Oh, help! Can we fix a bad start?

[mountaincatlove]

Our 9-year-old, 8-lb princess golden tabby has forgotten her early days here when she shared the house with a dignified old tuxedo dude who loved her and she returned the affection. He's been gone for several years and she wants to continue to be the only cat in the house.

Our daughter rescued a gorgeous cat from a shelter in Kodiak, Alaska, a couple of years ago. Probably half Maine Coon, he got all the Maine Coon plush fur and he's twice the size of our little golden girl; he also wants to be the only cat in the house.

Daughter was transferred last summer from Kodiak to Honolulu, where the blond flash in the double fur coat got sick in the heat and humidity, growing lethargic, not eating, and losing weight. Aftr six months of decline, the vet said get him off the island. "MOM!!!!!!!!!"

So, we took him in last month. Knowing both cats, we anticipated a tough introduction and prolonged break-in period, but we've successfully integrated many cats and a few dogs into the household over the years. We thought we knew how to do it. We had the safe room, the separate food and water stations, litter boxes, and bedding spots.

The poor little guy had endured 20 hours in a travel crate with food, water, and a fleece blankie whch reeked of ammonia by the time we collected hm for the further 3-1/2 hours it took to drive home from the airport.

When we got home, I unlocked the door and headed immediately for the prepard safe room, not aware that the resident cat had winkled open a door and got into the entry room, definitely not part of the plan.

Simultaneously, my husband forgot the whole plan in his desire to free the new cat from the urine-soaked crate and popped the lock on the crate.

New cat (neutered male 2-year-old) dashed at resident cat (neutered female 8-year-old known to be high-strung and skittish). Resident cat crouched, hissing, spitting, and growling, but not rolling in submission. New cat reached out, delivering three quick swats to the little girl's butt. She shrieks and flees into the house proper, diving under the bed.

We capture the newbie and take him to safe room, but it's all beside the point now.

Five weeks later, they have yet to agree to disagree and let each other be, even if at opposite ends of the house. He's a bully, stalking her specifically to harrass her. She's only too happy to instigate conflict by growling and hissing for no reason, just because she saw him pass by the room she's in, safely behind a fort of pillows. That draws him into the room to respond and I'm in the middle with a squirt bottle.

I began using Rescue Remedy Pet drops about three days ago. We get through about six or seven hours at night without uproar, but I spend the rest off the day shuffling cats from one isolation zone to another, letting one out while the other comes in by a different door. I'm exhausted and while I don't mean to complain, these stubborn cats are not even the biggest problem I have right now, but they aren't contributing anything to improving the various situations we find ourselves in right now.

Obviously, my 8-year-old tabby beauty isn't going anywhere. We've become very attached to the big guy, a gorgeous pale blond flash of fur and muscle and don't want to have to look for a suitable home for him, which would be very hard to find in our area.

I need suggestions/advice/recommendations/success stories about integrating two cats who can't stand to be in the same room together. I'm not looking to make them BFFs, they don't have to cuddle and groom each other they way other cats have. I just want cordial hatred and mutual avoidance.

HELP!

 

[margd]

I hope someone who is an expert in cat introductions will come along, but I am wondering if it might be best if you prevented them from having any contact at all right now.  That would involve starting the integration process back from the beginning.  The following article might have some ideas for you.
[article="32680"]How To Successfully Introduce Cats The Ultimate Guide  [/article]
Another idea is to experiment a little more with the calming agents available.  Feliway makes a diffuser and spray that emits a calming pheromone into the air and Composure makes calming treats and liquid.  Nature's Miracle also makes a calming spray.  

Hopefully someone more familiar with introductions that I am will give you the voice of experience but perhaps the above is a place to start.  Good luck! 

 

[mountaincatlove]

Thank you, Margd. Thoughtful advice, just what I was hoping for.

Since yesterday, they have been more or less isolated in the daytime. Amber chooses to go out immediately in the morning and comes back after dark, while Duncan seems content to hang out with me, watching me knit. He occasionally goes on patrol in hopes of rustling up a tiny coppery cat to pound, but I'm keeping them away from each other as much as possible, given the other problematic circumstances complicating all of it.

I read some of the posts on cat behavior on this forum earlier today. One that struck me talked about the cats picking up on my stress and anxiety. I have to admit this is a time of year of high stress and anxiety levels because of my husband's annual three-week sales trip. It's worse this year because of frozen pipes and a non-functional temporary water system, forcing me to fill jugs of water at the neighbors' house and haul it home. Showers and laundry require imposing further on the neighbors. There is no end date on this headache and I'm very concerned about telegraphing all this to the already anxious and unhappy cats.

I will look for other pheromones and calming products. Amber accepts Rescue Remedy Pet quite readily, likes it on tiny crunchy treats or in a small bowl of water. She curls up and sleeps for hours. It has no effect on Duncan, however. He's so much bigger than Amber, I might not have hit the ideal therapeutic dose for his weight.

I'm sure there is an answer, this can be fixed. Starting over may be the best way to regain Amber's trust and integrate Duncan into the family unit.

I'm not giving up.

 

[margd]

I do not envy you having to cope without water. 

  That's really awful - having to lug jugs of water in the freezing cold can't be fun.  Don't slip! 

I'm glad to hear you aren't giving up.  You're absolutely right that they pick up on our emotions, though anyone would be very stressed out going through what you are right now.  Is there anyway to keep Duncan in his safe room for awhile so he doesn't see Amber at all?  I don't know how people integrate cats who also are going inside and out - I've only read about integrating inside only cats.  I'll be very interested to see how you work it out! 

I'm glad to hear the Rescue Remedy is working, at least for Amber.  That's something, anyway!  

 

[MoochNNoodles]

I agree with separating them completely and starting over.  It's not unheard of for the introduction process to take several months.  That is considered normal even.  For some cats; patience really is essential in getting them to a point of coexistence.  

 

[mountaincatlove]

Hi, MoochnNoodles.

I appreciate your input. My brother lives with a couple of cats acquired years apart. The senior cat was a feral hanging around my brother's office, which my brother had spent months and months taming until the cat moved into the building. After many more months, the cat cautiously allowed himself to be installed in the house. A few years later, a new young cat appeared. That was eight years ago and my brother still describes the relationship between the two cats as one of "cordial hatred." The senior cat has accepte the inerloper, finally, but never lets an opportunity pass to remind the younger dude who's the alpha cat.

I've done this before with other cats and even brought dogs, a pair of Irish wolfhounds, no less, into the mix with less difficulty and stress for all. I think my problem is the suddenness of Duncan's need, or more likely, my daughter's need to be free of him and the special headache he represented in Hawaii, the very lousy timing in the dead of winter, piled on top of the water struggles. Did I mention that I haul several loads of split wood daily, to feed the only heat source, a wood stove that demands almost as much care and feeding as the cats? OK, small exaggeration, but it's a major daily chore.

Regarding starting over with absolute isolation, while I agree would be ideal, at this point, 6 weeks in, it represents another layer of stress piled on the problem.

Amber is very set in her ways and unwilling to make changes to benefit anything but her own fear and insecurity. She refuses to cruise the house, nestling into any of many favorite afternoon spots perfect for sun naps. Instead, she cowers behing the curtains in one of many wide windowsills, designed with her in mind when we remodeled a couple of years ago.
She eats less, obviously fearing an ambush attack if she lets down her already hypervigilant stance. Not that less eating is totally bad - she could stand to lose half a pound or so, but not this way.

The real problem, Margd, is keeping Amber from seeing Duncan, not the reverse. He would pounce on her in a heartbeat, swat at her a few times and stroll off. Amber's hissing and growling on mere sight of Duncan is the problem. He wouldn't even notice her if she didn't draw attention to herself by being aggressively snotty for no reason. She has had the total run of the house for almost five years; he's clearly the intruder, but with an alpha attittude.

I can't begin to imagine how to restrict her to one room with no view or outside access. She would shred the door in a couple of days of steady scratching.

 

[margd]

Usually when you introduce a new cat to a home, the new cat goes in the safe room, not the resident cat.  But I get the impression Amber would just attack the door , so that might not help much.   I can't imagine how you are managing everything going on right now between what's going on with the cats and the need to haul wood and water.  You are an inspiration, truly! 

If starting over with the introductions isn't practical, it may be that the calming aids represent the best opportunity to resolve this.  Feliway might be your best option, although I think it takes awhile for the diffusers to start working and they are expensive, with each diffuser only covering a fairly limited area - I believe it's 500 to 700 sq feet.   Here is their website:  I note they also have a product called Multicat that is specifically for cat conflicts so this might be worth checking out.  http://www.feliway.com/us/  Just a note:  members report that amazon has the best prices.

There are also calming collars available that might help Amber.  These also emit calming pheromones and the theory is that because they are closer to the cat's nose, the cat receives a more consistent dose.  Unfortunately, some of them have bad reputations because they are covered with powder that gets everywhere and they are not break-away, which is dangerous.  You might consider starting a thread asking for advice on calming collars to see if anyone can recommend one that doesn't have these problems. 

Good luck with this.  And please take care of yourself! 

 

[mountaincatlove]

Margd, the original plan called for Duncan, the newbie to go to the safe room, as you say. Had that happened, I'm not sure Amber would have attacked the door. She has never had any interest in the room and doesn't like being on the other side of a closed door. She might have sniffed, turned around, and walked away. Unknowable.

She has essentially isolated herself for the past couple of days by going outside as soon as I'm awake and remaining outdoors until after dark, when she comes to the bedroom window. There is a window seat there with a "safe space" created from a pile of pillows. She eats there, drinks water treated with Rescue Remedy Pet, bathes herself, then curls up to sleep for the evening.

Our weather has moderated, with sunny day temps getting up to near 50F. Amber has lots of secret undercover places on the property and I don't worry about her being out all day. She would be even without Duncan here.

Duncan seems more resistant to the calming effects of Rescue Remedy. I'm going to have to investigate the diffuser system, I think. We have a small house, two should cover the main areas the cats normally inhabit.

As for the wood and water, I haul wood every day. We have heated with wood exclusively for 30 years, no big deal. It's the water that's the killer. This episode has made me so aware of the blessings of indoor plumbing and plentiful clean water. I may be spending more time and energy than I would prefer dragging around jugs and tanks and bottles of water, but at least I have access to as much as I can bear to tote around.

I can tell you exactly how much water I need to bathe and wash my short hair - I've got it down to 5 gallons. I can wash dishes from a day's worth of three meals for two, including pots and pans, in just barely 4 gallons, if I'm careful not to use too much soap.

And as I type this, Amber is cleaning her pristine golden toes deep in her pillow fort. Duncan is lying across my feet, about 3ft away from Amber. He's as tense as a spring, ready to leap over the pillows and pound her. I have the squirt bottle at my elbow and have already gently threatened him with a squirt fired across the top of his head. Maybe we'll have a peaceful evening and I can read the new book I just started. Maybe . . .

 

[mountaincatlove]

I'm following the popular suggestion to completely isolate the two cats and start over.

It isn't easy due to structural issues with this house. For example, a section of the house forms an L-shape with windows from the bedroom and the main living area at right angle to each other. The cats both love sitting in the large windows with their wide sills. They can sit in opposite windows with two closed doors between them and still see each other. Of course, they can smell each other, so there's really no hiding them from one another, just keeping them separate.

At night, Amber sleeps in the bedroom with me, still wanting the safety of her pillow fort in the window seat. She won't sleep exposed on the bed. I am now keeping the door closed, giving Duncan the run of the house, but no way to run into Amber.

I spoke yesterday with a local lady who consults on behavioral problems. She recommended a homeopathic herbal calming agent, blended for Amber, to help with her underlying tendency to be high-strung and anxious. Always has been, even after successfully integrating into this household several years ago with a resident older cat she came to love and felt safe with. The herb blend should be in tomorrow's mail; I'm hopeful, looking for positive impact.

She also recommended some dietary changes for both cats. Improved nutrition never hurts.

The past couple of nights have been quiet. I spend the days shuffling cats from one room to another, letting one out and the other one in by another door. It's busy, but more peaceful than it's been in weeks.

Pictures and a short, funny video of Duncan are coming.

Thanks, everyone, for reading and commenting.

 

[MoochNNoodles]

I hope the calming agent helps!  I have had some success with calming treats for my cat who over-grooms.  

Smelling each other and even seeing each other without being able to touch can be a good way to help them get used to each other.  

I don't envy your situation; it doesn't come with a simple or straightforward solution!

Please keep us updated!

 

[mountaincatlove]

OK, almost two weeks into New Cat Intro 2.0 and this is going to be one very s-l-o-w adaptation. Amber, the resident cat, still hisses and growls at the sight of Duncan, the newbie.
He still can't resist the instinct to rush at her, and at twice her size, it must terrify her when he does it.

Because of structural issues with the house, it just isn't possible to keep them from seeing each other, but they haven't been in the same room together for almost three weeks.

He's fine when she isn't around. He's cuddly, he purrs, he's very sweet with us. He simply wants to chase the little copper kitty half his size.

She has taken to living in the bedroom, literally fights tooth and claw to avoid being moved to anyplace but out the bedroom window, her long-established favorite way to come and go. She wants to be fed in the bedroom, wants water here, The behavior counselor says do what makes her feel safe. My brother, equally practiced at cat behavior, says she's "workin' me", manipulating me. She knows I'm upset and, ever the opportunist, she's making the most of it. My brother has always been a cynic. So are his cats.

My husband gets home next week from three weeks at a gem and mineral show. We'll see how long it takes before he forgets to close a door and the cats meet hot and three weeks of steady work at this project gets set back three weeks. Last year, I refinished furniture while he was gone. That may have been more fun.

So, I guess we'll keep on keepin' on. Never in the same room together, not a tough one to manage, as long as The Man cooperates. Never outside at the same time, a little harder, but doable. One sleeps in our bedroom at night with the door closed, the other has the run of the house and they trade off from one night to the next. May take months, but what else have I got to do but herd cats all day?

Thanks to all for the warm welcome to the community and for the useful suggestions. i am much reassured that we can recover from the ugly start. S-L-O-W-L-Y.

I do so love the little stinkers. :rub:

 

[mountaincatlove]

Time for an update; lots of things have happened and changed.

I consulted with a cat behaviorist relatively local to me, about 65 miles away. She had tips and suggestions much like the ones you all recommended, and "prescribed" flower essence blends tailored to the cats' personalities and individual behavioral needs.

After two weeks of separation, two bottles of custom-blended flower essences, and many hours of retraining play, Amber, the resident aggrieved party, had chosen to isolate herself in my bedroom, refusing to leave even for food and water. Duncan, the intruder, had gained the run of the house by default and was actively stalking Amber, pouncing at any opportunity. (Duncan, BTW, is also very resistent to the notion of play, even with attractive stick toys, similar to the Cat Dancer - 2 ordered and due to arrive any day. I don't think he hunts when he's out and appeared utterly fascinated the other day, watching through the window as Amber stalked, caught, and unfortunately ate a small bird. She usually goes for mice, and that's just fine, but it's a bit early and cold for them to be moving around yet. My daughter kept Duncan indoors with Soft Paws to protect her furniture; I'm not at all sure the dude can hunt. So, how to entice him into the play part of Pam Johnson-Bennett's hunt (play), feast (treat or last feeding of the day, groom, sleep cycle of modifying behavior?)

Hostilities never went beyond Duncan making a few random whacks at Amber's rapidly retreating rear, but much howling and growling and hissing gave the impression of impending murder. It usually ended with Amber demanding escape to the outdoors by way of the window in the winow seat where her pillow fort was constructed. She would refuse to come home for hours and usually had to be coaxed in with food. BTW, we live at 8300 ft in the Rockies and the daytime temps haven,t been much above 40* at best for weeks, teens or lower at night, but she always comes home at night. She just prefers to huddle in the sun at 20* than share the house with the detestable intruder.

Obviously, the situation couldn't go on as it was. Dramatic change was again necessary, New Cat Introduction 2.0.1. We all know how often upgrades require patches, yeah???

I bought Pam Johnson-Bennett's book, Starting From Scratch. Then I bought Feliway diffusers. I am awaiting the arrival of new training toys, should be here today or tomrrow.
I also ordered Feliway spray so I can start doing the scent-swap with a treated sock. I think it may be my best hope of desensitizing Amber to the frightening Duncan.

They have been completely isolated from one another for over a week. It's impossible to keep them from seeing each other from time to time, a condition of the house's architecture, but since the arrival of the Feliway diffusers, Amber is less anxious and exhibits much less hostility when she does see Duncan through two windows, across a small patch of rock garden. She willingly entered the house by the front door yesterday - OK, I had to prop the door open and bait her in with food, but she walked in on her own without being carried for the first time since Duncan arrived. Progress?

In a reversal of everybody's recommendations, both here and in Pam's book, Amber, the intmidated resident cat, has chosen to isolate herself and give Duncan, the intruder, the run of the house. For the past three weeks, Amber has restricted herself to my bedroom. As of Sunday, she moved to the lower level of the house, a workshop of sorts, storage, a disused former greenhouse, unheated. We're still in the 'teens at night in temperatures, but that's where she refuses to come up from. *sigh*

Duncan is a delight, a big, furry, friendly guy who loves to cuddle and has a magnificent purr.
Amber is anxious, nervous, not much of a cuddler except on her terms, and is only somewhat less so than when we adopted her almost six years ago.

Does anybody have any recommendations for the next step with this creature? She's always been skittish, I now suspect she was closer to feral than we were led to believe and that we've spent the past six years civilizing her with only partial success. How do we integrate these guys?

I'm hanging my hopes on the Feliway sock desensitization, combined with continued isolation. I'm always open to suggestions. Please, any suggestions. :frusty:

~Deb
:rub:

 

[paiger8]

 I just want cordial hatred and mutual avoidance.

This is random, but I wanted to say you're a fantastic writer. I was giggling throughout your post; I could just picture it all happening. The line above was my favorite.

Have you tried scent swapping? Rubbing a cloth on one cat (especially the face) and then rubbing that cloth on the other cat? Then vice versa with another cloth? Then they can get used to each other's smell. 

 

[margd]

You are really dedicated to making this work - bless you for that!  Considering everything else you have going on, having to deal with Amber's skittishness on top of it all has to be stressful as all get out.  She is one unique kitty, that's for sure.  

I'm wondering:  at what point do you consider medication?  I don't know if it's appropriate or not, considering that Amber is really just being her somewhat feral self but it might help bring some peace into your world. And ideally, she wouldn't have to take it forever.  The medications vets use are the same ones as used for humans: the anti-anxiety medications and anti-depressants.  
[article="30323"]Anti Anxiety Medication For Cats  [/article]
The anti-depressant usually mentioned is prozac although I've seen reports of zoloft and amitriptyline (Elavil) as well.  The advantage to prozac is it's available as a transdermal gel so you don't have to go through pilling, if that's a problem with Amber.   

 Anyway, it looks like you've got more things to try before you get to that point - I just wanted to mention it as a last resort.

Duncan sounds like an absolute charmer, btw.  

 

 

[mountaincatlove]

Thank you, paiger, for your kind comments.

I've read about scent swapping and am eagely awaiting the delivery of a bottle of Feliway spray, probably today. I've been very impressed with the reduction in hostility since I installed a couple of Comfort Zone diffusers, so I have high expectations for the spray-the-sock routine.

 

[mountaincatlove]

Margd-
I don't know if and when I would consider real medication. I'm not rejecting the notion out of hand, but it is definitely a last-resort option.

If I were to do it, I would probably go towards treating Amber's obvious anxiety. I have anxiety-related problems myself, related to current life circumstances rather than an underlying emotional disorder. I see Amber's problem as an emotional disorder which may some day require treatment. After talking with local folk about area vets, I think my next step would be to take her to a guy who has success with acupuncture in cats. I can't imagine it, having used acupuncture myself with great results, but if this vet can get a cat to hold still for being stuck with tiny needles, I'm almost talked into giving it a try.

I don't like the notion of Prozac because it messes with neurotransmitter production and function. I suffered seriously disordered cognitive abilities while taking Prozac and similar antidepressants. I refuse to risk creating even more disorder in Amber's unhappy little brain chemistry by fussing with serotinin. Too scary. I am willing to consider feline-dosage of whatever benzodiazepine vets use for anxiety, though. It would be short term, safer for the brain, and easier to taper off when she's ready. Last resort.

~Deb :rub:

 

[margd]

Margd-
I don't know if and when I would consider real medication. I'm not rejecting the notion out of hand, but it is definitely a last-resort option.

If I were to do it, I would probably go towards treating Amber's obvious anxiety. I have anxiety-related problems myself, related to current life circumstances rather than an underlying emotional disorder. I see Amber's problem as an emotional disorder which may some day require treatment. After talking with local folk about area vets, I think my next step would be to take her to a guy who has success with acupuncture in cats. I can't imagine it, having used acupuncture myself with great results, but if this vet can get a cat to hold still for being stuck with tiny needles, I'm almost talked into giving it a try.

I don't like the notion of Prozac because it messes with neurotransmitter production and function. I suffered seriously disordered cognitive abilities while taking Prozac and similar antidepressants. I refuse to risk creating even more disorder in Amber's unhappy little brain chemistry by fussing with serotinin. Too scary. I am willing to consider feline-dosage of whatever benzodiazepine vets use for anxiety, though. It would be short term, safer for the brain, and easier to taper off when she's ready. Last resort.

~Deb

I can completely understand your position.  I know I'd be reluctant to put Chula or Paul on meds either.   It sounds like you had a bad reaction to the SSRIs - must have been horrible.   If you do try acupuncture for Amber, would you let us know how it works?  I've had it before as well and it was very calming and energizing (if that makes sense) although it didn't actually control my migraines, as hoped.  Anyway, I'm with you:  how do you get a cat to lie still while you stick her with needles, no matter how small?  

 

[crazy4strays]

I'm so glad I found your thread! I'm in a very similar position right now. I have a dominant cat who attacks and chases the other cat. The two have never gotten along. Like you, I don't expect them to cuddle, but I do wish that they could peacefully co-exist.

I'll be reading the suggestions.

 

[catapault]

We had a situation where two neutered, indoor only cats that have lived together since kittenhood suddenly devolved into screaming and fighting with each other when a neighbor's cat would come and stare in the door. Displaced aggression, it is called.

If you want to read the War-and-Peace version, it is here: Two Cats Suddenly Fighting Aggressively

Reader's Digest version: veterinarian prescribed diazipam (Valium) which my pharmacist compounded as a chicken flavored liquid that I just added to their canned food. Worked like magic / better living through chemistry. Vet does have one cat patient on Prozac but she feels that in most cases diazipam / Valium is superior treatment.

Had a couple of transient setbacks, quickly resolved with a couple of doses of diazipam. And now if the neighbor's cat shows up one of my cats screams at him while the other hides under my bed, then both calm down on their own and all is well. Desensitization.

Something completely different - approximately where in the Colorado Rockies are you? Have been on several North American Rock Garden Society meetings - Summit Lake up Mt Evans, outside Vail and Aspen. Last fall visited family in Purgatory (25 miles from Durango). Love the land above the tree line.

 

[mountaincatlove]

I can completely understand your position.  I know I'd be reluctant to put Chula or Paul on meds either.   It sounds like you had a bad reaction to the SSRIs - must have been horrible.   If you do try acupuncture for Amber, would you let us know how it works?  I've had it before as well and it was very calming and energizing (if that makes sense) although it didn't actually control my migraines, as hoped.  Anyway, I'm with you:  how do you get a cat to lie still while you stick her with needles, no matter how small?  

It has taken the better part of ten years for my brain to recover from the chemical assault of SSRI's, SNRI's, atypical anti-phychotics, antidepressants of every description, mood balancers, benzodiazepines for secondary anxiety, and narcotics for pain relief. All because I can't take Cymbalta or Lyrica because they make me crazy. Gotta love Big Pharma. "We don't know what it is or how it works, but it makes big bucks for the company, so go ahead and take it, ok?" Sorry, sore subject. /End of rant.

I've used acupuncture for fibroyalgia pain, as well as for anxiety accompanying withdrawal from those ugly SSRI's and from narcotic pain meds. Great success in all cases, and I do a pain-related tune-up every few weeks. I could hope for half the anxiety relief for Amber and find it money well spent.

I would love to see Amber relax and mellow into life. She has come close a couple of evenings recently. My husband is back from his long business trip out of town, the house schedule is back to familiar happenings at familiar times. Until she exiled herself to the basement, she had spent several evenings stretched out on the bed with us as we watched TV, instead of cowering behind her pillow fort in the corner. With Duncan sequestered for the night, she felt comfortable enough to resume sleeping in the center of the bed, her usual place before Duncan. She still wouldn't allow him to be in the same room, so one of them is always sequestered somewhere. As I've said, I have great hopes for the Feliway sock-scent swiping of their faces.

~D :rub: