Introduction problems

[Columbine]

I've had Asha (a 9 months-ish burmese/bombay type girl who I rescued from living a semi feral life at a farm - she was heavily bullied by another semi feral and was in a poor state. She's unspayed as yet - waiting for her to be strong enough for the op) for about 3 weeks now. I have one existing cat - Shadow (a 13 year old British blue shorthair boy who's never met a non related cat before. He lived with his brother - my avatar pic - until Cali died a just over a year ago). I also have 2 dogs who are used to cats.

Asha's been gaining in confidence. I've done plenty of scent swapping with actively positive reactions on her part - sniff,purr,cuddle the scent sock . Shadow's reactions have been neutral - sniff and ignore or turn back on the sent sock, but being particularly interested in and loving to me when I'm covered in Asha's scent.

The two cats are well aware that the other is in the house, and have seen each other from a distance. Asha displayed curiosity, and Shad turned his back to ignore - I think he was more focused on the chicken in the oven

Yesterday and today I've been doing the beginnings of site swapping with Asha...its a big house:Shadow's mainly a downstairs cat but his favoured litter box is at the top of the stairs. Asha's been exploring a little upstairs. Today was the first day she's ventured more than a few steps out of her room. She started off tentatively investigating the bedrooms, which are mostly 'doggy'. I turned my back for a moment and Asha made it downstairs. Mum walked in on Asha and Shadow. He'd been asleep and started off chilled. She just sat looking at him. No growls, hisses, fluffing up etc. Then Shad moved and became fully aware of her. Asha ran straight back to her room, but remained curious.

Shadow, on the other hand, was totally spooked by the encounter. He was really unsettled, fluffed up, big eyes etc but no noise. He went and hid , tail down and commando crawling. I made a big fuss of him and gave him treats, then (after he'd appeared to relax a little for purrs and tummy rubs) carried him to every room to show him she wasn't around to ambush him, and also showed him her shut door. It took him a very long time to totally chill. He kept craning to see through doorways and round corners in case she was about to appear.

I feel dreadful about the whole thing. I'm going to get 3 Feliway diffusers plugged in tomorrow (one each for the 2 main rooms downstairs and one for the hall/stairs area). I intend to give Shad a week's break,then to introduce Asha in a dog crate or cat carrier with lots of treats for both (assuming Shad re settles quickly). I'm just really worried I've blown it with the pair of them...

 

[fhicat]

I intend to give Shad a week's break,then to introduce Asha in a dog crate or cat carrier with lots of treats for both (assuming Shad re settles quickly). I'm just really worried I've blown it with the pair of them...

A setback, sure, but not the end of the world. A week's break sounds like a good step. The dog crate idea is great; in fact, I'm tagging two lovely advisors who introduced me to the dog cage, @Feralvr  @Denice  @Norachan.

Well, three, but they're all lovely anyways.

I would put Asha in the crate, then somewhere slightly out of the heavily trafficked areas since Shadow isn't used to strange cats yet. Since she's been in her room mostly, perhaps you could crate her when you open her room door for Shadow to "walk in" on. 

Looks like you're doing fantastic otherwise though, but wanted to say I've seen many "setbacks" and yeah, they're discouraging, but cats do recover from those -- unless they absolutely have to be only cats.

 

[Columbine]

Update: Shadow's his normal, confident self this morning He ate breakfast normally, came for cuddles, demand two fresh options for second breakfast...both of which he rejected (that's normal for my fussy ruler of the house too)...and used his favoured litter box right outside Asha's room with no worries. I'm hoping this all means I haven't traumatised him too much.

Asha's absolutely herself as well..I wasn't too worried about her though because she reacted normally from the moment she went back to her room.

fhicat Thanks for your reply. It helps to know I'm not alone in screw ups

With crating Asha for the next intro, should I introduce Shad to Asha's 'sanctuary' (bearing in mind the bullying she went through at the farm...I don't want to make her feel insecure and possibly have a negative reaction) or should I set up another crate elsewhere for her? I don't want to move her initial crate because it's actually up a ladder (very odd house layout) and it'll be a nightmare to get it down and back up again after. I have a pop up dog crate about the same size (greyhound size) made of a kind of mesh and nylon fabric - the same kind of thing that the fabric cat carriers are made of. Would that be ok/better for the intros? I have a smaller (labrador sized) metal crate too, but I'd have to get that back from a friend first. I also have a couple of giant cat carriers (the biggest would actually hold two full grown British shorthairs comfortably...I could actually fit in it (just) aged 10/11 too :lol3: (yes, I was a very odd child...).

I just want to make the right choices going forward...can't cope with any more screw ups :anon:

 

[Columbine]

Asha's met the greyhound twice now...hissed and hit him a couple of times while on my lap (all he did was look at her ) but didn't run. He just looked so sad and reproachfull. I don't think Asha had her claws out though.

I've started introductions with Shadow using a crate and blanket. I'm going to have to change tactics because Shadow's confident enough to get close to the crate but it makes Asha feel threatened because she can't retreat if she wants to. There's been a tiny but of hissing and growling on her part, but none on his. The second I open the crate she heads straight for her room. Shad doesn't try to attack her or anything though, so I'm hoping its positive overall. Asha's not showing agression either - her slight hisses and growls are her uncertainty rather than 'I want to kill you' - the second Shad backs off (and he does listen to what Asha says) Asha calms down. Hope that makes sense.

I don't quite know where to go from here. It's a big house. Shadow's main territory is downstairs, with his most special sleep chair and dining table being at one end of the house. Asha's sanctuary room is upstairs at the other end of the house. It seems that both cats will walk away rather than confront each other. I'm almost wondering about leaving Asha's door open (only in the daytime when we're about, I hasten to add) and seeing what happens. Feeding on either sides of a door just won't work...crazy house layout.

Asha's wary about leaving her room anyway, and much more so since I tried the caged introduction setup. I can't use her door for intros as she spends most of her time on a mezzanine level (where all her stuff is), and the room door is at the top of the stairs and opposite Shadow's litter box. Shadow doesn't believe in eating upstairs, and Asha doesn't like being downstairs...plus downstairs is totally open plan. I'm hoping that just leaving her door open will work.

 

[fhicat]

 Asha's not showing agression either - her slight hisses and growls are her uncertainty rather than 'I want to kill you' - the second Shad backs off (and he does listen to what Asha says) Asha calms down. Hope that makes sense.
 

Not only it makes sense, it's actually very good news. This "don't come near me" attitude is, believe it or not, the halfway mark. Shadow was spooked by her in that one encounter; now it seems he recognizes her and is "submitting" to her "empty" threats. Kind of like a "okay okay, I'll go somewhere else."

I don't quite know where to go from here. 

I think you should stay in this phase for now. Keep doing what you're doing, let them see each other and growl at each other for now. You can probably skip the door since they've already seen each other and it looks like they're okay with it for now (as in, no physical harm or great emotional stress). I would try to see whether this don't-come-near-me-and-we're-good phase lasts. Ideally you want to give maybe a week or two -- going by your pace -- before thinking about the next step.
Hm, I don't think that's really necessary... Asha should know she's safe in the cage with the blanket. Open just a wee bit, don't take the blanket off completely. Of course, if she's actually showing real signs of fearfulness, then ignore what I said, but otherwise I think she should be fine in there.

 

[Columbine]

Thank you. The reason I'm hyper concious of Asha feeling cornered is because of the situation she came from. She was basically trapped in a cellar by another very dominant semi feral female. Each time I fed Asha prior to catching her, Aashka (as I named the big girl) would run up and attack Asha, sending her back down to the cellar. I don't want to make her feel threatened like that here.

To do the cage intros I have to carry her downstairs as she won't be coaxed with food. Before I started the process she was spending time down her ladder and exploring (mainly) the upstairs a little, including coming down the corridor to my bedroom when bribed with food to encourage her. After day one of cage intros, she stopped coming down her ladder and out of her room. I had to carry her down the ladder to take her to the cage downstairs, and later carry her to my bedroom for a meal. By the end of the night she wouldn't let me near her if I was in a position to pick her up (although perfectly happy when I was sitting / lying down / playing with her). I'm just worried I was knocking her confidence by taking her down. Interestingly, I haven't taken her out of her space today, and at 11pmish she took herself off to briefly investigate the bedrooms, and has stopped shrinking away from me so much. That's why I'm wondering about letting her do things totally on her terms, especially since Shadow hasn't shown any agression towards her at all. So far, the greyhound's come off worst, and all he wanted to do was say hi to me!

 

[fhicat]

Thank you. The reason I'm hyper concious of Asha feeling cornered is because of the situation she came from. She was basically trapped in a cellar by another very dominant semi feral female. Each time I fed Asha prior to catching her, Aashka (as I named the big girl) would run up and attack Asha, sending her back down to the cellar. I don't want to make her feel threatened like that here.

To do the cage intros I have to carry her downstairs as she won't be coaxed with food. Before I started the process she was spending time down her ladder and exploring (mainly) the upstairs a little, including coming down the corridor to my bedroom when bribed with food to encourage her. After day one of cage intros, she stopped coming down her ladder and out of her room. I had to carry her down the ladder to take her to the cage downstairs, and later carry her to my bedroom for a meal. By the end of the night she wouldn't let me near her if I was in a position to pick her up (although perfectly happy when I was sitting / lying down / playing with her). I'm just worried I was knocking her confidence by taking her down. Interestingly, I haven't taken her out of her space today, and at 11pmish she took herself off to briefly investigate the bedrooms, and has stopped shrinking away from me so much. That's why I'm wondering about letting her do things totally on her terms, especially since Shadow hasn't shown any agression towards her at all. So far, the greyhound's come off worst, and all he wanted to do was say hi to me!

Oh, that changes things.

Didn't know about her past... the cage thing would dredge up bad memories, for sure. I'm just a wee bit concerned if it's too quick, but ultimately you should follow your parental instinct, since I'm not actually there and don't know the cats as well as you do. Subtle signs only a parent can pick up on, etc. Will they be roaming if you're not home?

 

[Columbine]

I'm only leaving Asha's door open when someone's home and supervising if she does move. That's both for the cats' sake and because of the dogs. The greyhound is no problem, but I have a labrador who's a little more boisterous. Ideally, I have at least two of us about - one for Asha and one around the dogs just in case (there shouldn't be a problem with dogs as they're both well used to cats, but I don't want to take any chances).

Sorry all these posts are so long. I really appreciate your help and advice

 

[fhicat]

I'm very interested in seeing how the introductions go, so do post here often and let us know!

 

[Columbine]

Yesterday was a big day for Asha. In the evening she came out and explored a fair bit. First she went to Leah's (labrador) bedroom and into her dog crate. Lots of kneading went on. As soon as I moved to see where see was, Asha went back to her room as fast as she could! It's as though she expects to be told off for venturing out. I left her alone and she came out again. She was in and out of my room, sniffing and rubbing up against everything and on and off my lap. She was wary of Pixie (greyhound) who was on the bed. He looked at her but that was all...I think he's as wary of her as she is of him I think she'd come to find me to ask for some food. I take that to be a good sign.

I went downstairs to get some food for her and got sidetracked. After a bit, Asha appeared in the living room. I put down her food and she had a couple of bites, and then explored the back of the room cautiously. She was worried by the sounds of the fire, and wary of Leah too. Leah was wonderful - all she did was go from lying flat out to lying upright so she could see what was going on. Asha shot out when Leah moved, but soon came back in again. Then Shadow realised something was going on. He came to within about three feet of Asha and just stood and looked. After 10 secs or so Asha's nerve broke and she shot back to her room. Shad made as if to follow but changed his mind when I went after Asha with her food.

This morning Asha ventured downstairs again. I was with Pixie and Shadow on one sofa and Leah was in her bed at the far end of the room. Shadow jumped down and faced Asha. Again,they were roughly three feet apart. They stood looking at each other for 30secs to a minute. No fluffing up,growling or hissing. They both had slightly twitching tails but that was it. Someone came to the door and Leah started her guard dog act at the far window. Asha couldn't cope with that, and ran straight back to her room again.

I'm really hoping these are all positive signs. I just hope the cats looking at each other wasn't a staring contest.

 

[Columbine]

Another update:-

Asha's continuing to explore. No more beating up Pixie, thank goodness, though they're both wary of each other. She's had a couple more staring bouts with Shad - still no obviously negative signs Unfortunately, tonight Leah wanted to know what was going on and ran in a boisterous circle between them. Shad ran for his dining table and Asha for her room. At least there was no dog on cat chasing (Leah does know better than that but occasionally forgets herself ). Asha didn't retreat all the way up her ladder though, so she can't have been all that worried. In each staring episode Asha backs off first. Shadow's fascinated and curious, but wary too. He occasionally makes as if to follow her, but never goes more than a few steps.

Asha's gaining in confidence upstairs when there are no other animals moving about. She made off with a pack of cat treats (100% meat ones I keep for my fussy greyhound...he expects a bedtime snack :lol3: ) then demanded that I give her some! She and Pixie both profited from that venture She's much warier downstairs - the log fire really spooks her. I hope in time she'll realise that it's not out to get her!

 

[fhicat]

That's great! 

 Looks like letting Asha out on her own time works better. She seems to know that she has her sanctuary that she can run back to when she feels overwhelmed.

Just keep in mind that intros aren't necessarily a smooth upward slope. Just because there were no hisses today does not mean there will never be hisses ever again. I'm not trying to paint a grim picture, but to encourage you not to dwell too much on minor setbacks. Over time there should be noticeable improvements, but the individual days could be slightly bumpy, and that's OK!

 

[Columbine]

I know it won't all be plain sailing. Asha's only allowed out when the other animals are heavily supervised. I'm just waiting for the fur to fly! (while hoping it will never happen, of course). Doesn't stop me wanting a smooth integration though

 

[feralvr]

A setback, sure, but not the end of the world. A week's break sounds like a good step. The dog crate idea is great; in fact, I'm tagging two lovely advisors who introduced me to the dog cage, @Feralvr

Your tooooooooooo kind.

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Columbine - you have quite the wonderful fur family! :heart: - I completely understand that you want to wait to get Asha spayed until such time as she is perfectly healthy but.......... until then, IMO, I would not be letting her out of her room socializing with the other cats until she is spayed and healed up completely. Her hormones could make her behave in such a way that you cannot see or understand but Shadow certainly can. Adding another cat to the mix is stressful enough on everyone but one that is intact adds even more. SOOOO - first and foremost - since she sounds healthy to me, then I would get her in for her spay asap.

It sounds though that things are going really, really well considering everything! Using a cage for introductions has a two-fold option. One for people who have no other safe room to confine a newbie coming into the home. The cage/enclosure is the next best thing. The second use for the cage is for only the beginning stages of introductions by taking the new cat from the safe room to the cage in the main room of the house for a few minutes at a time. I would only do this when the cats are ready for a visual and that scent swapping has already gone extremely successful. This can be a great way for the cats to see each other and the resident cats feel confident that the newbie cannot get loose. The resident cats can then approach the cage on their own free will. Remember though, at each stage of introductions there is going to be some hissing/growling, but it should become less and less. IF there is more than hissing/growling and aggression (flat ears, crouching to attack, chasing, etc.) then take a step back to the stage where the cats were ok with and comfortable with each other. Otherwise, things will escalate and future, lifelong relationships could be damaged.

If it were me, I would put Asha back in her safe room until she were spayed. This will be very difficult now since she is already used to coming out BUT she does run to her room when she is frightened so that tells me she is still attached to her safe place. IF she goes into heat or is even in the beginnings of going into heat, believe me, things are going to go bad very quickly. I don't want that to happen for you! So make that vet appt. quickly. BEST OF LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Columbine]

feralvr I used the cage for intros twice in the second scenario you described..I think anyway It just became clear that Asha felt she needed the option to retreat, which is why I changed tactics. The very first meeting was never meant to happen - it was my screw up :anon:

I'd be quite happy to spay Asha now - its the vet who wants to wait. I've only had Asha three weeks; when I rescued her she was half the weight she should be (holding her was like holding a warm furry skeleton), severely dehydrated, so pale we thought she had FIV, and had multiple old infected bite wounds on her paw to the extent that the vets felt the paw might have permanent scarring, not to mention scabs and bruising in various places. The vets are cautious anyway, and want to be certain Asha can withstand the op. Asha's also had digestive and urinary troubles to do with re feeding (and yes, her poop and pee got thoroughly tested before we came to that conclusion), and is on a veterinary GI diet whilst she recovers. At the very least, the vets want her back on a normal diet and stable before proceeding.

Asha acts perfectly healthy, but the vet doesn't want to risk triggering any setbacks. I hope that all makes sense, and I apologise if I'm repeating myself!

I'll definitely consider stopping the cat to cat intros (I don't see the dogs as so much of an issue regarding hormones) for right now. Asha's mostly sticking upstairs - she won't go more than a couple of feet into the living room - and Shadow's very much a downstairs cat. It won't be hard to keep them apart whilst letting Asha explore a little for the time being...There are three of us to two of them after all

I'm pleased to say that there's never been the slightest hint of agression Shad's just incredibly laid back (typical British shorthair) and Asha's very submissive - she seems to always go for flight as her first option. The only growls I've heard from her are when I was doing caged intros and she had no escape.

Thank you so much for all your advice...and do please keep it coming

 

[feralvr]

AW - poor Asha. She sounds like she came from a terrible situation and in awful condition. Thankfully, now, she is safe and being cared for properly!!! I now understand why vets want to wait a bit for spay surgery. Still, I would not allow interactions with the other cats until such time. The dogs, of course, are just fine! Also - and you may already know this - but unaltered females do spray their territory just as much as males do. That is why I suggest her staying in a confined space and what I would do to avoid any sprays that may be getting missed. Of course, it is totally up to you and I am just informing of the possible scenarios that could occur. Asha sounds very, very sweet as does your other two kitties. I am sure they will all get along famously.

I hope Asha continues to heal from her past, gain weight and become strong and healthy as I am sure she will under your care. All my best with everything and do keep us posted!

Forgot to add in this wonderful updated article we have on introductions:

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/the-ultimate-yet-simplified-guide-to-introducing-cats

 

[Columbine]

Thanks for the link. It's a really useful article

It's good to have the info about females - I am aware there could be a spraying/marking issue, but my previous indoor cat experience has been almost exclusively male. I'm watching Asha closely for signs of heat (or...really hope not this...pregnancy). I'm limiting her exploring time now, but I still want her to have a little supervised freedom. The second I see any hint of heat starting she'll be shut away. It's possible her heat cycle won't start yet because of her low weight (thinking of what happens to human females who are in a similar state of starvation) but I really don't know enough to comment

She's cracking me up today. She stays in her room until she wants something, then she comes and bugs me until I do what she's after...it started yesterday actually; I suddenly heard the loudest meow in my ear - Asha had come to say she'd just pooped and would I mind removing it immediately :lol3: She doesn't understand about burying it herself. Tonight I heard movement in Shadow's litter box (he likes a covered one). I poked my head round the door to see Asha emerging from it! I know she'd used it because it had just been cleaned. I hope it's doesn't cause Shadow any problem :cross:

Just a point...I sadly have only one cat apart from Asha. We lost Cali (Shadow's litter mate and my avatar pic) to chf a little over a year ago. Current head count is two cats, two dogs and a bolshy, opinionated exmoor pony (who I've had from a year old)!

Thanks for all help and advice...and for the vibes too :rub:

 

[feralvr]

OH let's hope for hope that Asha is NOT pregnant!!! :cross: :cross: She sounds VERY entertaining to say the least and knows how to ask kindly for what she want . I am so happy for you that your found such a sweetie and I think she needs you just as much as you need her. I am sorry about missing in your first post about Shadow's littermate, Cali. I think Shadow will really come to love Asha and enjoy her just as much as you are.

I hope in her next vet check that it is determined that she is not pregnant and that she is gaining great health can undergo her spay surgery. Loads of vibes for you all.

 

[Columbine]

Asha's doing great Thankfully, the pregnancy scare is most likely over...no change in nipples size/colour and no shape change that I can see. She'd have to be four weeks along by now at least, so I'd expect some physical signs by now if she was pregnant.

She's getting bolder moving around the house...even if the most frequent reason for coming out is to tell me she's hungry! If she's really impatient, she comes down to the foot of the stairs to wait for me instead of waiting at the top of her ladder.

She's no longer phased by the greyhound. I think she's stopped hissing at him now. She doesn't want to get really close, but is happy to ignore him, and he her. The labrador's another story. She's terratorial over places and me. She started (two steps maybe) to chase Asha. Asha got out of the way but didn't act like prey. I think they managed to pass each other in the corridor last night with no incident. I think it's all looking positive.

I was planning to hold off on cat to cat intros until after the spaying. Shadow had other ideas! He's decided that he wants to make friends. Asha was on my bedroom windowsill a couple of nights ago. Shadow came in and started to get on my lap (I was in a low chair under the windowsill). Asha hissed and Shad backed off a little way, but stayed in the room. Started with big eyes, then Asha looked away and so did Shad. They took it in turns looking at each other and did a little blinking. Shad went to the doorway when the greyhound came in. Asha came onto my lap. Shad moved back in. Asha hissed and started a soft growl, but stopped when I gave her a light poke. They continued the look at each other, look down, look away, tentative blink sequence. When Asha got really tense Shad backed off a little way but didn't leave. It was like he was saying 'I'm happy to share but it's my house too, I'm not a threat but I'm not backing down either. I respect you're nervous and need some space, but you're going to have to get used to me.'

Since that evening, Shad has a new routine. Every morning after Asha's had breakfast he goes up her ladder and just sits at the top for a few minutes. The first time he did this I was there but I couldn't see him. Asha could, and was growling softly. I just thought the dogs barking had spooked her! The growl didn't change pitch and stayed soft. Asha made no move towards or away from him (she was on top of her crate). It felt like she was saying 'mum, help, I'm not sure, help..' Since then, Shad goes up every morning, and wants to say goodnight to her too (we don't let him as she's still crated at night).

I'm thinking this is all looking good. It's just so sweet how Shad wants to make friends with her :heart3:

 

[fhicat]

D'aw. They are such smart kitties. It's amazing how well they communicate, and how much we can pick up on what they're saying just by observing them. We humans waste so much time on words and sentences, and these guys tell entire stories without uttering a single word.

You are lucky, your introductions are one of the faster ones.