New to Site and Learning About Raw Feeding

[halfcoon]

Hi Cat Site Members, 

I thought I'd introduce myself because I'm going to be asking a lot of repetitive and dumb questions! I'm Jen, 32 and live in NZ. I have 3 cats -- Benjamin (tabby, almost 9), Tiggy, (tabby, 9 months) and Charlie (half -Maine Coon, 6 months). 

Charlie has been a very poorly kitten and you can read our story here (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/264439/6-month-old-raw-diet-mouth-ulcers-worried-mama) and is very feeding resistant. 

I am an experienced cat owner and fosterer (I bottlefeed) but I've never had a cat like this. 

Tiggy is gluten intolerant (even of particular gluten free things, like some thickeners), Benjamin is fine with all (and a hearty eater) and has been an extremely healthy cat. 

This is my first experience with feeding Raw and while I've been reading as much as I can, it's hard to know where to start and what to do when you have no one to advise. We are meeting a lot of resistance with the vet fraternity. Even suggested a cat could be gluten free gets some of them quite annoyed. 

So I'm here to learn and absorb as much as I can and quickly at that!

 

[ldg]

Hi! I'm late for kitty dinner, but wanted to write a quick post. I'm SO glad you posted in the forum! I really hope we can help. Charlie seems quite the challenge.

For starters, a really good read to help ground you in the basic principles of feline nutrition in an easy-to-understand fashion is this site, written by a vet: http://www.catinfo.org

It's also helpful to read her section on making cat food, even though you probably won't be buying a grinder (well, who knows!?!). Her recipe is just rabbit, chicken and liver with supplements and egg yolks. As she says, she likes to keep it simple. And the diet with just liver is basically balanced nutritionally. It is better, if possible, to include some kidney. And I personally use 10% liver for my kitties that won't eat kidney. Otherwise they get 5% liver and 5% kidney. (This is based on the "prey model raw" (PMR) style of feeding).

The supplements she adds are needed partly because of the grinding - grinding the food increases the surface area (a LOT), which increases the potential for oxidation (and thus loss) of some nutrients. But when I started feeding homemade raw, even though I was feeding chunks of meat, not ground (I JUST posted a thread on that!), I liked having her supplements as a kind of guideline. I only added a source of calcium, taurine and vitamin E at first. Here is her section on making cat food: http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood

To get you up to speed on the "styles" of raw feeding, here's a discussion on that: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263756/raw-types-comparisons

There's a lot of reading in the Raw Feeding Resources thread "stickied" up at the top of the forum - but the terminology link might be particularly helpful. :lol3: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/264154/raw-feeding-resources

I think you're feeding Tiggy cooked chicken? There is a recipe for meals that are complete and balanced for cooked food here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263751/cooked-recipes-thread (the supplements and amounts used are in the picture with the analysis). mschauer used beef, but you can use pretty much any protein, and different animal liver, heart, and/or kidney in those same portions with the supplements. In fact, a rotation of protein sources for all of these things is healthy, if possible.

And as you face challenges with getting Charlie to eat, hopefully we can help with ideas. In the meantime, have you ever offered him just a piece of chicken or beef liver or kidney?

 

[aprilprey]

I am not the expert here on site, but I can assure you that you are in the right place!  Peruse the resource thread, follow the links...it will make sense over time.

No question is too simple or stupid - ask away and you will get all sorts of advice.

Welcome! 

FYI - my late cat Houdini (RIP) was part Maine Coon - such a nice breed.

 

[halfcoon]

We eat a lot of chicken as a family and I often give a bit of cooked chicken to Tiggy to try and entire Charlie to eat it. Benjamin will eat anything, so he enjoys cooked chicken as well. Charlie, well, he'll put it in his mouth but he won't *eat* it. So I guess that's still a no go. 

I can get free range chicken and turkey mince. He has eaten them but he won't eat it consistently. So if I buy some, he'll eat maybe a tablespoon but won't have it daily. 

I've tried minced lamb, pork, beef and he won't eat them daily either. 

How does horse qualify as a food? The Jimbos economy is horse based. 

He has had beef veal and won't eat that. He has had chicken heart, chicken liver, lamb's heart, lamb's liver frozen and grated into his Jimbos beef. He wouldn't eat that. 

I've tried raw egg, cooked egg. 

I once boiled up chicken leg bone meat, rice and some spinach. I drained it, whizzed it up and offered it. Everyone else ate it. Charlie did not. 

Charlie does not drink water either. 

He will not have cat treats. He DOES like catnip though, and will often put some of it in his mouth. 

I know catnip is traditionally used to settle stomachs (we used some with my daughter when she was a baby) and it can be used as a sedative for humans. Could it be used to settle his tummy?



My big boy used to like freeze dried chicken strips but he was a very big male cat with excelllent teeth. They were sort of packaged like a treat and aimed at dogs but he could get through them. I don't think Charlie would know where to start with them.

I almost wonder if he has an oral resistance, like you would find in children with sensory processing disorder. Perhaps he eats just as much as he needs of the Jimbos beef and no more because he doesn't like the sensation of eating? Or eating is very triggering?

Considering they couldn't wean him onto baby food it almost makes me wonder if he's got a jaw or palate or gum issue that we just can't 'see'.
 

We offer a high quality grain free biscuit for free feeding all day long I top up twice a day. We have cold water (and we even have a fountain!) that they can drink from. They get breakfast in the morning which is when Charlie gets Jimbos. We put down 1 bowl with Whiskas chicken kitten singles, 1 bowl with the dine tuna with whitebait. There is a bowl of petmilk for Charlie. 

During the day I offer him more Jimbos and if Tiggy is extra hungry I will give him a second kitten singles. Tiggy and Benjamin eat the grain free biscuit quite happily and both drink water, though they both tend to lick the shower as well.

If I am slicing cheese, I will slice some Edam cheese for them. Charlie will sometimes eat it happily and sometimes he will eat it because he doesn't want Tiggy to have it. Benjamin doesn't like cheese but Tiggy does. 

They don't get a lot of cheese but maybe a bit once or twice a week. 

Tiggy has very sensitive grain digestion. He is intolerant of wheat but also corn and some starches. He seems ok with rice but it's not really something I want to challenge as it takes a while for his bowel to settle down.

I had one vet tell me cats couldn't possibly be gluten intolerant because their diet is mainly grains. When I suggested that it's the bikkies that are mainly grain and when we took Tiggy off them and Tiggy got better, he suggested that it was all co-incidence. Older man, obviously not happy with a non-vet challenging him. 

He told me that cats eat rodents because rodents eat grains, therefore grains are essential to a cat's diet. 

Whether they are or not, they are NOT essential to Tiggy's diet, end of story. 

Oh Charlie. I do worry about this kitten quite a lot. 

If it were a matter of just offering lots of food, I would. But I'm running out of ideas. 

 

 

[halfcoon]

 
FYI - my late cat Houdini (RIP) was part Maine Coon - such a nice breed.

I don't really have much experience with the breed. I've only read about them online and in books. My companion Andy passed away in January and he was a very large cat and I wanted a feline who would be big and solid like he was. 

I don't know how much of Charlie's temperament is Maine Coon, but he is very gentle and lovely. He chatters a lot and comes when called. He even fetches wee balls of paper. He is very loving and likes to sit inside my shirt tucked up close, which is how I kept him warm during his Fading Kitten days. He licks my lips, which I don't really 'like' but he is very sweet. 

He does come up with some Coon faces when he is displeased. My daughter would like to get a full Maine Coon next. 

We just got lucky there had been some indiscretion with a breeding Tom and we could have a half-Coon!

 

[halfcoon]

I have just started reading some of the listed readings (Thank you!!) and wow. I feel like I am in way over my head. But I'll get there. 

I've done the egg shell for today. 

I've got some free range chicken legs cooking. We'll eat the meat then I'll do up the bone. 

We are searching for a supplement that Jimbos recommended to us. 

Oh my goodness. My head is spinning. 

I am SO glad I found this cat forum. Thank you ALL so much for posting!!

 

[ldg]

Awww.... The problem is you feel like you need to take it in all at once. Charlie does need the calcium, but at least he'll eat the meat with eggshell.

FYI, my cats don't even like eating the same food from meal to meal, so I have a rotation set up in my menu.

I'm a little concerned about this statement, "I've got some free range chicken legs cooking. We'll eat the meat then I'll do up the bone."

It is extremely dangerous to feed cooked bone. Cooked bone splinters easily. It's fine to offer cats bone-in meats, but only if the bones are small and raw. Raw bones are pliable, and small raw bones are soft and pliable. Chicken ribs and the smaller two pieces of the wing are appropriate for kitties. Some experienced chewers can handle necks. But all of these are safe only if fed raw. :rub:

 

[halfcoon]

No, I never feed cooked bones. 

I'm going to do this:

 

 
Bone meal powder

One can use pretty much the same method as for eggshell powder.

Procedure

1. After making stock or broth, remove all the meat from the bone.
2. Dry the bones in a toaster oven*  at 375 to 400 degrees Fahrenheit,for at least one hour.  Obviously times will vary depending on one's oven as well as on the animal/bird bone and type of bone e.g. thigh bones/drumsticks will take a lot longer than wings.
3. After bones are dried and brittle, pulverize/crumble to a fine powder in a Vita Mix  or coffee grinder (obviously only for small bones and amounts or a Magic Bullet-type appliance.

So that I can offer eggshell one day and Bone Meal the next. 

I want to make sure that I'm offering a good calcium option since he has been deficient in it for so long. I know it's probably not needed to offer both but I figure if I've got the bones already, why not?

 

[halfcoon]

I did buy some organic chicken necks and offer them raw. The only one who seemed interested was Benjamin and all he did was hiss and growl and drag them around for a while. No one ate them at all. =(

 

[halfcoon]

oops. double post. 

 

[halfcoon]

What about fur?

Obviously in the wild, rats, mice and rabbits have fur that gets eaten along with the skin, right?

Does the fur have any benefit? Like roughage or fibre or is it a hindrance to the diet?

I'm looking at getting a grinder. The more I read the more I want to control the diet and while Jimbos offers the beef, I'd be saving a lot of money if I just did it myself than spent $8 a pottle on the precut beef. We probably go through 10 of them very quickly if everyone is eating the beef. 

There are just so many! I knew nothing of grinders, now I'm researching brands!


I have arthritis in my hands, so I wouldn't be able to do the bulk chopping. 

Thank you all for opening my eyes!

 

[ldg]

You know, that's a really interesting question about the fur. There aren't studies, just speculation, but it may provide roughage.

It's interesting, really, because a TCS member, mschauer, has developed a program that uses USDA nutrient data info to analyze diets and compare them to AAFCO nutritional guidelines. Now, many raw feeders don't really care about AAFCO for many reasons. But strict prey model raw diets based on proteins like chicken, turkey, rabbit, beef, and/or pork all come up as short in vitamin D. The USDA database doesn't have complete nutritional data for all inputs we use for our felines, especially the organs. The database is meant for common things humans eat. :lol3:

So either the AAFCO is wrong about how much vitamin D cats need (and their guidelines are based on the idea food is going to be highly processed and with ingredients cats may not metabolize well), or the vitamin D is in some part of the animal we're not feeding. Maybe nice and rabbits have more vitamin D in their skin than our human meat animals? :dk: Maybe cats in the wild eat bird eggs. ? :lol3:

So there are those... "unanswerable" questions. But most cats, unless they already have developed GI issues, don't seem to need any fiber in the diet. :dk:

And I forgot about that homemade bonemeal recipe! That's great!

 

[halfcoon]

Hrrrrrmmmmmm....that is interesting. 

I wonder if I can get whole mice or rabbit. Poor Charlie. He only thought things were hard with Mama offering food and bothering him to eat. 

I see some people offer crickets. 


I mean, I'm not saying that cats don't eat insects but do I really need to offer crickets?

 

[ldg]

:lol3: No. Those are people seriously dedicated to variety. But your kids get to spend time outside. They can chase real crickets. :lol3:

Feeding whole prey is a really expensive option here. But you can look for places that provide supplies to people who keep snakes.

Of course, with your Charlie, the issues all likely boil down to figuring out how to get him to eat. And if pain from teeth or ulcers is the problem, it becomes circular. Do they sell freeze dried, not dehydrated, meat or liver treats there? Because finding something he really likes that can be powdered or sprinkled on food would be such a big help here. Maybe freeze dried beef liver?

I have cats that hate raw or cooked liver, but love freeze dried.

...and I think that if you can find a holistic vet, that may help too. If his problem is gingivitis, stomatitus, and rodent ulcers, Chinese meds are far more likely to help than western medicine. Has anyone put him on a steroid yet, to see if that helps the mouth ulcers?

 

[halfcoon]

They've been slow to react because they said that ulcers before 6 months are hard to treat as the immune system is developed enough to test 'positive' for anything. So, we could either load him onto steroids, then wean off them to do all the blood tests or just wait. And given that he isn't losing weight and his eating hasn't changed they were happy to just wait. 

I'm on steroids for arthritis, so I know the benefit they bring, but they are also very hard to get off of and given his calcium issues, I am SO glad we didn't. I have had so many calcium issues myself (like teeth crumbling) because I've been on them for 6 years. 

I can't imagine trying to establish him onto oral steroids, then wean him off, do all the blood tests, then put him right back on. 

I got 1ml of the My Beau supplement into his this afternoon. It's oil based and OMG. It was horrible. He just gave me this look. Then he gets all sulky and won't let me hold him or pick him up. =(

I really do think anything oral just triggers him and it's got to be pain related. 

Tiggy licked the stuff right off a spoon. Charlie just looked at him like he was an idiot. 

Tiggy and Benjamin both enjoyed the Jimbos with egg shell. 

Is there any risk of 'overdosing' on calcium? I know too much calcium in humans can cause heart palpation in some women, but is there a risk in male cats?

Thank goodness about crickets. I was beginning to think that I'd have a bowl of dried crickets in the breakfast line up. I can't imagine ANYONE would offer to catsit for us EVER again if it were a requirement to dish up daily. 

Though, to be fair, crickets seem rather nutrient rich. 

We rescue hedgehogs as well. And most hogs love mealworms. 

We had a particularly fussy hog named Hedgy (lack of creativity there) who was a very poorly hog. We were sure the mealies would be his ticket to health, as he was getting a bit addicted to strawberry jam. Most hogs go wild over mealworms so I ordered like 75 of them online. The vet assured me they would these little bursts of fat and vitality but he just sniffed them and left them.

And I couldn't kill them, and it was almost winter and they'd freeze, so I put them in a tub with a carrot and an apple. And they ate them and got bigger and bigger and then they turned into these weird fat almost see through grubs. As the days went on they went darker and darker until one day -- WHAMMO -- They were beetles!!

And Hedgie wanted nothing to do with the beetles. So then I was pitching beetles out every day for weeks and weeks. 

My husband was sure we had entered the loony bin when he asked me who needed to be fed and I said, Oh, and toss a carrot in for the mealies. 

Thankfully we haven't had a hog for a while as they are so filthy. Cats are SO clean and I don't think cats have a smell. 

Hogs smell like hazelnuts and chocolate but they are SO messy. They have no cleanliness filter. So they have problem walking in their poo and putting their feet in their mouths. 

When they are lovely and clean they are so nice to snuggle (well, wrapped in a blanket) but they are soooo filthy otherwise. 

 

 

[ldg]

They've been slow to react because they said that ulcers before 6 months are hard to treat as the immune system is developed enough to test 'positive' for anything. So, we could either load him onto steroids, then wean off them to do all the blood tests or just wait. And given that he isn't losing weight and his eating hasn't changed they were happy to just wait. 

I'm on steroids for arthritis, so I know the benefit they bring, but they are also very hard to get off of and given his calcium issues, I am SO glad we didn't. I have had so many calcium issues myself (like teeth crumbling) because I've been on them for 6 years. 

I can't imagine trying to establish him onto oral steroids, then wean him off, do all the blood tests, then put him right back on. 

I completely forgot about the still-being-a-kitten part. :anon:

But for what it's worth, cats actually tolerate steroids (usually) far better than humans. The main problem with steroids and cats is that the steroids can really mess with blood sugar levels. The biggest risk with long term steroid use is diabetes (in cats). They don't seem to have the same calcium-related issues we do. I had a cat on the injectible steroid, DepoMedrol, for 7 years. He had an autoimmune disease that caused anemia, and steroids were the only thing that suppressed his immune system enough to keep him alive. He had no side-effects from it, other than he became a bit aggressive and had a bigger appetite the first few days after the shot. That said, there are many reports here on TCS of cats having very bad reactions to the long acting shot, and I know from an FIV+ cat Yahoo group of one cat that developed diabetes after just one shot of Depo. So obviously the "cats tolerate steroids well" has to be qualified. There are exceptions. But typically they handle them far better and with less side-effects than humans. Obviously if an alternative can be found, that would be better. But they can literally be lifesavers. :rub:

Is there any risk of 'overdosing' on calcium? I know too much calcium in humans can cause heart palpation in some women, but is there a risk in male cats?

Yes, you can feed too much calcium. Before you're at dangerous levels, you'll most likely wind up with constipated cats. But just like in people, calcium works in concert with phosphorus and magnesium, the main relationship focus being the Calcium-to-Phosphorus ratio (Ca). Bone is comprised mainly of calcium and phosphorus, and in a ratio that is approximately 2:1 (twice the amount of calcium as phosphorus). Meat has phosphorus in it, but very little calcium. Organs have higher concentrations of phosphorus than meat, and also have very little calcium. The "ideal" Calciumhosphorus ratio has a wide range, typically listed as from 1.1:1 to 1.5:1. Lazlo is on a supplement that makes the Ca ratio 1.7:1, but there's other stuff in there that makes him not constipated at that level.. :dk:

There are slight variations in how much phosphorus there is in various meats and various cuts of meat - but not enough to need to fine-tune the amount of calcium provided with meat. If using eggshell powder, finely ground, the amount is 1/32 per ounce, which is 1/2 teaspoon per pound. Converted to g and kg, that is 1/32 teaspoon of eggshell powder per 28g (or 30g :lol3: ), and 1/2 teaspoon per 455g. Rounding a little bit isn't going to hurt. I balance per meal, so use mini measuring spoons to increase accuracy. I don't know if you have an equivalent available for purchase there in NZ, or if it's easier to just mix up batches with the stuff.

For the bone meal you're making, it will take more to balance the meat with the needed calcium. The calculations are based off of the amount of elemental calcium in whatever calcium supplement / fresh bone alternative is being used. Did the Holisticat site discuss how much bone meal to use? Because I don't know off-hand. I do know the amount needed will be considerably more than for the eggshell (because the bone also contains phosphorus, which eggshell does not). Both eggshell and bone contain magnesium in roughly the correct proportion, so no need to worry about that.

The strict PMR feeders do not know the Ca ratio they feed their cats. They simply use stool consistency as a guideline. The thinking is too little bone = soft stool; too much bone = constipation. But as you can see with Charlie, who probably isn't getting enough calcium, a kitty can produce normal stool even if not getting "enough" calcium. (Or does he have soft stool? :dk: ). This is one of the reasons I do not use only fresh bone in the form of bone-in meals for my cats. I do give them at least one bone-in meal a week so they get the chomping of fresh bone - for the dental benefit and the benefit of eating fresh bone. But I personally don't feel comfortable relying on it for their sole source of calcium and minerals, because calcium is so important to their long term health: I want to be more in control of how much elemental calcium they're getting, and the only way to do that is to primarily use something other than fresh bone. If you want to see how the topic can make raw feeders completely nuts, this is the thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/261077/lets-talk-about-calcium-and-bones :lol3: Read at your own risk - especially if you think your head is already spinning.

Thank goodness about crickets. I was beginning to think that I'd have a bowl of dried crickets in the breakfast line up. I can't imagine ANYONE would offer to catsit for us EVER again if it were a requirement to dish up daily. 

Actually, I think the people that feed crickets buy them live (again, think snake feeding? ), and release them in the bathtub for kitty to "hunt" and eat. It's not a meal so much as a treat, and an addition to normal feeding routine. As you say, are nutrient rich and a good source of choline.

We rescue hedgehogs as well. And most hogs love mealworms. 


We had a particularly fussy hog named Hedgy (lack of creativity there) who was a very poorly hog. We were sure the mealies would be his ticket to health, as he was getting a bit addicted to strawberry jam. Most hogs go wild over mealworms so I ordered like 75 of them online. The vet assured me they would these little bursts of fat and vitality but he just sniffed them and left them.


And I couldn't kill them, and it was almost winter and they'd freeze, so I put them in a tub with a carrot and an apple. And they ate them and got bigger and bigger and then they turned into these weird fat almost see through grubs. As the days went on they went darker and darker until one day -- WHAMMO -- They were beetles!!


And Hedgie wanted nothing to do with the beetles. So then I was pitching beetles out every day for weeks and weeks. 


My husband was sure we had entered the loony bin when he asked me who needed to be fed and I said, Oh, and toss a carrot in for the mealies. 

OK, at this point I have to wonder if you're vegan! Not being able to put mealworms out is a REAL lover of life!