6 month old (Raw diet) Mouth Ulcers {worried mama}

Hi everyone, 

My little man turned 6 months old yesterday. He was exclusively nursed for almost 9 weeks, never weaning onto soft food. He had absolutely no desire to eat and only accepted raw meat. We have continued to feed him raw (Jimbos brand food in NZ) but we offer him 'Pet milk' as the raw meat is not a complete diet. I have been offering him other meats raw but he prefers beef. 

When he was about 4 months old we noticed he had bright red spots on his upper lip (outside) and when we would look in he had horrible smelling breath. He has since developed an ulcer on his bottom lower lip. 

He has not been a healthy kitten. He nearly succumbed to Fading Kitten Syndrome at 10 weeks, needing fluids and heat to keep him warm. Then he nearly died because of lungworm, though we had been treating him for worms since he was 8 weeks old. He also managed to wrap a bag handle around his neck and needed to have CPR. 

He is half Maine Coon and I've read that ulcers seem to be fairly common in Coons. 

My companion cat died in January at almost 11, his big issue was FLTD. I am vastly unexperienced with mouth ulcers. 

It seems he has 2 ulcers on the bottom jaw, 2 on the upper and 1 on his lower lip. I will try to get photos. 

I am worried that it is either a reaction to the preservatives in his meat (what will he eat!?), the cat milk being that he is intolerant of dairy or the vitamins or the preservatives again (what will I use to supplement him?) or pollen or grass or fleas. He is regularly flea treated but we are going into Flea season here in NZ. We live opposite a reserve that is full of mice, rats, pollen, grass, trees, and of course, fleas! Lots of dogs walk off leash and we get a lot of fleas. 

I am worried he might be feline leukemia positive as he has had such poor health. 

We have tried just about every wet food on earth. 

Our 9 month old tabby is gluten intolerant, so it reduces what we can offer him. He does enjoy chicken and cheese, but the chicken must be fully cooked and then only the dark meat. 

He is especially picky and we often joke he thinks he's Persian. 


The vet said that Maine Coon weren't normally this finicky and that if we starve him he will get on with it. I can't take that sort of attitude. I held him for days while we hydrated him orally and kept him warm with my body heat. Fading Kitten Syndrome is so distressing and traumatising. 

I just don't know what to do. The vet said not to do anything until he was 6 months old as most testing needs to be redone at 6 month to begin with. He just turned 6 months yesterday so I'm looking for ideas in which way we should head. 

We've had a really bad cat year with my big boy dying. Then last week our almost 9 year old started vomiting blood and now with Charlie's ulcers. I'm just terrified they're going to tell me it's cancer. 

Help this mama off the ledge, please!

Thanks

Jen 

We use only porcelain bowls and we are currently in Spring, just leaving winter. 

And 1 more!! He has been ill, after leaving him mum, after the Fading Kitten but before the Lungworm incident. He was treated for cough, sneezing and possible feline Flu.

It sounds like he's got Feline Herpes, which can manifest itself as an URI or eye ulcers, or mouth ulcers, or any combination of those.  I know that several people have used Evening Primrose Oil to help with the mouth ulcers (commonly called "rodent ulcers" even though they have nothing to do with rodents).

Thank you for that Stephanie. Would I put the EPO on his ulcers or just in his mouth? I imagine it's going to be a rather messy sort of thing.

Would any sort of omega oil work or is it because of the actuals of the evening primrose?

I'll go do some googling. 

I'm confused...you said the Jimbo's Brand Raw food is not complete? What is it missing and why not look into supplementing those nutrients instead of giving pet milk?

So sorry that he's had such a hard time!

Could be Calicivirus. That causes mouth ulcers as well. Is that what he had before? This virus is typically described at "cat flu" whereas Herpes is typically a "cat cold."

If you suspect FeLV, why not have him combo tested?

Are you supplementing the pet milk as a source of calcium? because it will in no way provide enough calcium. There can be many reasons for ulcers - often the herpes virus, as mentioned, or the calicivirus - but he may simply be malnourished, and with an immune system that is just all out of whack.

It sure sounds like your kitty needs a vet visit. :heart2:

I found a link to the Jimbo website: http://www.jimbos.co.nz/shop/cat-food/ It seems they are not supplement with taurine (or anything) - though some of the mixes do have heart in them (a good source of taurine), and have no source of calcium. Do you know what's in the foods? (And more importantly, what's not in the foods?)

I also note you mention you give your other cat cooked chicken and cheese. Again - what is the source of calcium apart from cheese?

I urge you to use the site's Raw & Cooked Food Forum to help you learn how to provide a balanced diet to your kitties: http://www.thecatsite.com/f/65/raw-home-cooked-cat-food

They need far more than just meat (or heart and kidney) and pet milk or cheese. In fact, this is what can happen if there isn't enough calcium in the diet: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/259623/2-months-old-eating-only-meat#post_3362873

If there is no calcium in the raw food, and the only source of calcium you are providing to your cats is cheese or milk, I urge you to start supplementing with something like powdered eggshell immediately and stop using the cheese and pet milk. You can easily make your own: http://www.holisticat.com/esp.html

The Jimbo's food may make it easy to balance the batches (dethaw, add eggshell powder, mix thoroughly, and refreeze in feeding sized portions) - it requires 1/2 teaspoon per pound (455kg) if finely ground.

If you want to add it to meals individually: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263426/...hydroxyapatite-to-balance-meat-or-meat-organs

Please clarify the diet, so we can better help. :heart2:

Oh - and traditional worm treatments do not work for lung worm. That requires a different toxin. Lung worms are from eating slugs or snails, and can only be gotten from eating a host, not passed from cat-to-cat.

Hi Peaches, 

This is the Jimbos brand (http://www.jimbos.co.nz/shop/cat-food/)

Raw is not really accepted by many here in NZ (and hopefully that is changing) but the container states it is not a complete diet as the meat does not contain any additional  supplements. It is just pure beef. 

The thing with Charlie is that he simply will not eat. He will just lie in front of the food and cry. Because he has been so ill we keep offering the Jimbos because he *will* eat that. He has been very poorly which the diet probably hasn't helped. I know we've been offering a bad diet. I worry about it every day. I have tried raw chicken. I've tried raw organ meat. I've tried grating the frozen meats together. I've tried raw eggs. I've tried supplements. 

He simply will not eat any of it and will just lie on the floor. I know he IS hungry. I know he is probably starving at some points. But he just lays in front of it. And because we all start to worry about 2 days, we put the beef back down. =( I really don't know what to do. 

Of all the cats I've had (and I foster and bottle feed kittens) this kiddo is just hell bent on getting his way. 

As for the lungworm -- he had several long course injectible antibiotics over several weeks. The lungworm was very hard to treat and we finally got it all. They said it was probably passed as a fetus, so he had it a long time. 

Yes, they suspected cat 'flu' vs a cat 'cold' and they said that because the calici was part of his vaccines that he probably wouldn't catch it again/ it wouldn't be as bad if exposed again. 

I guess that means that he might still have it (be a carrier) as well as possibly still having an active infection some where?

The issue with the vet is that anyone I take him to starts in on the raw meat. It's as though the minute I open my mouth and mention that (even to BEG for help) they just shut down with 'irresponsible owner' and 'you cast this own rod for your back'. 

Foods that Charlie will eat:

Raw beef Jimbos
Cooked chicken
Edam Cheese
Pet Milk

Foods Charlie will sort of eat:

Raw Salmon

Charlie is wormed and flea treated regularly. 

I've suspected malnutrition for a while. We've tried various supplements, oral vitamins, etc. He is so strong and while he is a very gentle and loving wee boy, he will bite when we try this. =(

Tiggy is our gluten free boy. He cannot stomach even the smallest amount of gluten, but he eats Whiskas kitten singles every day (also offered to Charlie), we have grain free bikkies down for everyone. We offer DINE tinned tuna with whitebait. 

The older boy Benjamin (almost 9) eats anything and is fine. Big, tough old cat. Tiggy eats anything but it must be grain free, even thickeners set him off (if the thickener claims to be GF). 

Charlie has all this food on offer and when offered he does a motion like he is covering poo in the box, 'covering' the food and will lie down in front of it. As though it is so unappealing it makes him ill.


We have seen SO MANY vets. It's not a matter of him not going to the vet. It's a matter of being so viciously overwhelmed by the lack of support from the vet fraternity. 

I had one tell me that he had mental issues and to put him down. =( 

I have tried various raw diets and the others will lick at it which I thought would encourage Charlie but he just won't eat it. He will even go up to the others and paw at their mouths, like maybe he is interested (?) but he won't eat. 

I've tried cooked meals, like chicken with rice and a wee bit of greens blended in. No go. The others loved it!

We are spending a fortune trying to get food into this kid and having him reject it. 

My worst fear is that he *is* going to die and it was because I didn't get tough enough and tell him to starve until he finally ate something like a grain free bikkie. 

Please try making ground eggshell powder and mixing it into the food in the correct amount, as described in the link I provided. It takes a very small amount to balance a meal for at least the proper amount of calcium, and I highly doubt he will detect it.

In fact, you can follow this recipe - just use the eggshell for calcium instead of bone - and the additions are all human supplements. Consider making batches in half-pound (225g) sizes; and just add one new ingredient each time. I'd start with the eggshell powder for calcium; then I would add the taurine. If he eats that, then you can add the B vitamin. If he eats that, add the vitamin E, etc. (I started with the most important (calcium and taurine), then the least offensive to most cats). When it comes to the liver, this is really essential. But try adding just 1/4 of the amount required at first. If he eats it, then next time add 1/2 the amount of liver needed to balance the food, etc. This is the recipe: http://www.catinfo.org/makingcatfood.php

Obviously my point isn't to switch the proteins - no need to use chicken or rabbit. Use the Jimbo's stuff as the base. I just meant the additions that will make it nutritionally complete.

Also, as he eats the raw without issue, obviously there's no need to do any searing, as Dr. Pierson does. You're providing already-ground food anyway.

Clarification? There are grain free kibbles down for them to free feed. Charlie doesn't eat any?

We provide high grade grain free biscuits for free feed, with top up twice daily and Charlie has never had one. He has never tried a bite of the Whiskas kitten singles. He has never had a bite of the tinned tuna with whitebait (we offer that one because it is Benjamin's favourite and now that he's getting older he is getting a bit slower and really does enjoy it). He has never tried a bite of prescription kitten foods. Or tinned Royal Canin. Or Science Diet. We have bought over 50 different foods for him to try, often only offering that. The other 2 will eat anything really. Charlie will not eat a bite of it. 

(Hence why one vet suggested he is mentally deficient.) =(

The longest I've let him go without eating is 2 days and even then that made my insides curl. I hate that feeling. We were very poor as kids and I know what it's like to not eat very much. So it just makes me sick. 

Charlie was breastfed and never weaned. His mum was getting very cross with him not weaning as his 2 sisters weaned at about 6.5 weeks. The 2 sisters went onto Whiskas Singles Chicken and that's what they tried to feed him. I think they might have put their fingers into the singles and then into his mouth to give him a taste (?). But he had none of it, so mum kept nursing him. 

We took him home knowing these weaning troubles, hence the pet milk being introduced. We tried mashing the singles with the milk. Mashing the singles with other foods. Mashing the milk with other foods. Mashing the milk with Jimbos. 

Finally, we offered the Jimbos (as a last resort) and he ate it. 

He then showed signs of Fading Kitten (probably from a lack of nutrition) and we had to syringe feed him and he was so poorly. It was horrible. In all my fostering days, I've never had one this ill. We syringed him with warm fluid and with the Royal Canin Recovery food. The vet thought for sure because he had been syringed the RC that Charlie would eat it. 

Nope. 

He went straight back to Jimbos and pet milk. 

We have offered various minced meat, like chicken, turkey, pork, lamb. He might eat it, he might not. If the Jimbos smells a certain way, he won't eat it. 

He will just lie in front of the food and cry. 

I will try to get the My Beau vitamin today (http://www.myvet.co.nz/beau-supplement-cats-300ml-p-297.html) as this is what Jimbos suggested to give him today. 

He then was struck with the Calici. Then the lungworm manifested. 

I will do the eggshell into his food really soon. 

The jimbos isn't minced. It's large-ish bits of meat that he has to tear and chew really well. 

I often wonder if the chewing makes him tired or hurts his ulcers so he feels that food isn't a *good* things, it's a punishment sort of thing?

I have several trays of Royal Canin Recovery. I might see if I can syringe some in and get him over this hump. 

It's just so frustrating. I can't even begin to explain how much of a failure I feel like -- can't even feed her own kitten!

Thank you for all your help Laurie. I know it's probably very frustrating dealing with us uneducated folk, but I really do appreciate it. 

I don't know where in NZ you are, but have you searched google (or whatever) to see if there are any holistic vets there? They would likely be more open-minded to the raw, and able to work with you on his problems. You've sure got your hands full with him.

FYI, I had a kitty with a lot of health problems when we first rescued. Our traditional vets tried a lot of different meds to stop his itching and diarrhea, we tried different diets, hypoallergenic foods, etc. Nothing helped. I searched and found a holistic vet that is about a 45 minute drive from us. She had him on the right track within a few days.

Also, the eggshell can be sprinkled right on the chunks of meat. It's wet enough it will stick. You will need to have some idea of how much food you're putting down for him, so you may need to invest in a kitchen scale. It only takes 1/32 teaspoon per ounce of food to properly balance the calcium. That's basically a healthy pinch of eggshell per 28g, if you can't find a mini-measuring teaspoon set.

HalfCoon said:

Thank you for all your help Laurie. I know it's probably very frustrating dealing with us uneducated folk, but I really do appreciate it. 

Click to expand...

Please don't refer to yourself that way! We learn as we go - it was the same for me. I just never had a cat that wouldn't eat anything other than beef. I DO have some eating-challenged cats. I feed 8 cats a raw diet, and I've learned to be creative about getting them to eat. All of them were adults when I transitioned to raw, and they didn't recognize it as food at first. :lol3: I've also given up on getting some of them to eat what they should, so with the help of others here on TCS, I've been able to get creative on how to get the vitamins they need into them.

Know that the FVRCP vaccine doesn't necessarily mean that he will not get Calici or that he will not have a severe case...I learned that first hand last year. It really depends on how well his body responds to the vaccine and what strain of vaccine he comes in contact with.

One of my cats came down with a horrible case of Calici (with mycoplasma was well.) It progressed rapidly...he was fine and the 3 hrs later noticed "blisters" on his upper mouth. Within 8 hrs of initial symptoms, he had spiked a 106.4 temp and the entire front portion of his nose had essentially sluffed off. He was around 11 other cats at the time. He was quarantined. Only 4 other cats developed symptoms (a single small ulcer either under their nose or on their tongue.) Interestingly, the other 4 were his litter-mates. None of the other cats ever showed any symptoms. All were up-to-date on vaccines.

It could just be that his immune system

Thank you so much for your time and patience. 

I have never met a cat like Charlie (and I hope he is just 1 in an otherwise healthy long line of 'special' cats). I do worry that he doesn't feel well and that's why he is so very picky. It's not a lack of food on offer. It's just the getting it into him. He is a very lovely wee boy and I know that when he feels 'ok' he's a bright spark. I just worry that there is something fundamentally very wrong and that's why it comes out as feeding difficulties. 

I've had blind kittens, toilet training resistant kittens, etc but never feeding resistant kittens. One vet suggested he was probably 'supposed' to go during the Fading Kitten and I think I agree (now). Obviously nursing helped him overcome whatever issue makes him so ill. But traditional feeding is affected by whatever it is making him so ill. 

I will definently look into a holistic vet. We have pet homeopaths around the country, so perhaps we have some holistic vets as well. I know Jimbos supports one in Auckland but that's a 14 to 16 hour drive away. 

I will make this a challenge in creativity. He has me beaten in stubbornness but he can't outwit me. 

This is Charlie and Tiggy curled up together recently. 

Dear lord that is cute - you have two very beautiful cats!!

This makes me want to knit my little boys a blanket

:lovegrin2: Yes, insanely cute!

I'm assuming you can tell he doesn't have a fever? At least not one where he feels hot enough to the touch to suspect one?

...you (and the vet) may well be right about Charlie. :heart2:

If you feel inclined to seek further help, we're more than happy to help you "outwit" Charlie in the Raw Feeding Forum. :nod: There have been some pretty challenging kitties, so as a group, we may just stumble on advice that will help you help him, at least from that angle.

And I REALLY hope there is a holistic vet - someone that can help with traditional meds, if needed, but also provide other types of supportive care (and may even be able to help with his diet!) That's not a lot to ask for, right? :lol3:

I will definently head over to the raw feeding forum. 

I just did the egg shells. We don't have a Magic Bullet, so I whizzed them in my electric hand mixer and then pummelled them to powder in my pestle & mortar. I mixed it into some Jimbos and he ate that very well. I tried it just on the top but he refused. So it had to be mixed rather well. Tiggy of course just nommed the lot with the calcium on top. Charlie is just a very 'special' cat I presume. 

We are having chicken legs tonight so will do up the bone after dinner. 

Tiggy is the red tabby and his person is my 8 year old daughter. He loves her immensely and she loves him. He will lick her and groom her like a mother cat. Charlie is my grey baby. He's tabby in the face and very 'coon' looking there but beautiful blue-grey fur with white on the underside. They are very lovely kittens. 

Tiggy was found in an industrial area when he was just 3 weeks old. He was so poorly they presumed someone had tortured him. He could not stand, he could not lift his head and he couldn't open his eyes. 

The vets at the SPCA took a vote to see whether they would euthanise him or attempt treatment. He won the right to life with just *1* vote. 

They shot some xrays of his brain and did a lumbar puncture. They found he had a serious infection in his cerebellum. He was tube and syringe fed for 2 months before he opened his eyes fully. He gained strength and stood up. What made them carry on through it all was his purr. If he had no purr they would have presumed he had no fight in him, but he kept purring and trilling to them.

Finally he was neutered and put up for adoption at nearly 4 months old. Sophie found Tiggy in the 'teen run' when we were visiting one of our fosters. He found her and she found him. She picked him up and he looked deep into her eyes and he never let go. He spent his first 4 weeks in her room, first under her bed, then in her bed. As he was so unsocialised, everything in the house was SO scary. But she was patient with him and he was patient with her and together they explored. His basic locomotion was very poor. He was super unsteady. Anything that stressed him and his legs would go out. Our boy Ben caught a mouse and Tiggy was SO excited he fell over and we thought he had died! He was just so *shocked* to see a mouse!

We got Charlie and when we brought him home Tiggy was SO happy. He ran around and chirped and trilled and needed a nap. They began to play together which made Tiggy use all his brain and his muscles. We were worried Tiggy would never 'catch up' but today at 9 months and 6 months they are completely equal. 

They go outside for short bursts during the day and while Charlie adapted after 1 afternoon it took Tiggy weeks of 5 minute bursts. Now they go out together and come in together. Tiggy is obsessive about birds and the birds are very stroppy and peck at him. He doesn't seem to come with normal cat knowledge so he just keeps going after them. They will chase him, peck at him, all while making the most horrid noise imaginable, and he just looks at them. Doesn't want to kill or eat them. He just wants to sniff them.

Charlie, on the other hand, is ALL cat. He's into mischief climbing trees. Flies and bees are his big interest at the moment. He just loves them. He's not into birds at all. 

I have a weakness for the sick or injured. I know they are extra work but there is SO much benefit in seeing them come right. 

You'd never know, looking at that photo, how sick both of them have been. Neither *should* be here but they are and we are richer for having them. 

My companion died in January after a long, hard battle with FLUTD. He was nearly 11 and I still cry for him but the babies make it better.