Is it unhealthy??

[irinasak]

Another problem with feeding cats dry, not even a full-dry diet, is that sometimes they like the taste of the dry food so much more, and that's all they want to eat.

This is the problem I had with Sophie. She is not food driven, but being free fed kibble for the first year of her lfe, that's what she ate. While transitioning to scheduled feeding and more wet food, she rather starved herself waiting for the kibble than eat the wet. So I stopped the kibble completely, although feeding was so much easier in the free feeding days.

And now, because she is weird like that, she likes raw better than wet. And out of all the proteins out there, she seems to favor goat...

 

[oneandahalfcats]

Please define "superior"? If you're taking bioavailability, it certainly isn't, because extruded diets are not as easily digestible nor bioavailable as canned or raw meats.

It would appear you're arguing that concentrated food is "superior" to fresh or moist food. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If you read through that section again, I am referring to meat meal IN dry food as being superior to a meat source that would accompany it, as the moisture content is removed so there is more actual meat density in chicken and turkey meal, for instance. I didn't say that the meat meal in dry food is superior to wet canned or raw. Hardly. 

So moisture intake is of no import in your estimation?

From my perspective, it is not that Dr. Pierson's info is "outdated." It is that as a vet, she has seen so much unnecessary pain, suffering, and death that could have been completely avoided that she doesn't care what the ingredients in a dry diet are. In her view, a dry diet is not a species-appropriate method of feeding.

I would rather see a kitty with a home even if someone can only afford dry food. But that does not make dry food a species-appropriate food. It is not natural for a human to live on dry cereal only. It is not natural for an animal to live on dry food only. We can talk ingredients all day long, but in the end, I find the argument that highly processed food is "better" than fresh food to be lacking. There is no nutritionist on earth that would argue that highly processed food is better for a human than its fresh equivalent. Why would it be any different for our pets (concerns about homemade food aside). ?????

Of course moisture is important to me. What a question? Perhaps the problem is that you and possibly some others, are missing where I am coming from.

I have not, nor have I ever said that it is appropriate for a cat to exist on dry food alone. My own cats are receiving 80% high protein, low carb, wet canned diet. I have also looked at and tried some commercial raw. They are currently getting a small amount of high quality, Nature's Variety instinct dry kibble which is also high protein and low carb. Its expensive, but the only dry food I am willing to feed at this point. I could eliminate this I suppose, and I had plans to, but, I have come to realize that this small amount that they get is not an issue in the grand scheme of things. They are all very healthy, and thriving.

I am sure that Dr. Pierson has seen it all .. I get that. Maybe she doesn't have the time or the interest to educate people about 'good' dry food as a supplement in the diet. But there are decent dry foods as mentioned above, and plenty of people here who have used these foods, so when the subject comes up, I believe there is room to talk about these options, if someone is interested or needs to feed dry food occasionally or as portion of the diet.

 

[peaches08]

I'm certainly not Dr. Pierson and I really shouldn't speak for her, but in the conversations I and others at FDMB have had with her, there's no need to supplement the diet with dry.  I've even seen her argue that when talking about kittens.  I think it's even on her website, I'd have to look.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
It's cool, and I apologize as well.  Things could have been said in a better way on my part. 

Thank you.

 
It's true that no, I do not trust most of the commercial foods available for our cats.  It's hard enough to grocery shop for ourselves without fear (salmonella with a side of spinach anyone?).  I truly would rather most cats get Meow Mix dry than starve to death, but we all know that there are better ways to help kitties out there.  TNR, careful shopping (for ourselves as well as kitties), etc.

Believe it or not, I feel the same way about commercial food. In fact, my rotation is rather small on account. I have looked at so many and its been quite frustrating finding something I am comfortable in feeding, just on account of being so familiar with ingredients. Just recently in another thread I talked about tossing two separate cans of wild calling on account of the look and smell. But, there are some good foods. I have had several conversations back and forth with Nature's Variety and feel most comfortable with this food. Its not perfect but for ingredients, dare I say, its one of the best. Wellness, which I fed for awhile, I swear there is more potato in this food than there used to be. So, I feed less of this. I have looked at and tried raw and have another source lined up. My first choice fell through. Turns out this other commercial raw product has caused problem for some pets according to my holistic vet.

It's also easy to get caught up in "but my cats are are just fine, always have been!"  This isn't at you, oneandahalfcats.  I'm including myself in that remark.  Looking back at cats that I had as a kid, fed dry only and it was cheap dry.  Did they "survive" what we gave them?  Yes.  Did they thrive?  Honestly, no.  And I don't mean just cancers and such.  I mean things like urine smelled, hairballs (throwing up hairballs everyday), and coats that just aren't what my cats now have.  The house smelled of cat.  Not crazy cat hoarding smell, just that you could smell it.  Again, they were surviving what we did rather than thriving from it.  How many cats or other animals do you see that you have to bite your tongue and NOT start to give advice about?  It's pretty often for me.  Although I don't agree with how the OP was treated in the store.  When I fed canned and people would see me reading labels and ask why, I would give a brief reason why and show them what I'm looking at.  Most were appreciative and asked questions about foods they were feeding.

Personal experience is sometimes the best teacher .. Most of us learn from our mistakes, hopefully. I have had a few conversations in the pet food aisle and with the owner of my local pet food store. The owner is russian and quite knowledgeable and so the conversations are great. Very recently I was asked if I would be interested in a job with one of her 'competitors' who just opened up a new store in the next town over? I was flattered but said, thanks, but I do have a job 

Sorry you lost her .. Sometimes it goes that way.

I hate that expression 'its just a cat', or dog, or farm animal? I think some people just lack awareness, or education or the right priorities?

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
I'm certainly not Dr. Pierson and I really shouldn't speak for her, but in the conversations I and others at FDMB have had with her, there's no need to supplement the diet with dry.  I've even seen her argue that when talking about kittens.  I think it's even on her website, I'd have to look.

Maybe 'supplemental' is the wrong choice of words. What I mean is dry food is a small portion of the diet, something that may be given through day, but does not comprise the main component of the diet.

 

[koolkatz]

 
Maybe 'supplemental' is the wrong choice of words. What I mean is dry food is a small portion of the diet, something that may be given through day, but does not comprise the main component of the diet.

That is an option for anyone considering, but sometimes the cats will get addicted (because of the taste) to the dry food and that is all they will eat. Then you have a problem.

What I like to do is to completely avoid the risk and just feed them the wet food. That's only my opinion though.

 

[peaches08]

The odd thing about the last person who said this to me, she acted put off that I didn't know whether I could make it to a party of hers.  I was in school, and the profs were notorious for scheduling tests around certain weekends/events so that they could enjoy the festivities.  And that was a weekend that the profs were wanting to not have to grade tests.  Anyway, I smiled at her expression of disdain and said, "It's just a party!"  Let's just say that she didn't care for my comment.

 
Maybe 'supplemental' is the wrong choice of words. What I mean is dry food is a small portion of the diet, something that may be given through day, but does not comprise the main component of the diet.

I  checked her website, and she had the suggestions of leaving out frozen canned, having a friend stop by every 24 hours, and that kind of thing.  No dry.

Out of curiosity, what are situations that people need to use dry throughout the day?  I'm wondering if there are more feasible alternatives, or if it may not be necessary at all.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

I haven't had the problem of addiction to dry food in my cats. They transitioned pretty easy to wet canned and will eat most anything.

I suppose its possible that some cats become attached to dry food, but I have to think that it is the cheaper, grocery store brands that are most notorious for hooking acts. I haven't fed this kind of stuff in some time, so can't say for sure.

 

[koolkatz]

 
I haven't had the problem of addiction to dry food in my cats. They transitioned pretty easy to wet canned and will eat most anything.

I suppose its possible that some cats become attached to dry food, but I have to think that it is the cheaper, grocery store brands that are most notorious for hooking acts. I haven't fed this kind of stuff in some time, so can't say for sure.

Yeah, the brand makes a big difference in cat food. The ingredients, and all.

By the way, your Max is really cute 

 

[oneandahalfcats]

Thank you

 

 

[ldg]

If you read through that section again, I am referring to meat meal IN dry food as being superior to a meat source that would accompany it, as the moisture content is removed so there is more actual meat density in chicken and turkey meal, for instance. I didn't say that the meat meal in dry food is superior to wet canned or raw. Hardly. 

Yep, misunderstood! :lol3: Thanks for clarifying.

Of course moisture is important to me. What a question? Perhaps the problem is that you and possibly some others, are missing where I am coming from.

I have not, nor have I ever said that it is appropriate for a cat to exist on dry food alone. My own cats are receiving 80% high protein, low carb, wet canned diet. I have also looked at and tried some commercial raw. They are currently getting a small amount of high quality, Nature's Variety instinct dry kibble which is also high protein and low carb. Its expensive, but the only dry food I am willing to feed at this point. I could eliminate this I suppose, and I had plans to, but, I have come to realize that this small amount that they get is not an issue in the grand scheme of things. They are all very healthy, and thriving.

I am sure that Dr. Pierson has seen it all .. I get that. Maybe she doesn't have the time or the interest to educate people about 'good' dry food as a supplement in the diet. But there are decent dry foods as mentioned above, and plenty of people here who have used these foods, so when the subject comes up, I believe there is room to talk about these options, if someone is interested or needs to feed dry food occasionally or as portion of the diet.

Yes, many people lower the cost of feeding by including some dry food. Personally, as peaches08 has already pointed out, I think there are better options if the need is not cost-savings, but access to food.

Many cats do get addicted to dry food. It is often a problem. They also get addicted to free-feeding. If someone has cats that are otherwise, they are fortunate.

 

[peaches08]

Yep, misunderstood!

Thanks for clarifying.
Yes, many people lower the cost of feeding by including some dry food. Personally, as peaches08 has already pointed out, I think there are better options if the need is not cost-savings, but access to food.

Many cats do get addicted to dry food. It is often a problem. They also get addicted to free-feeding. If someone has cats that are otherwise, they are fortunate.

Yes, several people have managed to steer clear of kibble despite digestive issues.  For some, it is feeding more often.  For some this simply isn't possible so an "appetizer" helps decrease stomach acid enough to allow for a full feeding shortly after.  I'm sure there are more situations that I just haven't thought of.  But I wonder how many people offer kibble throughout the day just because they think their cat needs to eat when they probably don't?

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
Yes, several people have managed to steer clear of kibble despite digestive issues.  For some, it is feeding more often.  For some this simply isn't possible so an "appetizer" helps decrease stomach acid enough to allow for a full feeding shortly after.  I'm sure there are more situations that I just haven't thought of.  But I wonder how many people offer kibble throughout the day just because they think their cat needs to eat when they probably don't?

Quote:

Yep, misunderstood!

Thanks for clarifying.
Yes, many people lower the cost of feeding by including some dry food. Personally, as peaches08 has already pointed out, I think there are better options if the need is not cost-savings, but access to food.

Many cats do get addicted to dry food. It is often a problem. They also get addicted to free-feeding. If someone has cats that are otherwise, they are fortunate.

Well, for me it is certainly not about economics as NV Instinct is a pricey but good quality food. I choose to feed a bit of this and am confident that it is providing some nutrition. This is certainly preferable to feeding high calorie 'treats' which I don't feed to my cats.

While chicken/turkey meal is not going to be superior to wet canned or raw, it can be nutritious. I will qualify this in saying that not all rendered products are created equal mind you. Much depends on the quality of the product being rendered, and rendering practices. But I would expect as NV and Wellness use good quality meat sources in their canned formulas, that the same products are used in their dry kibble.

When it comes to free-feeding, this has more to do with quantity I think, than quality. Everything has calories. You can feed the best or worst wet canned or raw for that matter, to excess and a cat will become overweight. That said, there are more calories in dry food and it will depend on the cat's metabolism and how they handle what's in the food. The solution for my crew has been portion-control. They don't seem to miss grazing but are very aware when its dinner time, and will start circling when the time is approaching.

 

 

[peaches08]

 
Quote:

Well, for me it is certainly not about economics as NV Instinct is a pricey but good quality food. I choose to feed a bit of this and am confident that it is providing some nutrition. This is certainly preferable to feeding high calorie 'treats' which I don't feed to my cats.

While chicken/turkey meal is not going to be superior to wet canned or raw, it can be nutritious. I will qualify this in saying that not all rendered products are created equal mind you. Much depends on the quality of the product being rendered, and rendering practices. But I would expect as NV and Wellness use good quality meat sources in their canned formulas, that the same products are used in their dry kibble.

When it comes to free-feeding, this has more to do with quantity I think, than quality. Everything has calories. You can feed the best or worst wet canned or raw for that matter, to excess and a cat will become overweight. That said, there are more calories in dry food and it will depend on the cat's metabolism and how they handle what's in the food. The solution for my crew has been portion-control. They don't seem to miss grazing but are very aware when its dinner time, and will start circling when the time is approaching.

 

That brings up an excellent point, does anyone know how many rendering plants there are?  And where?

Just for clarity, in your case you need to provide kibble to add calories?  Or you're needing to add snacks during meal times?  I hear you about treats, other than the Temptations hairball treats that they get maybe twice a week during hairball season otherwise once a week, I don't feed treats.  Now, some days they may get a sardine or two and I'll extend their dinner time out a bit so I can sleep in, or I'll give a small bit of Cornish hen later so the sardine + Cornish hen amount adds up to a meal.

 

[ldg]

That brings up an excellent point, does anyone know how many rendering plants there are?  And where?

The industry is consolidating, and independent renderers are going out of business. In reading up on this, combined with the consolidation of slaughterhouses, it's a serious problem for farmers, especially small scale farmers.

The best info I could find on the number of plants is in a report from Food & Water Watch. Info about renders is on p 51 In 2006, there were 273 rendering plants. http://documents.foodandwaterwatch.org/doc/WheresTheLocalBeef.pdf I suspect the number is much lower than that now.

An interesting article from the National Renderers Association magazine about rendering: https://d10k7k7mywg42z.cloudfront.net/assets/4e5653badabe9d3f81003ba1/techtopicsapr11.pdf

Many are in the Midwest, none in OR, and at least 3 in CA, one outside of Sacramento . http://www.willamettelive.com/2013/...l-sustainable-meat-industry-faces-challenges/

There's one in Southern CA (Vernon) http://www.neontommy.com/2009/02/las-360tonayear-animal-renderi

Here is the location map of Valley Proteins ( http://www.valleyproteins.com/ I know if it from this article, though the number of rendering plants here is wrong as the article was written in either early 2000s or late 90s http://felineinstincts.com/successstoriescloserlookatarenderingplant/ ) http://www.valleyproteins.com/sites/default/files/full_service_map.jpg

The National Renderers Association does have a directory, but it includes equipment suppliers: http://www.nationalrenderers.org/about/directory/
They simply state "over 200 rendering plants" on their website.

 

[peaches08]

Thanks LDG!  I'll take a better look at all those articles, but I had to comment on the second one talking about grease theft.  I knew a lot of farmers pick up that grease and pour it over feed or even have their feed mills put the grease in their custom mixes before bagging it.  It increases calories and therefore you feed less.  I'm not saying it's a great or even safe practice.  I'm just saying that it is a common practice.

 

[stewball]

You are making generalizations and blanket statements. Cats are not automatically at risk for urinary tract infections solely because of dry food. There are other factors involved. Not ALL protein in dry food is plant-based, nor is ALL dry kibble high in carbs. The carb content in Orijen may be as much as 15-17% but many of the carbs are low glycemic and represent things like red lentils, peas, green lentils, pumpkin, carrots, rather than a lot potato which you will find in other dry foods. Kibble is not the only food that can contain carbs and grains. Many of the grain-free wet canned contain either potatoes, sweet potatoes, etc.
[/quote
I've had 8 cats who only eat dry food and hsvru ndvet had any problems. I buy the best I can without any cereals. They're eating ' now'
at the moment and I give then schesir weti at night for a treat
They also have plenty of water and they drink.

 

Has anybody heard of Now and Schesir? I'd like to know if it is healthy

 

[stewball]

 

You are making generalizations and blanket statements. Cats are not automatically at risk for urinary tract infections solely because of dry food. There are other factors involved. Not ALL protein in dry food is plant-based, nor is ALL dry kibble high in carbs. The carb content in Orijen may be as much as 15-17% but many of the carbs are low glycemic and represent things like red lentils, peas, green lentils, pumpkin, carrots, rather than a lot potato which you will find in other dry foods. Kibble is not the only food that can contain carbs and grains. Many of the grain-free wet canned contain either potatoes, sweet potatoes, etc.
[/quote
I've had 8 cats who only eat dry food and hsvru ndvet had any problems. I buy the best I can without any cereals. They're eating ' now'
at the moment and I give then schesir weti at night for a treat
They also have plenty of water and they drink.

 

 

Also merrick. Is that supposed to be any good. Please reply somebody.

 

 

[oneandahalfcats]

Also merrick. Is that supposed to be any good. Please reply somebody.

Hi @Stewball: I am somewhat familiar with both Shesir and Now foods.

Shesir is a very high protein, low fat and no carb food making it a good choice for a wet meat protein, but not something you would want to serve exclusively as the fat content would be too low. Depending on the variety you are feeding, the majority of the products do contain tuna however, so my one recommendation would be to not feed the tuna type every day, but mix it up with some of the chicken-based formulas.

The NOW brand cat food is an okay grain-free dry, but is fairly high in carbs like potatoes, potato-flour, peas, which are at the top of the list. There is also a fair amount of fruit filler a little later on. The higher up ingredients are, the more you can expect of this in the food. The senior formula features deboned turkey as a first ingredient which is good, but the duck/salmon a little later in the list (after the potatoes), makes me question the amount of this in the food.

A better alternative in this line is the GO brand food which is also made by the same company as NOW (Petcurean). GO Brand features 7 meat proteins as the first ingredients (plus two later in the list) versus the 3 (total) meat proteins that are in the NOW. There are still a few carbs but these are later in the list. There are also canned varieties of GO Duck, Turkey and Chicken pates in the links below, if you are interested in trying some other wet canned.

GO Brand Turkey and Duck Grain-free Dry : http://www.petcurean.com/for-cats/go/fit-and-free-grain-free-chicken-turkey-duck

Petcurean GO Brand Wet and Dry Varieties : http://www.petcurean.com/for-cats/go/

For a lower carb, higher protein food, you might want to take a look at Nature's Variety Instinct Duck and Turkey : http://www.instinctpetfood.com/product/instinct-grain-free-kibble-cat-food-duck-turkey-meal

The Merrick line of food looks to be comparable to the NOW food. Some decent meat proteins. Carbs such as potato are high in the list but there is less fruit filler.

 

[irinasak]

Schesir wet food, like Applaws, is a supplementary feed, which means it lacks the vitamins and minerals to make it complete. Even the ones who have some vitamins added are labeled supplementary. This means it should not be more than 15% of the cat's diet. I fed Schesir for a while and all my cats liked it. I stopped feeding it though because:

1. why feed supplementary feed and risk vitamin deficiencies

2. it is outrageously expensive for what is has to offer (only Almo Nature is more expensive)

3. it has rice or fruits, depending on the formula (and I don't want to feed rice or fruits to my cats)

I don't know about Schesir dry or about the other brands @Stewball mentioned.