Cat Spirit I think you might have missed reading a few posts......
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Injured feral cat! need to trap..
- Thread starter pamela
- Start Date
Pamela,
FeLV is a very different illness from FIV. It is much more communicable - http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/felv.html
However, like FIV, a single positve test performed at the vet's doesn't mean a cat will develop the disease. Which does create a delimna for testing feral cats.
1. Release a + feral which may infect others and/or die a horrible death.
2. PTS a + feral which may have overcome the disease, led a 'normal' life and posed no danger to others.
3. Quarantine a + feral for weeks or months until a more accurate determination can be made. This would bog down every TNR program as well as totally traumatize any feral.
4. Not test - which in reality is a cheaper version of 1. but pretending it isn't.
FeLV is a very different illness from FIV. It is much more communicable - http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/felv.html
However, like FIV, a single positve test performed at the vet's doesn't mean a cat will develop the disease. Which does create a delimna for testing feral cats.
1. Release a + feral which may infect others and/or die a horrible death.
2. PTS a + feral which may have overcome the disease, led a 'normal' life and posed no danger to others.
3. Quarantine a + feral for weeks or months until a more accurate determination can be made. This would bog down every TNR program as well as totally traumatize any feral.
4. Not test - which in reality is a cheaper version of 1. but pretending it isn't.
Admittedly, I cannot speak for how other organizations deal with FIV and FELK because I volunteer with Alley Cat Allies spay/neuter clinic and their primary goal is spay/neuter so FIV/FELK testing is not done at that clinic.
4. Not test - which in reality is a cheaper version of 1. but pretending it isn't...
I disagree with that statement...unless you follow a colony where a FIV or FELV feral has been rereleased out and 1. give scientific evidence that the FIV/FELV has caused it's early death AND 2. that it has somehow managed to infect other negative cats in it's colony...it is currently unclear if testing versus not testing makes a huge difference.
Katie
4. Not test - which in reality is a cheaper version of 1. but pretending it isn't...
I disagree with that statement...unless you follow a colony where a FIV or FELV feral has been rereleased out and 1. give scientific evidence that the FIV/FELV has caused it's early death AND 2. that it has somehow managed to infect other negative cats in it's colony...it is currently unclear if testing versus not testing makes a huge difference.
Katie
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Katie,
ACA is a wonderful organization, there is no arguement. But the references you posted here are a bit out-dated and lean somewhat to the inaccurate because there is so much more information out there to contradict what they claim is their stance.
Spaying and neutering though it will reduce the population of the cats, it will not be the deciding factor to stop the spread of disease. Depending on the condition of the cats out in the wild, an infected cat let loose to wander, can and will infect others in various ways. Sharing their kills or their food, drinking from the same water source, the facts about this disease are really still in the grey area and experts are learning more as they research and take a closer look.
It is hard enough to find homes for healthy cats, finding homes for health-compromised cats is extremely difficult, and the person who does take the cat, cannot have other cats, or they have to keep the cat in seclusion to protect the others. And although all of us would like to think that we can save them all, the reality is quite different, and sometimes you have to sacrifice some to save others. It is a tough choice, and in the real life of a rescuer, it is one we make to many times for many different reasons.
Here are a couple of links to leave in this thread:
Current Vaccination Guidelines & Protocol
Risk Assessment (VIN)
The information above comes from another source who is quite knowledgeable in the field of infectious diseases in cats. I asked her for her help.
This is my final thought. Pamela with her good heart tried to help a cat, and although that cat was helped in a way her heart was not ready to accept, in this instance, it was the right thing to do. The risks were to high.
I know that in dealing with the illnesses of my animals over the years, I found that the vet community if they can medically manage something easily, they will do it. But if it is a difficult disease or hard to track down, instead of trying to understand the disease- they turn to medicine to take away the pain, to reduce the problem but they cannot cure it. In the last few years I see that trend slowly changing. Now, some are trying to understand what exactly they need to cure, then they are going out and trying to cure it. You can't fault them- it is how they learn.
Most rescue groups hook up with a vet who will reduce rates, and set the protocol for the group. But is that vet up on all the problems affecting feral cats and strays? Usually not-
ACA is a wonderful organization, there is no arguement. But the references you posted here are a bit out-dated and lean somewhat to the inaccurate because there is so much more information out there to contradict what they claim is their stance.
Spaying and neutering though it will reduce the population of the cats, it will not be the deciding factor to stop the spread of disease. Depending on the condition of the cats out in the wild, an infected cat let loose to wander, can and will infect others in various ways. Sharing their kills or their food, drinking from the same water source, the facts about this disease are really still in the grey area and experts are learning more as they research and take a closer look.
It is hard enough to find homes for healthy cats, finding homes for health-compromised cats is extremely difficult, and the person who does take the cat, cannot have other cats, or they have to keep the cat in seclusion to protect the others. And although all of us would like to think that we can save them all, the reality is quite different, and sometimes you have to sacrifice some to save others. It is a tough choice, and in the real life of a rescuer, it is one we make to many times for many different reasons.
Here are a couple of links to leave in this thread:
Current Vaccination Guidelines & Protocol
Risk Assessment (VIN)
The information above comes from another source who is quite knowledgeable in the field of infectious diseases in cats. I asked her for her help.
This is my final thought. Pamela with her good heart tried to help a cat, and although that cat was helped in a way her heart was not ready to accept, in this instance, it was the right thing to do. The risks were to high.
I know that in dealing with the illnesses of my animals over the years, I found that the vet community if they can medically manage something easily, they will do it. But if it is a difficult disease or hard to track down, instead of trying to understand the disease- they turn to medicine to take away the pain, to reduce the problem but they cannot cure it. In the last few years I see that trend slowly changing. Now, some are trying to understand what exactly they need to cure, then they are going out and trying to cure it. You can't fault them- it is how they learn.
Most rescue groups hook up with a vet who will reduce rates, and set the protocol for the group. But is that vet up on all the problems affecting feral cats and strays? Usually not-
MA - the risk assessment url doesn't work properly. Thanks for the vaccinations link.
Pamela - This thread is so heartbreaking! I can understand how devastated you must feel. But I agree with the others - you must not beat up on yourself over this. You did a wonderful, wonderful thing, and whenever something happens that I don't understand I always rely on my belief that everything happens for a reason. There is absolutely no way to know what the state of Giles' health was - and though none of us would want to trade a life for education, look at how much we're all learning from your tragic experience. In the end you may have had to put him down anyway, please don't forget that. The decision was quick, made for you on the advice of professionals, and while none of that helps with the pain you're going through now, I hope that all of our support can at least assuage some of the guilt you're burdening your heart with. You're an angel with a heart of gold, and what has happened doesn't change that one iota.
Pamela - This thread is so heartbreaking! I can understand how devastated you must feel. But I agree with the others - you must not beat up on yourself over this. You did a wonderful, wonderful thing, and whenever something happens that I don't understand I always rely on my belief that everything happens for a reason. There is absolutely no way to know what the state of Giles' health was - and though none of us would want to trade a life for education, look at how much we're all learning from your tragic experience. In the end you may have had to put him down anyway, please don't forget that. The decision was quick, made for you on the advice of professionals, and while none of that helps with the pain you're going through now, I hope that all of our support can at least assuage some of the guilt you're burdening your heart with. You're an angel with a heart of gold, and what has happened doesn't change that one iota.
Hissy...I spoke to Nathan Winograd at a recent conference and his words were incredibly compelling regarding why they do not test for the disease...1. due to false positives 2. only 1 in 10 cats that show the disease will actually die from it (the other 9 will live with it) 3. Given that testing costs apply...is it better to spay/neuter more cats (preventing births) or spay/neuter less cats and "test"? If you go to the Feral and Stray forum..I posted Nathan Winograd's booklet on caring for feral cats...his stance on FIV testing starts on page 10.
I have no issue with groups that choose to test for their own reasons (and when does what happens to domesticated cats in shelter have any bearing on ferals?? It's not likely we are going to place most feral adults into homes) but to say that testing MUST be performed isn't necessarily accurate. Simply putting that out there gives fuel to those who would say...well.."why not kill them all then if they are sooo susceptible to disease??"
This is what Nathan said in the No More Homeless Pets Forum:
The notion that outdoor cats are guaranteed a life of disease is contradicted by the facts (In San Francisco, for example, ten years of feral cat TNR demonstrated that the FeLV and FIV rate in feral cats was about 1-2%, the same as the pet cat population in a crowded city where most people kept them indoors). This idea that life on the streets is hard for all defies common experience. If you work in a shelter, do what I call the “chubby†test. For every feral cat that comes in a three or six month period, mark whether they look healthy and of adequate weight, or whether they are scrawny and sickly. For most shelters, most of the ferals will be plump – having found some niche where they are eating and doing well. There will always be counter-examples. But for the most part, life on the streets ain't so bad (at any rate, are we actually going to accept the ludicrous claim that because some feral cats will suffer, all feral cats should be killed as a preventative?) So stop promoting it as incontrovertible.
I simply want to question the notion that testing MUST be performed or that DEATH is the answer to a FIV feral cat.
Katie
I have no issue with groups that choose to test for their own reasons (and when does what happens to domesticated cats in shelter have any bearing on ferals?? It's not likely we are going to place most feral adults into homes) but to say that testing MUST be performed isn't necessarily accurate. Simply putting that out there gives fuel to those who would say...well.."why not kill them all then if they are sooo susceptible to disease??"
This is what Nathan said in the No More Homeless Pets Forum:
The notion that outdoor cats are guaranteed a life of disease is contradicted by the facts (In San Francisco, for example, ten years of feral cat TNR demonstrated that the FeLV and FIV rate in feral cats was about 1-2%, the same as the pet cat population in a crowded city where most people kept them indoors). This idea that life on the streets is hard for all defies common experience. If you work in a shelter, do what I call the “chubby†test. For every feral cat that comes in a three or six month period, mark whether they look healthy and of adequate weight, or whether they are scrawny and sickly. For most shelters, most of the ferals will be plump – having found some niche where they are eating and doing well. There will always be counter-examples. But for the most part, life on the streets ain't so bad (at any rate, are we actually going to accept the ludicrous claim that because some feral cats will suffer, all feral cats should be killed as a preventative?) So stop promoting it as incontrovertible.
I simply want to question the notion that testing MUST be performed or that DEATH is the answer to a FIV feral cat.
Katie
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Katie,
I am glad you found someone that you consider has a compelling arguement in this area. All I am saying is that there is so much conflicting information out there from all the sites pro and con included, and just like in a courtroom, an organization is not going to take an expert into their cause that makes the case against what they believe- they will go with one that propagates their policy despite the fact of invalid results. If you really look into this disease and all of the research out there, you will find that FIV and FeLV studies indicate the incidences of this among feral cats are higher than that of domestic cats. That also does not account for the cats and or kittens that die from the disease and are never discovered because no one knows of their existence in the first place.
I am not here to debate the issue with you, just asking you keep an open mind and start looking at all the results not just one group's statistics.
Laurie, try these links:
Feline Vaccination Protocols
Retrovirus
Impact of FIV and Stray Cats
I am glad you found someone that you consider has a compelling arguement in this area. All I am saying is that there is so much conflicting information out there from all the sites pro and con included, and just like in a courtroom, an organization is not going to take an expert into their cause that makes the case against what they believe- they will go with one that propagates their policy despite the fact of invalid results. If you really look into this disease and all of the research out there, you will find that FIV and FeLV studies indicate the incidences of this among feral cats are higher than that of domestic cats. That also does not account for the cats and or kittens that die from the disease and are never discovered because no one knows of their existence in the first place.
I am not here to debate the issue with you, just asking you keep an open mind and start looking at all the results not just one group's statistics.
Laurie, try these links:
Feline Vaccination Protocols
Retrovirus
Impact of FIV and Stray Cats
Hissy...I read the attachments and still do not believe the amounts are significant enough to "retrap" and "test" a colony of fixed ferals where 1 was found to have FIV...that is what Pamela's initial question was about and that is what I am responding to. Pamela had stated she would not be able to afford to test all the ferals with the cost for Giles at $180 (test and euthanization)!!!
Here is my question to everyone. IF you found 1 cat in a colony of fixed ferals that tested positive for FIV...would you then test all the other ferals (given the cost and the fact that new ferals will most likely come along that need fixing). Even with the fact that the percentage of FIV in feral cats can be as high as 10%, would you use your funds to retrap and test the other cats or would you watch the colony for any newcomers who were "unfixed" as well as for any cats that shows signs of being sick and test as appropriate?? If it were me, I'd choose to do the second and use my funds for spaying/neutering of new cats and then test if I see a cat that seems to be sick.
Somehow this topic got into whether testing should or shouldn't be done at all...and I would like to return to Pamela's question as I think it is a good one.
Katie
Here is my question to everyone. IF you found 1 cat in a colony of fixed ferals that tested positive for FIV...would you then test all the other ferals (given the cost and the fact that new ferals will most likely come along that need fixing). Even with the fact that the percentage of FIV in feral cats can be as high as 10%, would you use your funds to retrap and test the other cats or would you watch the colony for any newcomers who were "unfixed" as well as for any cats that shows signs of being sick and test as appropriate?? If it were me, I'd choose to do the second and use my funds for spaying/neutering of new cats and then test if I see a cat that seems to be sick.
Somehow this topic got into whether testing should or shouldn't be done at all...and I would like to return to Pamela's question as I think it is a good one.
Katie
Thanks, MA.
Would I re-trap and test every cat in the colony? No, but I would test any new kittens and cats when they get spayed/neutered, and I would definitely keep an eye out for any sick cats and get them trapped ASAP (since we know that cats will attack/be attacked when they are sick as part of the natural cat world). However, I wouldn't just ignore the fact that it is there and the possibility that it could spread. Nationally the infection rate of ferals may be 1-2% total, or as high as 10%, but I wouldn't risk losing half of the colony, or more, by having a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy either.
As for what shelters do, I think it is relevant to discuss what people/organizations in different situations do with FIV+ cats. Most areas in this country don't have an Ally Cat Allies to support feral cats & caretakers, and many, many ferals do end up in shelters. That's fact. Some of those shelters try very hard to socialize and adopt out the ferals that are brought to them, changing the long-standing stance of euthanizing them almost immediately as "unadoptable". FIV can also be transmitted in-utero, so it's not just about adult ferals that end up in shelters, but also the feral kittens that are trapped and socialized and adopted out.
Just as a point to bring up, when the human equivalent of this feline disease came to light (HIV), there were two opposite schools of thought. One was utter paranoia that it could be spread through casual contact, toilet seats, and yes even cats. People were hysterical about it. I see this as the "test everything in sight and euthanize all FIV+ cats in all circumstances" thought in this discussion. On the other side of the coin were those who thought, well, it's only gays and intravenious drug users who will get AIDS, so I can go about life as usual. I see that as the "Don't test, let them be" thought here. We all know, through much learning about HIV and AIDS that both of these ideas were false. I expect much the same to happen in the coming years dealing with FIV. There is so much that is not known about the disease yet.
As for what shelters do, I think it is relevant to discuss what people/organizations in different situations do with FIV+ cats. Most areas in this country don't have an Ally Cat Allies to support feral cats & caretakers, and many, many ferals do end up in shelters. That's fact. Some of those shelters try very hard to socialize and adopt out the ferals that are brought to them, changing the long-standing stance of euthanizing them almost immediately as "unadoptable". FIV can also be transmitted in-utero, so it's not just about adult ferals that end up in shelters, but also the feral kittens that are trapped and socialized and adopted out.
Just as a point to bring up, when the human equivalent of this feline disease came to light (HIV), there were two opposite schools of thought. One was utter paranoia that it could be spread through casual contact, toilet seats, and yes even cats. People were hysterical about it. I see this as the "test everything in sight and euthanize all FIV+ cats in all circumstances" thought in this discussion. On the other side of the coin were those who thought, well, it's only gays and intravenious drug users who will get AIDS, so I can go about life as usual. I see that as the "Don't test, let them be" thought here. We all know, through much learning about HIV and AIDS that both of these ideas were false. I expect much the same to happen in the coming years dealing with FIV. There is so much that is not known about the disease yet.
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You said it best Heidi- the jury is still out on this issue.
Pamela, I am sorry to have hijacked your thread. I hope you are feeling easier about the decision made.
Pamela, I am sorry to have hijacked your thread. I hope you are feeling easier about the decision made.
originally posted by valanhb:
And Pamela, I agree with MA. I sure hope all the discussion has helped ease your heart and your conscience. There are no clear cut rules, rights or wrongs here. As to what to do about the rest of the colony? I think Heidi has come up with very sensible advice on how to handle things going forward. The problem remains about what to do about those adults that test positive - and unfortunately, I really don't know what I'd do. There are no sanctuaries around here for FeLV or FIV animals - and I just hope and pray I never have to face these decisions. No matter what, how, or when it happens, it is gut-wrenching.
Sending more hugs,
Laurie
Heidi - I think you've made a REALLY important point, and I expect you're right. It sure speaks to the point that there IS no "right" and "wrong" here.
And Pamela, I agree with MA. I sure hope all the discussion has helped ease your heart and your conscience. There are no clear cut rules, rights or wrongs here. As to what to do about the rest of the colony? I think Heidi has come up with very sensible advice on how to handle things going forward. The problem remains about what to do about those adults that test positive - and unfortunately, I really don't know what I'd do. There are no sanctuaries around here for FeLV or FIV animals - and I just hope and pray I never have to face these decisions. No matter what, how, or when it happens, it is gut-wrenching.
Sending more hugs,
Laurie
Certainly there is a lot of "grey" area with regards to this discussion. Every person will make a choice they believe is right for them...I do not agree that the choice to "not test" is a bad choice. If testing costs are prohibitive...I would rather spay/neuter. I recognize that everyone will have different views...I'm sure as we get closer to a day when there are not soo many cats (both domesticated and feral) the answers with regards to how best to address diseases like FIV will get more focus.
If the choice is...euthanize some for the greater good of others or euthanize them all...the choice is pretty easy to make. However, I do not want those who cannot afford testing or only do spay/neuter as they can afford it to feel that their choice is wrong. Just because there is a CHANCE of FIV..doesn't mean that every feral will have it...just like every drug user didn't have AIDS. The focus for right now for many individuals is to spay/neuter...FIV testing may or may not be available. I am just happy to belong to a forum where viewpoints can be expressed. Obviously we are a long way from winning the war...but we have done tremendously in the battles!
Much Love and Respect.
Katie
If the choice is...euthanize some for the greater good of others or euthanize them all...the choice is pretty easy to make. However, I do not want those who cannot afford testing or only do spay/neuter as they can afford it to feel that their choice is wrong. Just because there is a CHANCE of FIV..doesn't mean that every feral will have it...just like every drug user didn't have AIDS. The focus for right now for many individuals is to spay/neuter...FIV testing may or may not be available. I am just happy to belong to a forum where viewpoints can be expressed. Obviously we are a long way from winning the war...but we have done tremendously in the battles!
Much Love and Respect.
Katie
Pamela,
I am sorry for taking so long to jump into this discussion. The whole FIV and FeLV topic is pretty painful for me.
I don't think you were here when I found out that one of my very sweet ferals was diagnosed with FeLV. I was in the process of putting him up for adoption when I found out and it broke my heart. Up until I was able to find a sanctuary that would take him, I cried constantly because I was faced with the thought of having him put to sleep. It absolutely broke my heart to think of him dying, but the thought of the remainder of my colony catching leukemia from him was equally devistating.
I was lucky because in the end I did not have to make that decision. Thankfully, he found a home in a sanctuary for special needs cats.
But...right now I am facing the chance that there might be FIV in my colony. Caruso, one of my ferals who was adopted last year, tested positive for FIV back before Christmas. He is a big, fat, lover boy who has no physical symptoms. My guess is that he has had it since birth since he is not a fighter. BUT, if he did get it in an attack, chances are that others in my colony have been in contact with whoever gave it to Caruso. And, my little hellion, Nathan, does still get into the occasional territorial battle despite having been neutered, so I am sure he is at great risk.
I don't know what I would do if Nathan (or my other ferals) tested positive for FIV. I think it would be wrong to risk the health of other cats by leaving him in the colony yet I also think it would be wrong to take his life because there is such a small chance of him transmitting it to another cat. I still haven't worked this out in my own mind -- in part because the implications on both sides of the argument are simply too painful for me.
My heart goes out to you.
I am sorry for taking so long to jump into this discussion. The whole FIV and FeLV topic is pretty painful for me.
I don't think you were here when I found out that one of my very sweet ferals was diagnosed with FeLV. I was in the process of putting him up for adoption when I found out and it broke my heart. Up until I was able to find a sanctuary that would take him, I cried constantly because I was faced with the thought of having him put to sleep. It absolutely broke my heart to think of him dying, but the thought of the remainder of my colony catching leukemia from him was equally devistating.
I was lucky because in the end I did not have to make that decision. Thankfully, he found a home in a sanctuary for special needs cats.
But...right now I am facing the chance that there might be FIV in my colony. Caruso, one of my ferals who was adopted last year, tested positive for FIV back before Christmas. He is a big, fat, lover boy who has no physical symptoms. My guess is that he has had it since birth since he is not a fighter. BUT, if he did get it in an attack, chances are that others in my colony have been in contact with whoever gave it to Caruso. And, my little hellion, Nathan, does still get into the occasional territorial battle despite having been neutered, so I am sure he is at great risk.
I don't know what I would do if Nathan (or my other ferals) tested positive for FIV. I think it would be wrong to risk the health of other cats by leaving him in the colony yet I also think it would be wrong to take his life because there is such a small chance of him transmitting it to another cat. I still haven't worked this out in my own mind -- in part because the implications on both sides of the argument are simply too painful for me.
My heart goes out to you.
Hi Katie, and All,
And, I'm concerned too, that Pamela feels okay with her role in this whole question. Pamela, we each do what we can do, given as much as we know at that point in time. You did your very best for Giles. At the time, you may not have known all the complexities of disease prevalence, clinic policies, etc., etc. You did what you thought was right.
Don't take all the blame on your own shoulders, AND, don't ever think that Giles, or any cat you've helped, would blame you! I am sure what counted -- still counts -- for Giles, is that you cared enough to do things to help him.
We are all learning, as long as we are here!
Best,
Linda
And, I'm concerned too, that Pamela feels okay with her role in this whole question. Pamela, we each do what we can do, given as much as we know at that point in time. You did your very best for Giles. At the time, you may not have known all the complexities of disease prevalence, clinic policies, etc., etc. You did what you thought was right.
Don't take all the blame on your own shoulders, AND, don't ever think that Giles, or any cat you've helped, would blame you! I am sure what counted -- still counts -- for Giles, is that you cared enough to do things to help him.
We are all learning, as long as we are here!
Best,
Linda
I had a gut-wrenching episode with FeLV in my colony last summer and my heart goes out to you through this ordeal. There are no right and wrong answers. And opinions, as you can see by this thread vary so greatly by not only members in here, but by vets, veterinary colleges, national groups, and individual rescue groups. I made false starts, then stepped back and researched the situation before I made additional decisions. The hardest choices are always between "individual cat versus cat nation".
You did what you had to do, and although you are devastated by what happened, use this knowledge to your advantage in the future. There are so many out there like Giles waiting for your loving care, in whatever form that comes in.
((((*hugs*)))) Pamela
You did what you had to do, and although you are devastated by what happened, use this knowledge to your advantage in the future. There are so many out there like Giles waiting for your loving care, in whatever form that comes in.
((((*hugs*)))) Pamela
I'm also in the same situation as you were. I have this beautiful cat (feral) coming to my house now for about a year. I've been feeding him/her and made a shelter under my deck. Well, the last weeek when I saw her it looked as if her skin on her leg was ripped off and I could clearly see her bone at least 3 inches long. I tried to catch her in a blanket but she slipped out. My heart is breaking for her and I know she needs help desperately. Her leg is getting worse and her foot seems to be shrinking. I think her leg is dying because of no blood or oxygen. I'm going out of my mind and don't know how to trap her. I might buy a cat carrier this weekend and see if I can get her in it. But, I also am afraid when I bring her to the vet he will put her down. I know that would be the humane thing to do but my heart is breaking because she is a young cat and I love her so much. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
Hi Diana, this thread is nearly 10 years old - it was started in 2004.
Please start a new thread and I'm sure there will be some people who can help you with your situation. Lots of them have experience in dealing with ferals.
Please start a new thread and I'm sure there will be some people who can help you with your situation. Lots of them have experience in dealing with ferals.
