my cat died from anesthesia

[kittens mom]

 
It's a good plan, thank you. I didn't think of Attorney General, but illegal stuff might fall under their jurisdiction. BBB is usually about mediation (I believe), but at this point we don't want to discuss anything with the clinic, a word out (Yelp and such) will be more valuable to other pet owners. 

I've also seen somewhere a recommendation to contact the clinic's insurance company. As we don't know its name, I'm going to ask the state board for this info. 

I asked our but was told they didn't have that information. Because I'm in a lawsuit I could I theory ask for her insurance companies name during discovery.

 

[whiterabbit]

Sorry you have to go through all of this. 

I see. I will try to google for insurers combined with the clinic name/owner/address/etc. and see what comes out (I already got something, but not sure).

One question. Would it be better if I mail the complaint to the state board, with a signature request, instead of submitting it electronically? I would really like to include a page copy from the record, it's something, but the form doesn't accept attachments. Or do they call back to request it? 

(sorry, didn't notice, actually there are file attachments)

 

[Mamanyt1953]

Pay very careful attention to Kittens Mom, who has recently become more of an expert on vets and records than she ever wanted to be, or than anyone should have to be.  If you have questions, insist on those records...FULL records!   At that point, you will have a better idea of what happened and of what you want to do.  Look them over very carefully for discrepancies, etc. 

Sadly, having worked in the medical field (albeit human), I can say that sometimes this happens with anesthesia.  It really does, even when all went properly, but you have cause to wonder, and the absolute right to KNOW.

 

[whiterabbit]

Unfortunately, sometimes it's too late, and the only learning option we have is from mistakes. 

We already have the full record, as full as it gets when printing it out directly from the system. The procedure missing is not like a page missing, it's JUST MISSING from the record. The record is like a log with timestamps, if there is nothing between certain times, then it's not on record. 

Question: do I need to launch a complain against the clinic or the vet? I guess, technicians just follow doctor's instructions. 

 

[kittens mom]

 
Sorry you have to go through all of this. 

I see. I will try to google for insurers combined with the clinic name/owner/address/etc. and see what comes out (I already got something, but not sure).

One question. Would it be better if I mail the complaint to the state board, with a signature request, instead of submitting it electronically? I would really like to include a page copy from the record, it's something, but the form doesn't accept attachments. Or do they call back to request it? 

(sorry, didn't notice, actually there are file attachments)

Copies of everything. I sent them registered mail.

Triple check everything so that the package arrives clearly legible and the story you tell makes sense. WE tend to internalize because this is so personal and forget to add important details that flesh out the complaint. You want to personalize the account but leave excess emotion out.  Hysteria is quickly translated to Crazy Cat Lady. If you haven't already look up the legal definition of veterinary malpractice.

I wish you luck. Mostly I wish you the answers you need. I got mine. It was shocking and made me realize that my gut had been right even when my heart and mind said enough. As hard as it was to digest it finally released me from the guilt I have harbored. And somewhere in our minds we think if we're right enough we get them back. You don't. And you know you don't but there is that human desire for fairness and fair be getting them back.

Remember to take time to grieve for the cat you lost. And all that was special about her and your life together. Don't let the reason you're fighting for her lost in the process. If you haven't put up a memorial for her now would be a good time in the crossing the bridge section.

 

[whiterabbit]

Thank you, I'm used to writing professional documentation (not lawyer).

After some research, I'm pretty sure it was hypoxia (lack of breath) due to an incident during anesthesia onset. There was a similar human story with Propofol:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/ph-ho-cf-medical-malpractice-suit-20111213-story.html

I'm not a doctor, I can't comment on a Propofol dosage. There is a question though, if using Propofol for a cat was ok. The resource where I looked up all formula components, says it's for dogs and rabbits. There was also a painkiller, opiate (Buprenorphine) given together with pre-anesthetic, but it's recommended to use it AFTER a surgery. There were studies it promotes hypoxia during anesthesia, but are vets required to read Science papers? I also wonder if the tube was too small (3mm is for a 2 lb animal, a kitten). The formula:

Buprenorphine 0.04mL + Atropine 0.04ml SQ

Propofol 0.56mL to effect IV

Isoflurane 2%

Oxygen 2% 

Endotracheal Tube #3

I'm sure there are enough details to this story, that the board can decide to investigate. There are timestamps not matching, lapses in the documentation and they can't produce our signed authorization. The vet seems to live in a world where silly things like owner permissions and honest talk with them are not required. But unless there is something obvious with the anesthetic formula or something inside the clinic, it's hard to prove it was hypoxia and there was no due diligence to resuscitate the patient (an absence of a record might only hint there was not). It's all "he says - she says". Are vets required to log emergency situations and procedures? I guess, their insurance company would be interested to learn of one. 

As for grief... it's not that. I didn't even realize how much my pet was imbedded into my life. I've been having her old photo (over 10 years) as an icon in a number of internet services for many years. It's already MY identity. But I look at it and my heart sinks. I don't want to change it, it could've been just a cute picture I downloaded from the internet. Similar, I use her name in a number of services. I see her ghost around the house. Like, I take care not to step on her and "see" her with my peripheral vision in usual places, then a split second later recall we've lost her.  I "hear" her when I sleep, then realize it cannot be, wake up and have trouble going back. 

 

[kittens mom]

Propofol dosage , it may be used extra label. I learned a lot about that. Most of it good. It allows the use of human drugs in animals. Bad. It allows a cost cutting vet to use drugs that are at best borderline to use in the species not listed on the animal product.  Like injecting my cat with enrofloxacin. Per a 1999 medical reference book. Yeah my vet screwed the pooch and then took photo copies and sent them to me during discovery.  She sent the same to the SVB. The jury is out on her sanity. ( joke).  She was even content to mention that it's a common dose she gives cats. Which is why Kitten lost most of her eyesight.  The path to the truth is sometimes long and painful. One of the unmentioned pitfalls of being a pro se is there is no buffer between you and the raw evidence that may surface. It has really taken me to my limits in the last week. You have to have your sob, your moment. your anger and then set back down to and regain a professional stance. And it takes a hidden toll.

I have the current Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook. If there is any information I can offer you I am happy to do so.

After my research I would say if you go to court you will need an expert witness.

 

[whiterabbit]

From https://www.avma.org​:

"A valid VCPR is a prerequisite for all ELDU" (VCPR = vet-client-patient relationship, ELDU =  extra label drug use)

"A Veterinarian-Client-Patient Relationship, or VCPR for short, exists when your veterinarian knows your pet well enough to be able to diagnose and treat any medical conditions your animal develops."

"A VCPR is established only when your veterinarian examines your animal in person, and is maintained by regular veterinary visits as needed to monitor your animal's health"

We saw this doctor first time in our life for a rather brief moment. I wonder though if the "vet" part is the clinic. But then, is only 1 visit prior to it qualify for "well enough"? I will make a note "didn't know the patient well enough".

> I have the current Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook. If there is any information I can offer you I am happy to do so.

Thank you! I've found the 6th edition online, available as .pdf, from 2008. I kind of don't want to be so much involved as to study in deep veterinary drug use, I have plenty of other things to do. But is the state board responsible to determine if the drugs use was proper, or is it my job to tell them?

 

[kittens mom]

 
From https://www.avma.org​:

"A valid VCPR is a prerequisite for all ELDU" (VCPR = vet-client-patient relationship, ELDU =  extra label drug use)

"A Veterinarian-Client-Patient Relationship, or VCPR for short, exists when your veterinarian knows your pet well enough to be able to diagnose and treat any medical conditions your animal develops."

"A VCPR is established only when your veterinarian examines your animal in person, and is maintained by regular veterinary visits as needed to monitor your animal's health"

We saw this doctor first time in our life for a rather brief moment. I wonder though if the "vet" part is the clinic. But then, is only 1 visit prior to it qualify for "well enough"? I will make a note "didn't know the patient well enough".

> I have the current Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook. If there is any information I can offer you I am happy to do so.

Thank you! I've found the 6th edition online, available as .pdf, from 2008. I kind of don't want to be so much involved as to study in deep veterinary drug use, I have plenty of other things to do. But is the state board responsible to determine if the drugs use was proper, or is it my job to tell them?

The SVB will hand the complaint to an investigator. The board itself is usually comprised of a majority of veterinarians and several lay people. After investigating the claim it will be presented to the board for review.

I would send any references you can to the board. Why? So they know you know.

Both the FDA and DailyMed maintain accurate files on veterinary drugs.

There is also the Merck Veterinary Manuel provided online and Google Scholar has at the very least allowed to read the abstracts of studies and papers. That includes legal briefs/torts and medical.

A veterinarian carries a state license and there is probably a link on the State Government website dealing with rules , procedures and discipline guides for professionals.

 

[fleur4]

I'm so sorry, my cat died under anesthesia for a dental cleaning, too.  This was about 8 years ago.  We had 2 cats, littermates, male and female. The male was a little on the heavy side, (he weighed 23)  and he died on the table.  The vet said he must have had an "undiagnosed heart condition", but I really think our vet was getting old and he was not using up to date anesthesia.  We brought our female home and she was out of it for a day or so.  

When we explained the situation to our new vet, he suspected the same, that the anesthesia was outdated.  

I know how awful you must feel, I'm sorry!

 

[whiterabbit]

 
The SVB will hand the complaint to an investigator. The board itself is usually comprised of a majority of veterinarians and several lay people. After investigating the claim it will be presented to the board for review.

I would send any references you can to the board. Why? So they know you know.

Both the FDA and DailyMed maintain accurate files on veterinary drugs.

There is also the Merck Veterinary Manuel provided online and Google Scholar has at the very least allowed to read the abstracts of studies and papers. That includes legal briefs/torts and medical.

A veterinarian carries a state license and there is probably a link on the State Government website dealing with rules , procedures and discipline guides for professionals.

Thank you, it's super useful. 

I managed to find the VMB regulations and included a reference into my complaint, the parts which were violated. Anesthesia requirements, Minimum standards(competency), Humane treatment (keeping the patient in the clinic with no food, making the patient suffer just to mislead us etc), failure to keep records. 

 

[whiterabbit]

 
I'm so sorry, my cat died under anesthesia for a dental cleaning, too.  This was about 8 years ago.  We had 2 cats, littermates, male and female. The male was a little on the heavy side, (he weighed 23)  and he died on the table.  The vet said he must have had an "undiagnosed heart condition", but I really think our vet was getting old and he was not using up to date anesthesia.  We brought our female home and she was out of it for a day or so.  

When we explained the situation to our new vet, he suspected the same, that the anesthesia was outdated.  

I know how awful you must feel, I'm sorry!

It might've been an overdose, like in this story:

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-confessions-i-lied-when-a-pet-died/

It looks like those "undiagnosed conditions" and "kidney/liver failures" are code words to cover up mistakes with anesthesia. The most outrageous part is lying to owners and, like in our case, making a fatally injured animal suffer. If they called right away "sorry, the anesthesia went wrong, she will not be able to recover", then putting her to sleep was an option. But no, they kept her "alive" and suffering for a few hours just to play a show of "abnormal recovery" and "unknown disease". I wonder if VMB is very well familiar with this pattern. 

 

[fleur4]

That was a terrible thing the vets did to you.  I felt lucky that my boy died on the table and that the vet called us immediately. We took a cab uptown and he was still on the table.  I was mad, though, because the doctor had been my vet for about 25 years, and he  was getting too old to practice and wouldn't get out of the business. 

I hope you find peace and can move on knowing that your cat knew you loved her and someday a new cat will be loved by you.

My general rule, for doctors, dentists, vets, the best ones are between 40 and 65.  Under 40 need a lot more experience,  over 65 is fine, but they won't be as sharp as they used to be.  Happens to all of us!

 

[crazy4strays]

How awful! I'm sorry for your loss.

My cat is scheduled for dental cleaning pretty soon. My vet tech says that they've never lost a cat to anesthesia over a dental and I've had bloodwork done, which showed that his liver and kidneys are in good shape, but still it's nerve wracking. 

 

[fleur4]

How old is your vet?  My new vet is about 40 and our Lulu has had her teeth cleaned several times, with no bad results.  It's not a big deal if your vet knows what he or she is doing.  

To give you an example, my husband used to go to an elderly dentist.  His X rays were about 1/4' big, you'd need a magnifying glass to see anything.     When he switched to a younger dentist in his 50s, we couldn't believe how far dental technology had come!  The X rays were the size of the computer screen and every problem with every tooth was very obvious.   The older dentist missed a lot of cavities because he was old and his dental equipment was obsolete.

I'm sure it's the same thing with veterinary technology and medicines.   If you vet is under 80, I'm sure the kitty will be fine.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[crazy4strays]

 
How old is your vet?  My new vet is about 40 and our Lulu has had her teeth cleaned several times, with no bad results.  It's not a big deal if your vet knows what he or she is doing.  

To give you an example, my husband used to go to an elderly dentist.  His X rays were about 1/4' big, you'd need a magnifying glass to see anything.     When he switched to a younger dentist in his 50s, we couldn't believe how far dental technology had come!  The X rays were the size of the computer screen and every problem with every tooth was very obvious.   The older dentist missed a lot of cavities because he was old and his dental equipment was obsolete.

I'm sure it's the same thing with veterinary technology and medicines.   If you vet is under 80, I'm sure the kitty will be fine.

Good luck and keep us posted!

My vet is 32 years old. He graduated from veterinary school in 2012.

 

[whiterabbit]

 
That was a terrible thing the vets did to you.  I felt lucky that my boy died on the table and that the vet called us immediately. We took a cab uptown and he was still on the table.  I was mad, though, because the doctor had been my vet for about 25 years, and he  was getting too old to practice and wouldn't get out of the business. 

I hope you find peace and can move on knowing that your cat knew you loved her and someday a new cat will be loved by you.

My general rule, for doctors, dentists, vets, the best ones are between 40 and 65.  Under 40 need a lot more experience,  over 65 is fine, but they won't be as sharp as they used to be.  Happens to all of us!

Well, vets usually don't tell their age... And people can start a new career at any age. 

Our first vet from this clinic was a young woman, but she was very thorough, straightforward and detail oriented, with good attitude. I don't know if she even performs surgeries. The one who prescribed and performed the procedure looked late thirties, very confident, using quite a bit of medical lingo, and I thought we were lucky to have somebody more experienced. But apparently (as I googled it later) she graduated from a vet school in 2014, less than 2 years ago. As I already mentioned, she used to be a nurse in ER (human). When we told her our cat had diarrhea from antibiotics, she prescribed an injection, saying it didn't have side effects. I looked it up, a known side effect of this prescription was diarrhea. In the record, she documented a food item as a "medicine"! From the language used on the record, I learned of her patronizing demeanor towards us. She forgot to obtain our authorization to use anesthesia and a number of things. It might've been a bad combination of the clinic lacking equipment and her sloppiness stemming from her overconfidence.  

 

[whiterabbit]

 
How awful! I'm sorry for your loss.

My cat is scheduled for dental cleaning pretty soon. My vet tech says that they've never lost a cat to anesthesia over a dental and I've had bloodwork done, which showed that his liver and kidneys are in good shape, but still it's nerve wracking. 

How often do they lose cats to dental and other surgeries in general? I would ask this question.

My clinic can say they never lost a cat to anesthesia, as they wouldn't document it as it is. 

 

[whiterabbit]

 
How old is your vet?  My new vet is about 40 and our Lulu has had her teeth cleaned several times, with no bad results.  It's not a big deal if your vet knows what he or she is doing.  

To give you an example, my husband used to go to an elderly dentist.  His X rays were about 1/4' big, you'd need a magnifying glass to see anything.     When he switched to a younger dentist in his 50s, we couldn't believe how far dental technology had come!  The X rays were the size of the computer screen and every problem with every tooth was very obvious.   The older dentist missed a lot of cavities because he was old and his dental equipment was obsolete.

I'm sure it's the same thing with veterinary technology and medicines.   If you vet is under 80, I'm sure the kitty will be fine.

Good luck and keep us posted!

I'm afraid to think how old my own dentist is, I don't know. His daughter (a dentist too) looks like an "elderly dentist". Their office has top notch equipment, the best stuff around. They even have this machine printing crowns, you don't need a second appointment. Overtime it will probably learn to print teeth right in your mouth. 

 

[kittens mom]

A veterinarian is duty bound by their oath to continuing education. A professional degree is not a pass to stop learning. In fact quite the opposite. The vet who blinded Kitten admits to suing a 1999 reference book and treating other cats with the same dose. Even though the side effect of this drug is marked on every box bottle and piece of literature attached to this drug since 2000. I think she should be charged with Animal Cruelty. While this example is extreme vets get comfortable in their treatments. Medicine for cats as an individual species is now recognized as a field of study all on it's own. Protocols for drugs used on cats and shot recommendations are now specialized. This is not making the vet into a specialist but rather current in their learning as any species they treat on a day to day basis. Our BabyMooks coming dental will probably run between 5-600 dollars. I now why.

My personal opinion is my vet stopped reading the bottle the drug came in. And I highly doubt she went and consulted that 1999 drug book. She was dispensing by habit. And according to her has been for almost 17 years. I would guess these vets have figured out a few treatments that cover most things. I highly doubt either your cat or mine were the only victims of our respective vets.

You asked in an earlier post, The SVB requires you make the charge against specific people. To follow up on a complaint the person must be licensed with the state. There should be a section for license verification on your SVB website. A veterinarian is responsible for not overseeing a vet tech. A vet tech is not excused from mistakes simply because the vet failed to note a mistake they may have made. You may need to file individual claims if more than one person is involved.