comes out of his ears.

Be patient and just keep on keepin' on, as Joe Dirt would say.  And come here and read.  This site has helped me keep my hair through all of this!!  Everyone is wonderful here.  I look forward to your updates (so I know I'm not alone!)

 

[margd]

Thanks for the update on Duncan and Amber.  I was so hoping to hear they were getting along better.  You're in a real bind when everyone in the house isn't cooperating with the behavior modification, although I can kind of understand why there might be some resistance given The Man's past bad experiences.  It's good to hear Duncan is getting more in touch with his Inner Hunter and that play is a way to distract him from going after Amber. That's a victory, right there.  You might be right about the medication, though.  I know how much you hate the idea but at this point, it seems like a logical next step.  Your idea of a very light dose while you integrate them makes a lot of sense.  Hopefully, Amber wouldn't need to take it for very long.  Fingers crossed for improvements!  

 

 

[mountaincatlove]

Thanks for the encouragement, both of you.

I keep telling myself that some day the Universe will quit raining on my head and the cats will be my biggest problem. That's the day I'm impatient for. Then I tell myself to knock off the pity party , but I refuse to speculate on how much worse it could be. Been there, done that, got too many T-shirts.

Pain in the butt though they are right now, I adore my kitties, the little devils. :catguy: As rough as they are making life, I couldn't stand it if I couldn't grab one for a cuddle when I really feel like crying.

hbunny, I'm not at all sure which of us has it worse. I don't want to think about how much worse this might be if I were trying to make either of these guys an indoor cat who wants to go out. Sometimes, letting one of them out is the only way to avoid actual conflict. Sometimes, it's the only way I can stay sane and not entertain thoughts of murdering a cat. Amber, particularly, would be much harder to handle if she couldn't escape through the bedroom window and go terrorize some tiny bit of wildlife.

She's a lousy hunter and makes more empty lunges than successful catches, but she's welcome to all the mice she can catch. We live in the mountains and would be overrun with tiny rodents if the cats didn't get outside to get them before the rats get into the house. They'll be up from their winter naps, with fresh litters to feed, any day now. No mice in the house.

I don't envy your particular circumstances, wouldn't trade mine for yours. Good luck, patience, and persistence. Stay in touch, we'll compare notes on progress. :cross:

~Deb :rub:

 

[hbunny]

I will! I think my newbie is starting to really like the indoor life. He doesn't even go near the door anymore. He's a chunky love bug. Trust me, I have all but sat in the floor and cried some days. My hubby works periods away from home too. He's out of state this whole week. He is, however, completely on board and careful not to let them be together right now. I'm hoping one day soon Wurp will accept he's here to stay, and stop thinking he's a threat to his territory. It's a game now as to who can hold out the longest, me or him. I'll win!

 

[mountaincatlove]

So, we're well into four months now with this project and I think the answer is, "No, we can't fix this, not if the cats don't want it fixed." And these cats don't want to fix anything, thank you very much, stupid human. Nothing to fix, from their perspective. They hate each other, they fight, they're cats, it's what they do.

That's not to say there has been no improvement, but they still can't be left in the same room together for so much as a moment. Duncan, the intruder, has become our favorite cat ever, except for this one annoying little thing about him - he still wants to hunt and find Amber, the aggrieved resident kitty, and pound her.

They had a physical confrontation about three weeks ago and we missed their small injuries for a couple of days. Amber apparently bit Duncan's paw, it swelled and was sore. When we noticed his limp, we saw the swollen paw and used our usual routine for such injuries. We cleaned it with peroxide and treated it with Chinese wound powder. In a couple of days it opened and bloody pus drained out on the towel he'd been sleeping on, and the next day it was fine. Duncan tore a deep scratch in Amber's chest which had bled and scabbed before we discovered it. Nothing to do but help her get rid of the scab with peroxide, but it damaged her trust in us that we would keep her safe from him and we returned to square one with her. She spent a couple of days under our bed, crawling out only to eat and drink, refusing to socialize with us, no petting allowed. She was really angry with us.

Three weeks later and Amber is sunning herself on the foot of the bed, out in the open, although if Duncan were to wander past the door, she would slither under the bed immediately. But she comes out sooner, without being coaxed or baited and resumes whatever she was doing before she saw him.

For his part, Duncan has fully recovered from the bitten paw and seems to love his new life here, if only that little red stripey cat would quit hissing and growling at him just because he wants to slap her a round a little. Cats. SMH.

We were feeling very oppressed by the isolation imposed on us by having to isolate the cats. Small house, small spaces, not at all ideal for what we're up to with these little guys. We talked about the crate in the main room idea and decided, for a variety of reasons related to the structure and arrangement of the house, that it just won't work here, not even for a few weeks. It looks to be months to years before these cats stop it with this stuff, so the crate just isn't an option.

We made the best decision yet last weekend. We bought a baby gate, the stretchy wooden slat kind. Amber spends most of her time in our bedroom, just off the kitchen/main living area. The gate goes cross that door. She has food, water, a litter box, and access to outside by way of the sliding window, long her favorite way to come and go. She hardly knows what a door is for.

I spend a lot of time with her during the day - I have fibromyalgia and some chronic pain problems. She'll sit near me on the bed while I read or knit, resting between other household projects and chores. She's never been a cuddler, doesn't want to be held to speak of, only grudgingly allows scratching and petting and only when she wants it. It's the way she's always been, so she's really back to her normal self - paranoid, hysterical, anxious and only slightly friendly, only on her terms, although she has settled down some with Comfort Zone diffusers in the two rooms where she spends all her indoor time.

Duncan has the run of the house but is allowed in the bedroom when we're both home and my husband helps,keep him from diving under the bed to tussle with Amber. If he's mellow enough, he'll lie there on the bed between us and nap as we read or watch TV after dinner and cleanup are done.

We try to alternate who spends the night with us in the bedroom, but it can be hard to get Amber out from under the bed to sleep in another room, so unfortunately, she gets the alpha cat's share of time in the most desireable place at nice, but with the gate up, Duncan doesn't seem to mind and it's easier on us.

Odd thing about the gate. Duncan is a Maine Coon, can easily stand with his paws atop the gate, could levitate over it in a heartbeat if he wanted to. He obviously regards as an impassable barrier, though. He pushes at it, has tried to squeeze through and found that to be impossible, tries to dart in around a person entering or leaving the room (no success - we're still bigger than he is), but it has apparently never occurred to him to just push off and float over it.
I get so excited about the small triumphs.

I'm aware that this is the opposite of the desired situation where the resident kitty keeps the freedom of the house and the unfriendly intruder is isolated. The cats, largely anxious little Amber, have arranged it this way. I think this is as good as it gets for a while, and that's ok for now.

~Deb :rub:

 

[crazy4strays]

I feel for you. I know how hard it is!

One change that I've made recently is that I removed the bed frames from my room and my son's room and put the mattresses directly on the floor. Now that the less dominant cat doesn't have as many beds to hide under, he tends to stand up for himself more instead of running to hide under the bed, and I've noticed that they tend to initially hiss and maybe swipe at each other and then back off. They can eat together without causing WW III.

I don't expect them to ever be best friends. I would probably wonder if it was time for a psychiatric evaluation or something if they started licking each other. 

 But I'm reasonably confident now that they're not a danger to each other. The fighting and dominance seems to have decreased, since the less dominant cat started to stand up for himself.

 

[hbunny]

Just did the catching up on your situation!  I have, as they say, been busier than a cat trying to cover poo on a tile floor....so I'm behind on everything.

Wanted to say I'm proud of Duncan for respecting the baby gate.  After 8 weeks of separation we let our two gladiators see each other through 3 stacked baby gates this weekend.

Wurp promptly yowled at Shortstack and scaled all 3 baby gates like Spiderman.

So back to scent and site-swapping for us we go.

Wurp is almost deaf, so he can't hear Shortstack chirping and purring at him.  He just goes full-on battle mode.  It's a challenge, but I'm not giving up yet!

They DO play footsies under the bedroom door without hissing now...at least I have that going for me.

 

[mountaincatlove]

Yeah, well, as usual when I think we've made an epic leap forward, one of them makes a liar out of me.

We were watchng TV last night with Duncan just outside the bedroom, seemingly asleep, the gate across the door. Amber knew he was there, so she was under the bed. Suddenly, Duncan moved, stuck his nose under the gate and tossed his head. The gate fell on him, he clambered out and darted under the bed almost before we knew he was in motion.

Great hissing and spitting uproar from under the bed, Amber yowling and Duncan steadfastly refusing to back off. Squirt bottle diplomacy seemed the only option for breaking it up without anybody getting hurt.

A soggy Duncan, being the aggressor, was removed to the sunroom and exiled for the night.

I thought we had another serious set-back with weeks of work to restore Amber's trust and confidence, yet again. I think it must be upsetting me more than the cats. This morning, Amber is lounging comfortably on the bed, stretching and turning to follow the sun as it works its way across the room. I can hear her snoring and squeaking from a couple of feet away.

Duncan immediately tried to dislodge the gate when he was released from the sunroom, so we each held him and had a little chat with him about his undesireable behavior, and returned him to exile. This cat has what we call a flat learning curve.

And now he's dancing on the piano - I swear it's the only piano in existence built without a keyboard cover. That's the signal that he's about to start trying to shred the door. Don't worry - it's metal, but I need to go see what he needs.



I love the little guys. I love the little guys. I love the little guys.

~Deb :rub:

 

[mountaincatlove]

Time for an update.

Duncan arrived just over six months ago. He's all settled in, very alpha cat-like, owns the house and says so.

Yesterday, my husband and I stapled up a poster near our rural mailbox stand, with a photo of Amber, asking "Have you seen me? My people miss me. If you know where I am, please call . . . ."

She went out one sunny Friday two weeks ago and we haven't seen her since. She was hiding in an outbuilding on our property, an old chicken shed we use for storage. She chases mice and chipmunks in there and it isn't unknown for her to spend a night there, or two or even three, if the weather is warm and the moon is full as it was just over two weeks ago. We weren't too concerned at first.

The weather went nasty a day or two after she went out, thunderstorms and hail and pounding rain. It's been like that pretty much since then, a nice day here and therre, but mostly wet and loud and not Amber's favorite time to be out.

I have feared she would move out with the arrival of warmer weather, and it seems that's exactly what's happened. Duncan the Bully won. He drove her out. Her naturally anxious, skittish nature is keeping her away. Or a neighbor found her and thinks she's rescuing a half-drowned cat.

Amber is microchipped, so the chip alert has been activated and I'm still hopeful. :cross:

This is not how this rescue was supposed to go. I am not happy. Duncan will never be my favorite cat.

As soon as the Coast Guard moves my daughter from the Maine Coon cat-lethal climate of Hawai'i, Duncan the Bully moves out of Amber's house. Unfortunately, that move isn't scheduled any time soon.

 

[margd]

I'm really sorry to hear that Amber ran away.  I really hope you find her soon and that in the meantime someone is taking good care of her.  You did everything you could to make these introductions work - I don't know of anyone who was more patient.  I can understand why you feel some resentment towards Duncan - I'd probably feel the same, even knowing that he was simply being a cat and not really to blame.  

Don't give up hope on finding Amber.  TCS members have had lost kitties return months later, some on their own and some because of posters and ads.  Fingers crossed Amber is home with you soon.  

 

[mountaincatlove]

Thanks, marg, for the empathy and encouragement.

I really do think Amber's around somewhere close, just too freaked out by the violent weather to come home. I used to joke about needing kitty Valium to get her through the thunderstorm season; I wish it had been a real routine, well-established by now.

Yeah, I am resentful of Duncan the bully and I feel badly about it. I try not to communicate it to him, but it's hard to cuddle and skritch and scratch affectionately when in my mind, I see Amber huddled in a corner of the chicken coop in the rain, frightened by the hail pounding on the metal roof.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a scruffy, thin Amber toddling up the path from the the little stream downhill some day in late summer, as if she had never been away. She's an odd little cat, always has been. It could happen.

 

[mountaincatlove]

Results already from the sign we posted at the mailboxes - a neighbor uphill called to report having seen an unfamiliar "orange tabby" yesterday. She described a short-haired brightly colored cat who bustled away at the sight of the neighbor. Sounds just like Amber.

This means she's less than a city block from home, as I hoped and suspected, just refusing to come home, or coming home when we aren't aware of her because we're sleeping or at the opposite end of the house and not hearing her pathetically tiny voice, a long-time problem.

I'm encouraged and less anxious about her, just impatient for her to decide to brave The Bully and come home.

~Deb :rub:

 

[margd]

That's good news and you must be so relieved.   I know some people put out motion sensor cameras when they are checking on lost cats or on traps. Maybe something like that might tell you if she is coming back and when she does so.  That way you might be on the spot to rescue her.  At least you know she is still around - that's really such terrific news.  

 

[mountaincatlove]

OK, here's the post I've been waiting to make.

The Princess returneth. And in pretty good shape for two and a half weeks in the rough. She is indeed a little less round, but healthy. Her fur and teeth look good, her pads are no rougher than usual and she's quite clean, doesn't look like she has been more than damp in recent days, like everything. She's snoring happily beside me as I type.

My husband was driving slowly in the neighborhood, looking for her. He saw her unmistakeable form leap through some rye grass and disappear into a culvert where we have seen her hanging out in the past, just a few yards from the front door.

I went out with a bag of her favorite treats while The Man corraled and isolated The Bully. I lured Amber out of the culvert with small handfuls of food. It took about twenty minutes before she was all the way out, several feet from the opening, and letting me touch her. Suddenly, she was demanding to be touched with both hands and rolling in the wet sand of the driveway. She let me scoop her up and tuck her into my T shirt to carry her into the house without incident.

Amber has been grounded, no more outside excursions. She doesn't know it yet, but we'll deal with that later. The Bully is isolated and confined out of sight until further notice. Not sure yet how we're going to manage to keep them from seeing each other, but at least she's home and safe. Crisis averted, drama over. Move along, folks, nothing to see here.

For now.

I love happy endings.
~D :rub: