Koko most likely has IBD - a new journey for me

[feralvr]

OH Amy - Just - I just saw this thread and read through it to catch up. So sorry about your sweet Koko - but it certainly sounds like she is a little trooper. I do not have any experience in IBD but I can offer you support, vibes and prayers. Your a good momma to Koko and I am sure once she gets on the "right" diet for her condition - she will feel much better and start to gain again :cross: :rub:

 

[ldg]

SO looking forward to hearing about the vet visit!

 

[carolina]

I went through all of Koko's medical records today to see if the start of her weight loss coincided with when we switched Muddy over to prescription food. They didn't line up - she started losing about the time I started experimenting with food, which was prior to Muddy getting FLUTD. The irony is that I got the cats off of Science Diet dry to other brands (Wellness, Fromm, etc) for about a year before Muddy's condition became so chronic that I switched them back to Science Diet prescription.
Koko is begging me for raw meat - first a chicken liver, then some steak, then some pork. She gobbled down the chicken liver like it was the best meal in the world. It makes me wonder if she's listening to her body craving something that she needs. I'm giving in to her for now, knowing it isn't entirely balanced and she's still eating mostly cat food. I can't wait for my appointment with the vet tomorrow (11AM).
No vomiting in the last few days. She's getting better about taking the pills - she's resigned herself that she's going to get them regardless of how she feels about it.

Hi Amy
I am sorry you are also going through this and sorry I haven't posted before.... I have been following every post in this thread..... waiting for the moment it felt right to post.... and now it does.... Weird...
Anyways.... you probably know that Bugsy has IBD also, and the difficulties I have had with him in the last year and half.... The many vet visits, the over year long of daily diarrhea.... the emergency situations.... the endless tests, endless food trials.... medications.... etc etc.....
Bugsy went through it all - he did NOT go through a biopsy however.... He did every single test under the sun, including some newer tests Texas A&M has developed, that put side-by-side can point to IBD pretty darn closely - and with his history, alongside all other tests, there was no way around it. His vet said all things considered and with the results of all tests, a biopsy would be needed only if he was in risk of lymphoma - which was not the case; thank goodness.
With that said...... His diarrhea was also treated in every single way you can possibly imagine.
Every single diet was tried - Over the counter - single proteins, Prescriptions both wet and dry, Royal canin and Hills Z/D, wet and dry, wet alone, mixed..... Every drug that you can possibly imagine - name one, he has taken - long, short term, steroids, antibiotics, different ones, different probiotics, herbs..... Dirrhea medicine....
It got to a point where those meds affected his liver, and the damage kept increasing.... We needed to stop all medications - including his stomatitis medication. That led on to an awful complication..... his stomatitis got worst, leading to several abscessed teeth, and he had to have a number of extractions because of it Finally after many months out of meds, his liver recovered and he was able to go back to his stomatitis meds.....
But his diarrhea persisted and now no treatment was around to treat him - He just couldn't handle any drugs anymore.....
The best we ever got, was managing it with a mixture of Hills Z/D and Royal Canin for dry, and ZiwiPeak for wet..... Align probiotic, Proviable-DC, a Herbal mixture for diarrhea, and Fiber..... Still, his poop was Gel like, soft, he had gas and colic

His only option was Exploratory surgery...... I scheduled once...... and cancelled it. I was scared.... I didn't want to put him through so much pain....
This part will come as a shocker...... But bare with me: A dear TCS friend gave me the gift of a consult with an animal communicator.... and she spoke to Bugsy..... And Bugsy had a message for me: "I feel bad, I want to feel better.... I have colic before going potty.... it is not too bad, but I would like for mommy to look into it...."
That stuck to my mind.... Sounds silly for some, I know..... but in my mind, I knew that it was the truth - he did not feel alright..... I called his vet..... I was to bring him in soon.....

So I had a couple of options -
1: Exploratory surgery.... But then what? Bugsy can't take medicine anyways..... I would put him through a life-threatening situations, painful recovery..... only to not be able to treat him in the end.....
2- give Raw a try. I HATED raw. If you read my posts with AC before I started my diet...... I HATED that diet - I gave AC, furriefriends50 and the others the hardest time..... I had to apologize to each of them :lol3: AC almost fell off her chair when I asked for her help :lol3:
I had no choice......
Lo and behold! I did a slow introduction with Bugsy as he has a very sensitive system and low immunity........ took 8 days for him eat 100% raw.... but on that day - on his FIRST day eating 100% Raw diet.... He had Solid, formed normal poop! After 14months of daily diarrhea..... For the first time in his life
Bugsy is off of all supplements, and is taking only what the other cats are taking - one probiotic, and the digestive enzymes - standard on a raw diet :nod:
He has taken the diet like a champ - not a single day of diarrhea :nod:
His vet is thrilled He said this diet very likely saved his life..... saved him from a painful future......

Since I have started this raw journey, I have done a lot of reading about IBD and raw..... A raw diet doesn't cure IBD, but it is considered the single-most effective tool in the disease management. For many many many kitties, it is all it takes for them to go on healthy..... For others, it takes diet and some medication, but it reduces it drastically - but it is the one thing that has been found to help most, if not all IBD kitties, and nothing else has been found to do that universally like a raw diet does.....
I know it is a hard step to take..... It is not easy to do when you have multiple cats..... But IBD never stops at IBD when not nipped in bud.... unfortunately it can lead to lymphoma..... so giving it the very best shot at managing it is your best best bet :nod:
All the best Amy......

 

[finnlacey]

Amen sister!! Great post!!! The only thing I would add is that there are occasions when the kitty's gut cannot handle the bacteria in raw (even though it's healthy flora). Mostly in kitties with pancreatitis, it's been known to exacerbate things. But even then, it's not impossible when things calm down to switch them to raw. Sometimes it's a matter of getting the inflammation down first. This is all a very tricky disease and lots and LOTS of guess work, trial and error.

 

[carolina]

Amen sister!! Great post!!! The only thing I would add is that there are occasions when the kitty's gut cannot handle the bacteria in raw (even though it's healthy flora). Mostly in kitties with pancreatitis, it's been known to exacerbate things. But even then, it's not impossible when things calm down to switch them to raw. Sometimes it's a matter of getting the inflammation down first. This is all a very tricky disease and lots and LOTS of guess work, trial and error. :high5:

The more I read about it, the more I see that the problem seems not to be as much the bacteria load as it is with digesting bones..... You want to give an easily digestible raw diet to your IBD kitties.... that will help to keep pancreatities at bay, at least that is what I have been finding. Diets supplemented with calcium and bone meal are easier on their digestive system and don't push their pancreas as much :nod: It seems to be safer for them.
I keep Bugsy's diet mainly bone-free/supplemented - he eats some bone, but mostly it is supplemented..... at least 1/2 to 2/3 of it :nod:

 

[finnlacey]

Do you have any links regarding that info? I'd love to see some information on it.

 

[momofmany]

First of all, I want to share a comment my DH made to me the other day when I brought up a raw diet as an option. He nearly shouted "NO RAW!!!".

The vet gave me about a 90 minute consult today. He is clearly holistic based, leverages Chinese medicine, and is a STRONG proponent of raw. This is a 180 degree shift from my current vet. Put it on the record that philosophically, I'm more aligned to holistic, but understand that western medicine has as much a place as eastern medicine.

He was fascinated by my geneology chart of my cats. It included all my current residents, their descendents, their health issues or the age/reason of their death. What SCREAMED across the chart was the incidence of inflamatory diseases - cancer, LPGS, cystitis, IBD, rodent ulcer, etc. And one big contributor to inflamatory diseases? Dietary carbs, which are foreign to cats in their natural environment. Best choice of diet for cats? Raw. Second choice - canned grain free food. Third choice, canned grain free supplemented with grain free dry. Last choice - carb loaded dry.

I knew this deep down, but needed an DVM with nutrition knowledge to give me a big push.

I have been terrified of making any changes to Muddy's food and meds since it took over a year to stabilize him when he first came down with his cystitis. He blocked after eating a can of fish flavored food so I've been avoiding it almost completely. Even though fish is not necessarily a natural choice for cats, it is better than carbs. Most grain free foods have fish in them. He told me not to be afraid of them anymore. In place of steroids, he suggested shots of Adequin (sp?). It is a joint supplement that has also been proven to work on bladder inflamation (unlike Cosequin, whose active ingredients do not work). So we're going to work out the Science Diet dry C/D food with a grain free dry (starting with Orijen). We'll work out the nightly regular canned foods with grain free foods. We'll keep him on the morning Purnina UR canned and the pred until those shifts are made. Then we'll explore the Adequin for him.

The change in diet will not hurt Stumpy, and if anything, might get us to the point where we can get him off Pred. At 17 with LPGS, he wasn't sure that we can do this, but we'll take one step in better food for now.

The change in diet will definitely help Spanky, who is getting larger and larger each year. It will help him lose weight.

The change in diet could help Pinky's chronic rodent ulcer, if eliminating the carbs prevents the inflamation.

And for Koko? Carolina sit down. I stopped at the Pet Health store and bought a bag of frozen raw for her. If there is any cat in my household that will easily transition to raw, it's Koko. She LOVES raw organ and muscle (not sure about bone). Primal carries a fully loaded formula where all you need to do is thaw it and serve it. DH's complaint against raw was the amount of work needed to give it. With all the other transitions to grain free food, even if she misses a meal of raw, the grain free food will be better for her. If the raw works (and the others demand some of it), then I will experiment with getting more cats on it, and will experiment in making my own to save money. As far as a sudden switch to raw - he told me that his own dog had horrible issues with food and on the day he decided to simply switch him to raw, the dog healed. I'm just hoping she likes the Primal.

I don't want Koko on steroids for the rest of her life.

The other thing I want to start to do is to very SLOWLY wean them off the free feeding dry food bowl. It's not fair to some of my older ones (particularly Stumpy) that have been eating like this all their lives. The food bowl is a social gathering place for them, and has always supported their bond and pecking order in the house. What I will do is start putting less food in that bowl, so that they are encouraged to eat more wet food.

Once the switch in food starts to stabilize, I will pursue some natural herbs for both the cats and dogs. He agreed not to go to fast on the change - one step at a time.

Oh, and he was a bit fascinated by my comparison of cat colonies to lion prides/coalitions and how animals interact in them. It gave him an "aha" moment and he claimed that he was going to pursue that line of thought. The topic came up as we talked about my need to keep stress levels really low in my house, and understanding group behavior helps to keep it low.

 

[sugarcatmom]

The vet gave me about a 90 minute consult today. He is clearly holistic based, leverages Chinese medicine, and is a STRONG proponent of raw.
 

Once the switch in food starts to stabilize, I will pursue some natural herbs for both the cats and dogs. He agreed not to go to fast on the change - one step at a time.

Sounds like a really great vet. Good luck with the food switching, and I'll be very interested to hear how it goes.....
 

Oh, and my hubby was also rather anti-raw initially. We're both vegetarians, but he's a particularily squeamish one. Now that he's seen with his own eyes how awesome all the cats are doing on raw and how much they love mealtime, he's a convert. Even bought a little freezer for me so I could stock up on meat!

 

[pat]

Just found this thread..sending vibes for all to go well as you make the diet changes you are thinking of making, and with her treatment for ibd.

 

[ldg]

Sounds very much like our holistic vet. She's also a D.V.M. I just wish I'd handled the transition off kibble better. Sounds like you've got a great plan, and a wonderful resource in this process.

 

[carolina]

Do you have any links regarding that info? I'd love to see some information on it. :hi:

I am not sure if you are familiar with this site?

http://www.ibdkitties.net/Aboutraw.html
Madison is a more severe case. When he was switched to a raw diet in November of 2008 he improved from day one and
continued to do well until July of 2009. He began vomiting bile several times a week until it got to the point where it was
obvious he was having pain and the raw was no longer working well for him. After several tests and a thorough exam it was
confirmed that Madison has pancreatitis.

There’s no way to tell for sure what brought this on but our best guess after reviewing some other cases is that the larger
bone fragments in the brand of raw that Madison was eating didn’t break down properly and caused a backup of acid in his
GI tract, which then proceeded to aggravate his intestines and then his pancreas. Normally a healthy cat can easily digest
small bone and has no problem breaking it down for elimination. In fact, it’s important to have ground bone in raw food for
calcium and other vital nutrients you can’t get anywhere else. But for an IBD kitty that has a compromised organ system,
there is nothing normal about how their intestines are working.

Ground bone for an IBD kitty
especially is probably best but be aware of acidic backup or constipation.

It is not proven.... It is not studies.... But there are several cases.... And to me, that is enough to be on the safe side with Bugsy. I can't find anything that links a problem to bacteria though - only to the possible difficulty of digesting larger bone fragments....

Bones are a strange issue/subject..... My cat Lucky is completely unable to digest them. She was the one, actually who had the acid backup here in my house.... As a new raw eater on Rad Cat (bone free), as soon as I introduced her to bones (ground, she got quite sick - throwing up every meal for 2 days.... In the vet we saw all the bones in there - undigested.... From her stomach to intestines, and signs of inflammation. She couldn't tolerate even a lick of raw for days - or food, without taking nausea medication.
Now I am introducing her to raw all over again, but she has to be on bone free for a while until she builds up proper enzymes..... To be honest, I am not sure If I am going to put her on a bone in diet - it was quite a scare..... and a long introduction (took her 35 days to even try raw!!!) and now here I am on ground ZERO!! only to risk it again..... Wil have to think about that one carefully.....
It is rare.... Cats are made to digest bones.... But it can be an issue sometimes. With IBD, new kitties on raw..... sensitive systems..... Cats who have eaten kibbles all their lives.... Their systems can be wacky....

 

[finnlacey]

LOL, yes, I'm very familiar with that site. It's mine!!! LOL. I'm thrilled actually to be quoted a page from my own site, means people are reading it and looking at different cases!!! Hurrayyy! LOL. I know you're probably wondering why I didn't remember this but after doing this for over 3 years now and having the site grow larger and larger, it's impossible for me to remember everything. But GREAT that you found that, thank you, you made my day!!

Besides that, I always like to see new information if people find links and studies done so just in case, I wanted to ask.

 

[carolina]

LOL, yes, I'm very familiar with that site. It's mine!!! LOL. I'm thrilled actually to be quoted a page from my own site, means people are reading it and looking at different cases!!! Hurrayyy! LOL. I know you're probably wondering why I didn't remember this but after doing this for over 3 years now and having the site grow larger and larger, it's impossible for me to remember everything. But GREAT that you found that, thank you, you made my day!! Besides that, I always like to see new information if people find links and studies done so just in case, I wanted to ask.

OMG how funny!
THANK you for that site I have been meaning to post Bugsy's medical history there for a while..... but just need to finalize organizing his medical records..... It is all in his blog anyways..... and his raw records in his monster thread :lol3:
Raw was literally a small miracle for him - without a doubt, it saved his life......
And yes - your site is a reference to me for sure!!!

 

[finnlacey]

That's great! I REALLY need new case histories. I'm going to pawmail you.

 

[carolina]

:lol3: That's great! I REALLY need new case histories. I'm going to pawmail you.

Thank you - whatever pawmail means :lol3: BTW - your site is used as a reference very often here at TCS for IBD kitties, and it is listed here, at the RAW Resources Page: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread


To Amy - Sorry for the Hijack ..... But you should check her site.... It is a great resource for us parents of IBD kitties! http://www.ibdkitties.net/
:nod:

 

[momofmany]

Thank you - whatever pawmail means :lol3: BTW - your site is used as a reference very often here at TCS for IBD kitties, and it is listed here, at the RAW Resources Page: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread
To Amy - Sorry for the Hijack ..... But you should check her site.... It is a great resource for us parents of IBD kitties! http://www.ibdkitties.net/
:nod:

No problem. Will do.

 

[momofmany]

HA!!!!

Last week during check ups, they found cavities in both Muddy and Spanky. I had them in for dentals yesterday and because of their age, they did a full blood panel on both of them prior to the surgery. Muddy was due anyway, and Spanky had yet to have a baseline geriatric panel.

And guess what she found in both of them? Elevated levels which indicated that both of them had some allergic condition going on (sorry, I forgot which number was high).

So we started to talk about what triggers allergies, then talked about Koko some more. (sarcasm inserted here) Let's see, allergies cause inflamation (huh, you think that IBD can be triggered by an allergic reaction?), and what is one of the most prominent allergens for cats, and btw, what is the top 2 ingredients in the diet you prescribed to Muddy? Yup, those nasty allergens. Huh, do you think that the diet given to Muddy is killing Koko?

For the first time in all the years I've visited this vet, she was stymied. Like I've said before, she's an OUTSTANDING surgical vet, but her achillies heal is that she is a bit arrogant and doesn't like to admit when she is wrong.

She suggested that we switch over to Science Diet allergy diet food. I asked her if she knew what the top 2 ingredients were in C/D (which she didn't know so I told her), then asked her what the top ingredients were in the allergy diet (she didn't know that either). Then I told her that I was already working on transitioning their dry food over to grain free. She actually made the comment that the cat food industry has been doing everyone a big disservice all these years by adding grains, as cats are carnivores (a comment I never expected to hear out of her mouth). She told me that I needed to make sure that whatever I choose, that they don't have too high levels of magnesium and calcium for Muddy's sake. So my comment back on this, so for magnesium, .22 is ideal and nothing over .25? She looked at me surprised and said, ".25 rings a bell". At this point she completely deferred to me on what their diets needed to be, as it finally hit her that I probably know more about the topic than she does. And yes, I'm gloating here.

When DH came home from work and I shared all this with him, it made him a final convert to changing out their food entirely.

And btw, poor Muddy and Spanky are going to be a bit groggy from the pain meds they are on for the next few days. And did you know that inflamation from allergies can cause issues with their gums that lead to cavities? Hmmmmm.........

 

[finnlacey]

Oooh I love hearing stuff like that! Vets really do know better if they'd just stop to think about it. Thankfully a lot them are starting to say that the health of their patients is better than the trash they sell for food. Unfortunately they get paid so much it helps keep their business afloat.

 

[ldg]

YOU GO AMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[pat]

YOU GO AMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Big yeah that!