Inexperienced and lack of support from local rescues - Please help.

[moxiewild]

Yes, she has been very vigilant in our back and forth through email! I am waiting for a call from her tonight to discuss things further.

Ondine, do you have any suggestions about my post on DC? I really, really want to spend time with him in there to help socialize him (and because we've grown to quite like him!) but we absolutely have to clean up the floor.. I almost decided to chance it with the hand vacuum today as I got to thinking about it and was like... well, if this is how messy he is, then this isn't going to be just a one time thing. This is going to be AT LEAST a once or twice a week thing (if he wasn't semi-feral, at least daily like the other cats), so maybe he needs to get used to it and after the first few times he'll learn that it's not so bad and scary (and nor am I!)? Is there a chance he may attack or charge me/the hand vac out of fear?

 

[red top rescue]

According to The Weather Channel this morning, you are in for some more rain. 

 

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/san-antonio-tx/weather-radar

Regarding DC, why not cleanup in the old fashioned way, with a quiet broom, brush and dustpan?  I wouldnt suggest using a hand vac in there.  It doesn't have to be all that clean, and it could really scare him.  Heck, it scares my TAME cats because I sweep a lot more than I vac, so if the vac comes out, they go running.

 

[Norachan]

Some good news! I'm glad to hear you've found someone who might be able to help you.

About DC; Could you clean up the cat litter with a dustpan and brush? Not as effective as a vacuum cleaner but less likely to scare him. I would definitely do anything you can to get him more socialised. A wand toy is a great idea.

When I was trying to get my feral kittens socialised I would sit on the floor with my legs out-stretched and a blanket covering them. The kittens don't realise that your legs are under the blanket. Once they get engrossed in the game they start running over the top of you and using your legs as hiding places to ambush the toy from. OK, I realise DC is older and not as likely to be fooled as kittens, but over time he might feel comfortable being that close to you. It's the first step in getting cats used to sitting on your lap.

About the fleas. How about something like this for his room?


I have a flea and tick repellent that is herbal jelly block inside of a plastic holder. The jelly gradually breaks down and releases a smell fleas and ticks don't like. It's quite a pleasant lemony smell. I have one under my bed and a couple more near all the places the cats like to sleep.

I can't find anything similar on Amazon, in Japan they're sold in pharmacies and gardening centers.

 

[moxiewild]

Yes, we had nearly a week where thunderstorms were predicted every day but never happened, even when there was a 100% chance - something about a "cap" overhead that was preventing it from falling. The cap did finally break a few days ago, though.

Luckily the new kennel location and cover are working great for Hobo and Puff, but they are still choosing to hide in between the pallets :/ Also not eating very much, so I delivered some Fortiflora, baby food, and mackerel to my friend today to use as toppers to try and entice them to eat.

We did take a dust pan in there. We can get actual piles up, but it's still just an entire layer of litter scatter/tracking coating the entire carpet :/ It's just everywhere

I suppose I will just keep sweeping as much as I can. We need to get on top of this flea problem soon, and I think my plan for that will allow me a chance to vacuum. In the mean time I will look for flea traps and such like Norachan mentioned. My vet also mentioned Capstar and Program. I've heard of both, but don't know too much about them and their safety. What are the options for ferals when it comes to fleas?

This next week I'm going to try to spend as much time with DC as possible. My goal is to have him eating in front of me and in his carrier. If I can accomplish that, I should be able to trap him that way and take him to the vet for flea treatment and an FIV/FeLV test. Then maybe once a week do the same thing really quick just to take him out of the room to vacuum the litter. That way he won't associate being in the carrier with going to the vet, either, since this will probably be what I have to do on a monthly basis until I am able to apply it myself.

Thing is, I haven't been able to get him to eat in front of me since that one time. :/

I wish I was able to read or talk to him in there, but he really does appear more stressed when I do judging by his vocalizations. So I suppose I'll just sit in there, and work my way up to the wand toy. What can I expect from that and how should I go about it as not to scare him?

Any any ideas for getting him to eat in front of me, or is that something that will naturally come about from the other socialization efforts? What if he refuses to eat while I'm in the room? How long do I give it before I leave so that he can eat?
 

 

[ondine]

He's naturally unsure of anything, so spending up to fifteen minutes, frequently, with him is good.  Talk softly to him, read out loud to him, just everyday stuff.

Any moves you make should be slow and deliberate.  As far as he knows, there are monsters every where, so anything you do to calm him down and reassure him is what he needs.

I wouldn't stay so long that the food dries out - maybe shorten your visit when you feed him and come in later to socialize.

 

[moxiewild]

He seems to be somewhat coming around. There are some micro gains - as I stated earlier, now when I knock and crack the door, he doesn't immediately run to hide. He will stand there and stare meowing at me and will only go to hide when I actually enter the room. But the past three days he is no longer running to hide - he is walking to hide! Just a casual stroll, and it seems so insignificant but my boyfriend and I were both excited to tell each other about it when we noticed this separately.

I also noticed he is coming out more, having recently caught him sleeping on a chair in there (vs under a table) a few times. He must be doing so quite a bit because hair has rapidly been accumulating on it.  I take this as a good sign, like he's starting to view more things as actual territory.

I'm just not sure about the reading to him... he really does seem more stressed in that he feels the need to vocalize whenever I speak. Once I stop, he vocalizes a bit more and then finally calms down, stops intently watching me, and starts squinting and such. I wish I knew what his vocalizations meant in this case :/

As far as a toy, I have Jackson Galaxy's version of Da Bird that is unopened, so no other cat smells on it. Could I try using this? How should  I introduce it as to not scare him? Slowly drag it on the floor?
 

Any opinions on the Capstar or Program? Or any other flea treatment/deterrent I could use for DC?

 

[moxiewild]

TNR Update/Question:

Since I am entirely new to this.. Can I TNR while it is raining? Is it worth trying? I will not leave the traps unattended, but I am just not sure how willing they will be to come out in the weather. I'm not talking about doing it during a storm, but it's pretty much on and off rain and drizzling, frequent thundering and constant overcast. How much will weather like this deter them?

I will of course do everything I can to set the traps during a period of no rain, but it's not always easy to predict when the lighter rains come. And some of those dry periods are quite obviously an hour or so before a big storm, which cats will obviously be even more keen to.
 

 

[Willowy]

Capstar is great for ferals, although it only lasts for 24 hours. Just crush up a small one or 1/8 of a large one (if feeding a group, one large Capstar will treat 8 cats), and mix it in with his food. It doesn't seem to have an objectionable taste. I don't know why I didn't think to recommend that to you earlier :/.

 

[moxiewild]

I assume the larger one is probably more economical, but is it safe to split it? I always worry that the mixture is not evenly distributed throughout the pill.

Do you think I could get away with giving DC Capstar only every 2-3 days until we're able to treat him? The other three are almost due for their treatment but just in case I would like to give them Capstar in the day or so before treating. It's a bit more expensive than I anticipated, so if I can get away with every other day or so with DC, that will help.

I did finally get him to eat in front of me tonight! I just refused to leave when he was yelling at me. Sometimes he also dashes out from under the table in a frenzy. It's almost like he has the kitty crazies, but I don't know why he does it. He runs out quickly while looking at me and will go all the way around the room frantically only to go back under his table where he started. I just sat there while he did it and didn't say anything to him and didn't move. Eventually he ate.

Hopefully after a few more times of eating in front of me I can proceed to moving his bowl closer and closer to the carrier.

Oh, by the way - should I be concerned about worms for these guys now?

 

[Willowy]

I think the drug must be evenly distributed throughout the pill, as I've never had a split dose not work. And it's safe if they accidentally get too much. And, yeah, it's a lot cheaper to split the big pills because a pack of large pills only costs a couple dollars more than the pack of small pills. The generics/off brands work just fine too. Amazon has decent prices and selection.

Every 3-4 days should be fine. . .you could maybe even go with once a week after the first few times. It kills any flea that bites the cat in a 24-hour period, and most fleas feed at least once a day, so it's really effective at killing the majority of fleas the first time. The only way for there to be more fleas is for eggs to hatch or for more fleas to hitch a ride indoors.

I would try to get some de-wormer into them. I do it every now and then just in case.

 

[red top rescue]

Capstar is great for ferals, although it only lasts for 24 hours. Just crush up a small one or 1/8 of a large one (if feeding a group, one large Capstar will treat 8 cats), and mix it in with his food. It doesn't seem to have an objectionable taste. I don't know why I didn't think to recommend that to you earlier :/.

You can also get generic Capstar and Program.  Amazon and eBay have caved to big Pharma and no longer allow all the little sellers to sell it, but a few have made a business out of it and are still able to sell it probably because of their profession style packaging.  Just search for "generic capstar" or "nitenpyram" either in Google or on Bay.  Once connected to a seller, you can probably order privately in the future.  As for defleaing the space, I have always suggested using food grade DIOTOMACEOUS EARTH (DE) which you can get at Tractor Supply or other feed stores.  It's a dust, looks like dirt, and it works in DRY areas (not out in the rain) and wipes out any insect with an exoskeleton by getting between the scales and dehydrating them.  It has no smell, and you can use it on anything because it isnt poisonous.   Search this site for many threads mentioning it.

 

[Norachan]

I did finally get him to eat in front of me tonight! I just refused to leave when he was yelling at me. Sometimes he also dashes out from under the table in a frenzy. It's almost like he has the kitty crazies, but I don't know why he does it. He runs out quickly while looking at me and will go all the way around the room frantically only to go back under his table where he started. I just sat there while he did it and didn't say anything to him and didn't move. Eventually he ate.

Hopefully after a few more times of eating in front of me I can proceed to moving his bowl closer and closer to the carrier.

That's good progress. It might not seem like it, but him yelling at you is actually a good sign. True feral cats don't vocalise in front of people at all. They don't realise there is any point to it. He's yelling at you now to let you know he wants you to back off while he eats, which means he thinks you can understand him. Soon he'll be yelling at you when he wants more food.

You did the right thing by staying there. Just look away from him in an unconcerned manner while he's dashing round the room. Once he's started to eat give him a slow eye blink and then look away again.

 

[kittychick]

I think it's all moving in a GREAT direction! It does seem counterintuitive that him "yelling" is actually a great sign - -but it is. He feels willing to try to communicate with you like he hears you communicate! So it's a great bridge!

 

[red top rescue]

There is a feral who eats on my porch now, and a couple of months ago he would run if he even saw me outside.  Now I can put his food down within inches of his face and he doesn't run.  But that took time.  My other cats are leery of him because in the past if they would come too close to him when he was eating, he would charge them.  We have since rearranged the eating place so it is up high and they can pass below without fear.  However, from time to time when he is NOT eating and is not on his perch, one of the others will want to come in and try to tiptoe past him, slowly, on very short legs........and if they get too close, he will vocalize (he no longer charges them) and they will stop moving and stay very still or back off.  This leads me to think your guy may be telling you "STOP, tthat's close enough!   You're making me nervous."  Why don't you try to respond like a cat does, just STOP, stay still for a moment, and then either back off or move forward again but very, very slowly.  Let us know if this works.

 

[moxiewild]

So quick questions -

I have been thoroughly brushing our male foster (Beau) every other day searching for fleas since his room is right across from DC's room, which is also the room Hobo and Puff stayed in for a week the first time they were here. Figuring the fleas came from the ferals, it seemed as though of all the cats, Beau would be the one to have fleas - Beau and DC's rooms are on the opposite side of the house as our female foster (Hazel), and our resident kitty (Jack) spends most of his time in my boyfriend's room upstairs and they are both fairly infested right now. I have been checking Beau for fleas the most out of all of them due to his close proximity to the ferals and have not even found any flea dirt.

Then this morning I went to feed him, and checked his butt (this cat always has a dirty butt :| ) and lo and behold, disgusting little worms coming out of him.

So I am trying to find out what kind of worms they are. I would assume tapeworm, but it's hard to tell.. with how I am able to see them right now. They are small, white, and moving, but I can't tell if they are hooked or rounded, or if they have segments. Are the segments easy to see with the naked eye?

I called the vet, but only spoke to the receptionist. I had said I thought it was tapeworm, but now I'm wondering if that's correct or if I was just assuming due to the fleas. We use chicken feed as litter which is about "sesame seed size" so it's difficult to discern litter from potential worm segments when I'm scooping their boxes.

Also, if one cat has been confirmed to have worms, should we go ahead and treat the others? The vet did not suggest that and wants us to wait for evidence of worms first in each individual cat (but again, I think I would have difficulty identifying segments when cleaning the boxes). Should I feed them all some DE just in case? Does that actually work? I thought DE had to be dry in order for it to work, so I don't understand how it would work in the stomach, but I have seen it a lot on the forums.

We do want to avoid the cost of sending in stool samples for the time being, unfortunately. We had to take Hazel in yesterday for testing and she has a UTI ($300 appointment) and then this afternoon we are taking Jack to an oral surgeon for a consultation and if everything goes as planned he will have a tooth extraction this next week - and because he is high risk due to age and CKD, he will have to stay in the hospital for at least 24 hours. We also bought a bunch of Capstar, Revolution, and some Program and a bunch of flea traps, so we are really pushing our budget as is. :/

Of course, we also don't want our kitties to suffer!

Lastly, is there anything in particular we need to do to protect ourselves from whatever worms these may be? Will frequent hand washing suffice? Do I need to dump and scrub everyone's litter boxes and do so more frequently than normal over the next month or so?

Final thoughts - OMG worms are sooooo gross!!! EW EW EWWWW!

 

[ondine]

There is a relationship between these worms (we call them butt worms) and fleas.

One of our other members (sorry, I've forgotten who!) recently posted this info:

The flea is an intermediate host for cat (and dog) tapeworm.  The adult form of the tapeworm lives in the small intestines of dogs and cats. The worm is made up of multiple segments and the segments, which are full of eggs, are passed in the feces. While warm and damp, the segments are active, but as they dry up, usually on your cat's hairs around his or her bottom, they break open and liberate the tapeworm eggs inside.

A flea larva  ingests the eggs as part of its healthy diet and the egg develops into an immature form of tapeworm in the flea and stays there. When a dog or cat eats the flea that ate the tapeworm egg (usually while grooming itself), the immature form of the tapeworm is released from the flea and sets up housekeeping in the animal's intestine and the life cycle starts all over again.  Without the flea, this type of tapeworm could not be passed directly from cat to cat or dog to dog. It must  live the earliest part of its life as a larva in the flea.

I would clean the boxes thoroughly, replace all the litter and keep up the flea treatments.

 

[red top rescue]

Tapeworms are different, they don't have eggs that show up in stool samples.  Also, you can get the medicine for tapeworms over the counter at most pet stores like Petco and PetSmart.  The medicine is called praziquantel, and the packages have tablets inside and directions about how much to use for each cat. 

I just went searching for it and to my dismay, the ProLabs tapeworm tablets have been discontinued, according to Allivet Supply, so all that is available is Droncit and Drontal .  However, it looks like Tractor Supply and Amazon still carry them.

 

[moxiewild]

@Ondine, I've been calling them butt worms, too! I initially had that in my post but deleted it later

I keep having doubts that these are tapes - mainly because in just the past week or so Beau's appetite has noticeably decreased. He just hasn't been interested in food and this morning I purposefully fed him several hours late and he hardly ate any of it! He even refused a sardine and some mackerel the other day - though, to be fair, this was the first time I ever offered him that, so I suppose it's possible he actually doesn't like these, but it seems odd that he wouldn't like either.

I also still have not found any flea dirt/fleas/bites on him and the flea trap in his room has not caught anything in 3 days while the others have.

On the other hand, I do recall several times in the past month or so that I have noticed pieces of something on his scrotum - given the size and light color I assumed the litter/chicken feed was some how getting stuck to him. Of course, now it seems likely that these were probably tapeworm segments - the timing is just too much of a coincidence.

I suppose I also need to consider that his appetite might be caused by something entirely different, so I will just continue to monitor him.

I wasn't aware that drontal could be purchased OTC (that's what the vet sent us home with). I will look into the TradeWinds tablets, thank you @Red Top Rescue.

Should I wait for signs with the other cats before treating them? And should I go ahead and scrub and change their littler more often as well (even though all four are completely separated)?

If the flea/worm issues persist I'll go ahead and start another thread in Health with my questions.

HOWEVER, all of this has lead to a question relevant to this forum - Do you guys take any precautionary measures for fleas and what not whenever you TNR? Granted, I have had these cats in my home much longer than would be normal, but is it at all common for ferals you TNR to bring home fleas to your pets when they stay the normal 1-3 days with you?
 

 

[ondine]

I always used Revolution on the outside guys, so I was relatively confident they would not bring fleas in with them.  So far, so good, although I hesitate to say that out loud for fear of jinxing it!

I've read that just vacuuming kills them, too, so I am pretty scrupulous about that.

I'd keep a check on him and see the vet if his appetite doesn't improve.

 

[moxiewild]

Yeah, I use Revolution on our tame guys, but I can't touch DC just yet (though I think I'll be there very soon!). And I was more so concerned with other ferals not in my care that I may TNR in the future - like the cats at my friends house and the colony of 7 at the retirement community.

Is there anything more affordable than the TradeWinds tabs? I am wondering if DC's ravenous appetite could be due to tapeworm? I initially thought it was food insecurity, but it's been over a month with a plentiful food source and he still scarfs everything down I throw his way (I might even be overfeeding him, but he acts soooo hungry!).

I also wonder if Puff could have worms - I see people describing their ferals as looking "wormy" and while I'm not sure if it's a "pot belly" he certainly has a barrel shape that he didn't used to have..

It's difficult to capture on film without being able to stand directly over him, but I found these photos from the old house where you can somewhat see the way his sides protrude.

Puff is the tuxedo kitty.

(This picture makes it look like that's his underbelly, but it's not - it's his side)

Puffbelly1.jpg

• moxiewild
• Jun 13, 2016

Puffbelly2.jpg

• moxiewild
• Jun 13, 2016

Side View:

Puffbelly.jpg

• moxiewild
• Jun 13, 2016

I thought perhaps he was just overweight, but I asked the vet and she felt he was at a healthy weight (10 lbs). I didn't think to ask about worms at the time and he stayed at the clinic overnight and no one ever mentioned anything about worms.

Basically, I am thinking about providing Hobo and Puff's primary caretaker some Program and Capstar (generic of each) from now on and wondering if I can affordably deworm them (and my kitties) as well. I've read that some people give their ferals a dewormer every few months as a precautionary measure (meaning without knowing for certain worms are present and just assuming due to feral life). Is that safe or recommended?

I've read mixed responses on some TCS threads about OTC dewormers, either an absolute "No, they are unsafe" or a casual mention of a certain brand (sometimes by members whose opinions I generally trust).

These are two of the websites I found that appear to sell the generic version of Drontal (or Droncit?), the first of which is the website I ordered the generic Program from.

http://www.theguardianpets.com/store/p73/Guardian_Prazipro_-_23mg_for_Cats.html

http://www.healthyhomepets.com/for-pets-4-legs/tapeworm-killer-praziquantel/dogs-cats-6-11-lb/

I'm not sure if these treat just tapeworms or if they are broad spectrum, but I sent emails to each  company inquiring. My three tame kitties would only need something for tapeworm since they are treated with Revolution and only go outside on leashes, but DC, Hobo, and Puff might need something that also covers roundworm, hookworm, ect...

Any thoughts? I'm still very new to all of this and definitely would like to provide more care for these guys after everything they've been through to hopefully keep them alive and healthy for as long as we can

In closing, I'd like to add a photo of Hobo, because, well... look at him!

Hobokitty.jpg

• moxiewild
• Jun 13, 2016