Also, can you give the kittens a soft cloth with the corners soaked in KMR to suckle on, so they will stop suckling on each other?
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Never owned a cat before, I need (a LOT of) help with 5 orphaned kittens.
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Normally the mother would stimulate them to pee, and clean it up at the same time. You're already stimulating them to poop, can you use a rough, damp washcloth to stimulate peeing at the same time? If there's nothing in their bladders, it shouldn't matter that they lick one another.
How are you doing? Are you managing to get anything close to enough sleep?
Margret
How are you doing? Are you managing to get anything close to enough sleep?
Margret
Do not use a rough cloth. Use a soft cloth. Mom's tongue is rough, but too much rubbing makes kittens bottoms sore.
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Hey Margret, I'm fine myself, thanks. The first days were rough but now that they don't have to eat every 2 hours, I find time to sleep and get rest. Also, since I see them getting bigger day by day,
playing with each other, etc., it's much less stressful for me, I don't worry that they might die from one hour to the next any more.
I already stimulate them to pee, since day 1, and they pee A LOT, all of them and every time they eat. Peeing was never a problem, lots of it, right color,
doesn't smell. Some of them don't even need stimulation any more, you put them inside the litter box after they eat, they go.
Still, after a few hours, no matter if their bladders were empty when they went to sleep, some of them need to go again I guess.
I will try that small cloth soaked in kmr thing. I've tried putting small toys in their nest so they can suckle on before but they completely ignore them, I haven't thought of the
kmr dipping thing though, this might work.
And yeah, I know about the sore bottoms thing Sarthur2, I'm being extra careful because they're so sensitive, when I need to stimulate them I do it very, very gently.
Thanks again everyone.
Sorry for the delay, I work a night time job and sleep during the am.
There are a few things I want to say, for one, I can see by the shape of that baby's butt in the pic that they are definitely sucking on each other. This is fairly common with orphaned/bottle fed babies. Nature gives babies the need to suck alot, so that they will nurse on mom most of the time, and be latched on even during sleep.
So when they are bottle fed, they are unable to get that need out of their systems like they do with a momma cat.
They turn to anything that resembles mom's nipple.
They do eventually outgrow this for the most part, at least to the point where they won't keep sucking on each other's genitals, but meanwhile this can cause problems.
Swelling, urine ingestion are the main issues here.
If they have something that simulates momma's fur it will help and they will not turn to each other but that thing, for instance I had a piece of mink (a vintage mink fur cuff) that I will put in with kittens, they LOVE it, feels like mama
No more sucking on each other.
Even going to a fabric store and buying a small piece of fake fur fabric, choose one that feels as soft as mom would.
I've had litters where they didn't suck on genitals but during naptime the smallest one was the target and the other 3 sibs would suck on his neck, when they woke up and he would pop up he was a wreck looking, all wet and a ring around his neck of fur peaks, where they were sucking. He didn't mind so it was much better then going after genitals, and safer! Funny though!
Despite the genital sucking, there is something else at play here, they are not sucking on his tail, yet that is bald too, and it also wouldn't cause the scaling skin either.
So, a skin scraping must be done to check for mites/mange and ringworm, although I don't suspect ringworm, I do however suspect mange might be the problem.
Easy fix really, revolution given every 2 weeks, 3 times in a row will do the job. You will have to dose down though, I believe I read they are 4 weeks now?
If you have a problem with money and vet care, you can use a warm solution of 1 part apple cider vinegar to 8 parts water too. At least for now until kittens get a bit older and revolution is my go-to for mange.
There is also FOOD GRADE ONLY! diatomaceous earth that can be put on their skin and bedding, but watch the dust isn't suffocating them and in their eyes too.
I would also have the one tested for felv. Not fiv, as this is VERY rarely passed from mom since it does not cross the placenta, but felv def does and will be born in to an felv pos momma cat.
I haven't read from the beginning here but assuming you don't know who/where mom is?
Never too young for an accurate felv test either.
I bring up felv testing because if this does end up to be mange, there may be a weaker immune system that is allowing the mites to get so out of control.
FELV causes a weak immune system.
All cats have mites, their systems keep the number in check though, so when a cat/kitten has an excessive number of mites, it's then called mange, and unless it was contracted from another cat, it can mean a weak immune system.
On to the possibility of urine scalding.
I don't see redness in the skin, if it is from pee, the skin should look red and irritated. From what I can tell this is not the case, only scaling skin and fur loss, correct?
I advise against vaseline, it acts as a barrier yes but also won't allow air to penetrate, which will only escalate what's going on here.
If these kittens are in fact 4 weeks old now, they do not need stimulating anymore, they can go fine for both pee and poop themselves, but the litter box needs to have very low sides, or they can climb in it by themselves.
If it is too high, make a ramp, then take each kitten and walk them up the ramp like you would a stuffed toy, hopping it along.
It sounds silly but this is how you train them to use it, they are not smart enough yet to figure it out so simulating the walk on the ramp programs their brain
The only thing I would apply to the skin AFTER using a baby wipe on it would be A&D ointment.
I highly suggest getting a skin culture done asap.
At least a vet can do this despite lacking kitten care knowledge that most all vets do.
I can't rule out but doubt ringworm due to age/lack of red skin/pattern and to me the tail does look like mange. Mange will cause a slightly thickened skin, and over time it gets even thicker.
I also wonder about dilution of formula, 1 part KMR powder to 2 parts water is the norm. If that is what it is then fine, and I would make the pate/formula runnier to make sure there is plenty of fluids in them.
There are a few things I want to say, for one, I can see by the shape of that baby's butt in the pic that they are definitely sucking on each other. This is fairly common with orphaned/bottle fed babies. Nature gives babies the need to suck alot, so that they will nurse on mom most of the time, and be latched on even during sleep.
So when they are bottle fed, they are unable to get that need out of their systems like they do with a momma cat.
They turn to anything that resembles mom's nipple.
They do eventually outgrow this for the most part, at least to the point where they won't keep sucking on each other's genitals, but meanwhile this can cause problems.
Swelling, urine ingestion are the main issues here.
If they have something that simulates momma's fur it will help and they will not turn to each other but that thing, for instance I had a piece of mink (a vintage mink fur cuff) that I will put in with kittens, they LOVE it, feels like mama
No more sucking on each other.Even going to a fabric store and buying a small piece of fake fur fabric, choose one that feels as soft as mom would.
I've had litters where they didn't suck on genitals but during naptime the smallest one was the target and the other 3 sibs would suck on his neck, when they woke up and he would pop up he was a wreck looking, all wet and a ring around his neck of fur peaks, where they were sucking. He didn't mind so it was much better then going after genitals, and safer! Funny though!
Despite the genital sucking, there is something else at play here, they are not sucking on his tail, yet that is bald too, and it also wouldn't cause the scaling skin either.
So, a skin scraping must be done to check for mites/mange and ringworm, although I don't suspect ringworm, I do however suspect mange might be the problem.
Easy fix really, revolution given every 2 weeks, 3 times in a row will do the job. You will have to dose down though, I believe I read they are 4 weeks now?
If you have a problem with money and vet care, you can use a warm solution of 1 part apple cider vinegar to 8 parts water too. At least for now until kittens get a bit older and revolution is my go-to for mange.
There is also FOOD GRADE ONLY! diatomaceous earth that can be put on their skin and bedding, but watch the dust isn't suffocating them and in their eyes too.
I would also have the one tested for felv. Not fiv, as this is VERY rarely passed from mom since it does not cross the placenta, but felv def does and will be born in to an felv pos momma cat.
I haven't read from the beginning here but assuming you don't know who/where mom is?
Never too young for an accurate felv test either.
I bring up felv testing because if this does end up to be mange, there may be a weaker immune system that is allowing the mites to get so out of control.
FELV causes a weak immune system.
All cats have mites, their systems keep the number in check though, so when a cat/kitten has an excessive number of mites, it's then called mange, and unless it was contracted from another cat, it can mean a weak immune system.
On to the possibility of urine scalding.
I don't see redness in the skin, if it is from pee, the skin should look red and irritated. From what I can tell this is not the case, only scaling skin and fur loss, correct?
I advise against vaseline, it acts as a barrier yes but also won't allow air to penetrate, which will only escalate what's going on here.
If these kittens are in fact 4 weeks old now, they do not need stimulating anymore, they can go fine for both pee and poop themselves, but the litter box needs to have very low sides, or they can climb in it by themselves.
If it is too high, make a ramp, then take each kitten and walk them up the ramp like you would a stuffed toy, hopping it along.
It sounds silly but this is how you train them to use it, they are not smart enough yet to figure it out so simulating the walk on the ramp programs their brain
The only thing I would apply to the skin AFTER using a baby wipe on it would be A&D ointment.
I highly suggest getting a skin culture done asap.
At least a vet can do this despite lacking kitten care knowledge that most all vets do.
I can't rule out but doubt ringworm due to age/lack of red skin/pattern and to me the tail does look like mange. Mange will cause a slightly thickened skin, and over time it gets even thicker.
I also wonder about dilution of formula, 1 part KMR powder to 2 parts water is the norm. If that is what it is then fine, and I would make the pate/formula runnier to make sure there is plenty of fluids in them.
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@Baator what's happening with the baby?
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That's great news! [emoji]128522[/emoji]
Update, please? Whole group here, wondering...
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Everything is great. They are all still living with me and the last week has been a lot of fun. They play with each other all the time, they explore the house, I got them a few toys and they play with those too, they want petting and hugs. Overall, like I said, this week was awesome. They are all quite big now, around a pound each. They use the litter box like pros and it still amazes me how they knew how to do that without me doing anything at all. I couldn't stop laughing when one morning, while they were all sleeping, I saw one with its eyes still closed yawning, getting out of their nest, getting into the litter box, peeing and then going back to sleep inside the nest.
We are almost 6 weeks old now. I still feed them with a bottle because I didn't have time to properly train them to eat by themselves, although they are more than ready. I leave food and water in bowls next to them but they don't touch it. Right now I give them canned food mixed with kmr and it costs me a fortune. I know I have to train them to eat by themselves but I didn't have enough time these last few days and I'm afraid to just leave the food out there to see if they'll eat it when they're hungry. That's problem No. 1.
My second problem is that I have to decide which ones to keep and which ones to give away and it's breaking my heart. I simply can't. That's also one reason I keep putting off the part of them learning to eat by themselves. I realize that after that is done, I have no reason to keep them any longer, they are ready for adoption. They are big, healthy, potty trained and social.
I'm 100% certain that the reason they all survived was because there were 5 of them and they all helped each other. When I see them playing or sleeping in a big pile with their little heads resting on their brothers and sisters' bellies....it's just amazing. I can't bring myself to separate them. :/
I really wish I could keep all of them. I can't choose my "favorite" ones. It costs a fortune though and I still haven't started with their vaccinations and stuff.
Anyway...that's the news. I'm really touched by your concern, you've helped me a lot throughout this process.
We are almost 6 weeks old now. I still feed them with a bottle because I didn't have time to properly train them to eat by themselves, although they are more than ready. I leave food and water in bowls next to them but they don't touch it. Right now I give them canned food mixed with kmr and it costs me a fortune. I know I have to train them to eat by themselves but I didn't have enough time these last few days and I'm afraid to just leave the food out there to see if they'll eat it when they're hungry. That's problem No. 1.
My second problem is that I have to decide which ones to keep and which ones to give away and it's breaking my heart. I simply can't. That's also one reason I keep putting off the part of them learning to eat by themselves. I realize that after that is done, I have no reason to keep them any longer, they are ready for adoption. They are big, healthy, potty trained and social.
I'm 100% certain that the reason they all survived was because there were 5 of them and they all helped each other. When I see them playing or sleeping in a big pile with their little heads resting on their brothers and sisters' bellies....it's just amazing. I can't bring myself to separate them. :/
I really wish I could keep all of them. I can't choose my "favorite" ones. It costs a fortune though and I still haven't started with their vaccinations and stuff.
Anyway...that's the news. I'm really touched by your concern, you've helped me a lot throughout this process.
They are soooo cute!! Can you keep them all for another 2 weeks, wait to adopt them out when they are 8 eight weeks rather than at just 6 weeks?? With another 2 weeks to mature with their litter siblings will give them a healthier start. Also, if you can adopt 2 or 3 together to the same family, that will be a plus. You will also be confident that they will be l eating on their own by 8 weeks. A greater peace of mind for you. Great news that they have mastered the litter box!!
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Yes, I am definitely keeping them until they are at least 8 weeks old. I am not ready to give them away yet anyway and the number I always had on my mind was 8 weeks from the start. My only concern is if they'll be ok without vaccination until then, especially since they didn't have any milk from their mother at all. I simply can't vaccinate them all myself though.
Someone adopting two of them would be amazing and it'd make me so happy, but I really doubt it will happen. There are SO many orphans and so many people trying to find good families to give them to.
Someone told me that they will be fine even when alone, that thinking they will miss each other is "human thinking" and that they will get used to being alone a few hours after they get adopted. That if they were out in nature they would have already been separated. I wish that's true and that they will be ok, it still is very hard though when I think of my smallest one missing his siblings and having no one to play with.
Someone adopting two of them would be amazing and it'd make me so happy, but I really doubt it will happen. There are SO many orphans and so many people trying to find good families to give them to.
Someone told me that they will be fine even when alone, that thinking they will miss each other is "human thinking" and that they will get used to being alone a few hours after they get adopted. That if they were out in nature they would have already been separated. I wish that's true and that they will be ok, it still is very hard though when I think of my smallest one missing his siblings and having no one to play with.
Kittens do not get first vaccines until they are 8 weeks old minimum. It's even better to keep them all together until 10-12 weeks. They learn from each other. They do bond, and they really do much better when adopted in pairs. You should actively seek homes that will take pairs.
At six weeks old, they should weigh a pound and a half, so the sooner you start them eating on their own, the sooner they will grow better. They will figure out how to eat on their own, and now is the perfect weaning age!
It really can be emotionally difficult to re-home kittens, but they quickly grow into adult cats who need good homes. They do adjust, as well as bring happiness to new owners!
You might want to ask about kitten specials at your local Humane Society. I had my kittens fixed and vaccinated at a great price last June using a kitten special at my Humane Society.
It sure does sound like you've done a fantastic job with these sweet kittens! [emoji]128149[/emoji][emoji]128062[/emoji]
At six weeks old, they should weigh a pound and a half, so the sooner you start them eating on their own, the sooner they will grow better. They will figure out how to eat on their own, and now is the perfect weaning age!
It really can be emotionally difficult to re-home kittens, but they quickly grow into adult cats who need good homes. They do adjust, as well as bring happiness to new owners!
You might want to ask about kitten specials at your local Humane Society. I had my kittens fixed and vaccinated at a great price last June using a kitten special at my Humane Society.
It sure does sound like you've done a fantastic job with these sweet kittens! [emoji]128149[/emoji][emoji]128062[/emoji]
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They are truly adorable. I wish it were possible for you to keep them all; I think that's the thing that would make you happiest, but if veterinary bills would be a problem then giving some of them up is probably best. How many are you planning to keep?
Margret
Margret
That is one cute litter of kittens! No wonder you are having a hard time deciding who to keep and who to gift to a new home and family. Please keep them all for at least another two weeks. They learn how to be cats from each other. It's a language that is hard for an "only kitten" to learn with no mama cat. Best of luck to you and all the babies! I'll be keeping watch here for your updates!
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They look wonderful!! You are definitely their angel. I think 7:09 is one of my favorite photos, that face! They're growing by leaps and bounds and it's all thanks to you, good job!!!!it's going to be so hard to choose I'm sure, I ended up not being able to so I kept the last three of the litter I took in. They are all adorable but that little Orange one melts my heart. Keep taking photos!
Oh, what fun for you. They've entered the compulsive-escape-from-the-nest phase.
They're looking very strong and happy. I note that using the litterbox appears to be as "catching" as yawning -- one wants to go and suddenly everyone wants to go.
Totally adorable. I'm so glad you saved them.
Margret
Well, it took me 15 minutes to watch an 8 minute video on this old computersaurus rex, but it was so worth it! Thank you for all you have done for these little guys.
