I'm wondering about replies here towards dry food

[ldg]

Originally Posted by mrblanche

To put it entirely in the anecdotal arena, none of my cats has ever had a tooth problem, and they have all eaten primarily dry food.

But that's also a function of genetics. Lazlo, Spooky, Tuxedo, and Sheldon are all siblings. We think Spooky and Julius (adopted by someone else) had a different father than Laz, Tux, and Shel (the orange in their coloring and their shape and size). We free-fed only dry food for the first... 4/5 years of their life. We tried to feed them wet food, but they hated it. We kept trying, and eventually got them to eat one meal of wet food a day. (Now they're on all wet, except Tuxedo who wouldn't switch - but we went all wet for most of them in November).

By the age of 2, Spooky (who lived outside for almost the first year of her life) needed her first tooth removed. She's had four removed, and has to have a dental to remove plaque every six months. We brush her teeth since she was two (and had to have that 1st tooth removed); we add hydrogen peroxide to their water.

 

[furryfriends50]

Originally Posted by Carolina

Oh, I am sure there is...
Another thing I don't quite understand about the way people "raw" feed their cats and say it is imitating what they eat in the wild, and that it is balanced:
In the wild, when a cat kills its prey, usually the first thing it will eat is the stomach, which will consist of enzymes, partially digested grains (or naturally "cooked" if you will), greens, roots, vegetables... and whatever that animal has eaten. So, the true natural raw diet should consist of meat, cooked grains, and vegetables.
I do not see raw feeders feeding grains, and see them feeding very little vegetables. This is not what a cat in the wild will eat IMO.

Cats are carnivore's...dogs are carnivores...ferret's are carnivores. Look up the definition of a carnivore if you want to know what they are...

When my cats eat mice, rats, birds, or rabbits that they catch they leave the stomach. For the bigger animals they catch, they do the same thing as wolves, take the stomach/intestines, shake/squeeze out the plant matter, and then eat it the organs, minus the plant junk.

David Mech is considered to be the world's leading wolf biologist, and this book is a compilation of 350 collective years of research, experiments, and careful field observations.
In his book (which he wrote in 2003) “Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation†you can find the following lines about wolves and vegetable matters.
These quotes are taken from chapter 4, “The Wolf as a Carnivore.â€

“Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill siteâ€

“To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive systemâ€

“The wolf's diet consists mostly of muscle meat and fatty tissue from various animals. Heart, lung, liver, and other internal organs are eaten. Bones are crushed to get at the marrow, and bone fragments are eaten as well. Even hair and skin are sometimes consumed. The only part consistently ignored is the stomach and its contents. Although some vegetable matter is taken separately, particularly berries, Canis lupus doesn't seem to digest them very wellâ€

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by furryfriends50

Cats are carnivore's...dogs are carnivores...ferret's are carnivores. Look up the definition of a carnivore if you want to know what they are...

There are different types of carnivores. Dogs for example are facultative carnivores, which means they can eat anything as long as their primary food source is animal derived.

So you have obligate carnivores (just meat), faculative carnivores (mostly meat), omnivores (ratio can vary broadly), faculative herbivores (mostly plant), and obligate herbivores (just plant). Even then, you have to be careful not to think of things in black and white, since with modern nutritional understanding we can manipulate plant recipes to somewhat mimic meat for example. Obligate herbivores such as cows/waterbuffalo have been seen eating limited quantities of animal protein as a minor supplement, and even obligate carnivores can be seen munching on a few plants. Furthermore a chihuahua and domestic shorthair are obviously somewhat removed from their wild ancestors.

 

[followedbydolls]

There are so many methods to feeding cats.. i really don't think there is any 'one right way'

Looking at the indvidual cat and seeing how it responds to the diet is how to know if it's working. My youngest house cat barely eats wet of any quality, so a dry food option is a must for him regardless of what the opinion is on it.

I've always been a combo(wet & dry) free choice feeder, it's what works for my cats and me so that is what i do.

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by mrblanche

To put it entirely in the anecdotal arena, none of my cats has ever had a tooth problem, and they have all eaten primarily dry food.

As Laurie pointed out, genetics can play a big role in your very positive experience. Siamese cats are often more prone to plaque from what I have read. Bijou and Mika are both OK so hopefully the wet food diet is doing the job.

Originally Posted by followedbydolls

There are so many methods to feeding cats.. i really don't think there is any 'one right way'

Looking at the indvidual cat and seeing how it responds to the diet is how to know if it's working. My youngest house cat barely eats wet of any quality, so a dry food option is a must for him regardless of what the opinion is on it.

I've always been a combo(wet & dry) free choice feeder, it's what works for my cats and me so that is what i do.

Agreed! As I said earlier, the best diet for your cat is what they will eat. We've had some members whose kitties wouldn't eat anything but Fancy Feast which is probably one of the worst quality foods but it's better than them not eating at all.

 

[otto]

Genetics have to be considered of course, what works for one cat may make another do poorly but.......

People who feed an all dry diet may think their cats are doing "just fine". I challenge those people to switch to a canned or mostly canned diet, with kibble being used as snacks/treats only. You will be astounded at the difference.

And the quality matters, too. I thought Jennie was doing fantastic on Wellness grain free canned food. Thick glossy coat, bright eyes. I have switched her to 75% Merrick Before Grain cat food and 25 % Wellness. Same price as Wellness (or even less if you catch a good sale).

On the Before Grain, her coat is even thicker and even glossier, her eyes are even brighter, and her energy level has doubled.

The right food can make a difference.

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by LDG

I haven't taken the time to look at the math, and I am good at that. But I do know that one cat (at least one of mine) doesn't eat 1.25 cups of wet food a day (on an all wet diet), so they can't possibly need 1.25 cups of water.

1.25 cups of water does not equal the moisture in 1.25 cups of wet food. Not only that, but when you eat something that is dry (human example: popcorn, cat example: kibble) you have to drink more than if you didn't eat it.

Originally Posted by Plebayo

Question for those who keep referencing the cat's digestive system. Cats have been domesticated for what... 9,000 years+? For the truly 'domestic' cat who is a mutt, that has been coming from generations and generations of kibble eating cats, are their digestive systems really set up the way they used to be, before cats started eating kibble?

This is actually a question that comes up a lot. I'm not anti raw food or anything. But it is a question I've always wondered. Our cats and our dogs are not wild, they live in houses, they don't roam [or for those who do, they don't roam like wild animals do]. I'm not saying that kibble was a good invention or anything but for the generations of animals being fed and raised on kibble can we really say their digestive systems are the same as they used to be?

I'm also not trying to take this off topic, but the argument for wet food [which I am a wet feeder btw] seems to be based off of what a cat would eat in the wild - even though our cats no longer live in the wild.

Like it was said before, kibble has only been around less than 100 years. The rest of the time, the cats were eating fresh meat only, the equivalent to a 'wild diet.'

Originally Posted by strange_wings

So whole wheat is always good for all people and so is a low salt diet because someone said so online? Both can put me in the hospital.

How many people do you think vetted their cats during the Depression? Have you even seen the "medications" used before then?

The thing is so many of you raw feeders push it as the only way to feed a cat and it's simply not feasible for everyone to do this. I can't be the only one that feels like we're being attacked for feeding wet and a little dry.
It's not a matter of convenience, either. Not everyone has sources for the meat and a spare freezer for it. Of course there's grocery store/walmart quality meat full of chemicals... Yet others couldn't do it right and would cause major nutritional deficiencies.

But please do continue to tell all the rest of us how much we're mistreating our cats and abusing them. Maybe you'll convince some people who rescue and foster to stop since they're just abusing cats.

Most of the people here are not pushing raw diets at all, and if they even mention it, it's only to say that it works great for them. I think you are a bit biased against raw...

 

[ldg]

Originally Posted by Minka

1.25 cups of water does not equal the moisture in 1.25 cups of wet food. Not only that, but when you eat something that is dry (human example: popcorn, cat example: kibble) you have to drink more than if you didn't eat it.

I know. I was responding to furryfriends50 claim and caculation that cats needed to drink 1.25 cups of water a day. I was merely pointing out that the obvious - a cat on an all wet diet gets enough water, and the volume of wet food isn't even 1.25 cups, so the claim/math that a cat requires 1.25 cups of water is incorrect.

 

[elayman]

Originally Posted by LDG

I know. I was responding to furryfriends50 claim and caculation that cats needed to drink 1.25 cups of water a day. I was merely pointing out that the obvious - a cat on an all wet diet gets enough water, and the volume of wet food isn't even 1.25 cups, so the claim/math that a cat requires 1.25 cups of water is incorrect.

A cat that is drinking more than one cup from a bowl every day I would have checked by a vet. And definitely if you notice that your cat is suddenly drinking too much water you should seek medical advice. Because as I'm sure everyone here is aware, excessive drinking is a symptom for many serious diseases starting from diabetes to kidney failure.

 

[AbbysMom]

I really don't understand why this debate (which constantly pops up here) is getting so heated and there are repeated potshots being taken at people. It's not just this thread, it seems to be the trend here lately. I rarely read the threads in this forum and I am losing my patience, so I have to think many members are.

Just a reminder, this is not the IMO forum. Respect for fellow members is expected here and if not given will result in disciplinary action. That's the bottom line. Play nice people.

 

[goingpostal]

Originally Posted by Carolina

Oh, I am sure there is...
Another thing I don't quite understand about the way people "raw" feed their cats and say it is imitating what they eat in the wild, and that it is balanced:
In the wild, when a cat kills its prey, usually the first thing it will eat is the stomach, which will consist of enzymes, partially digested grains (or naturally "cooked" if you will), greens, roots, vegetables... and whatever that animal has eaten. So, the true natural raw diet should consist of meat, cooked grains, and vegetables.
I do not see raw feeders feeding grains, and see them feeding very little vegetables. This is not what a cat in the wild will eat IMO.

I feed whole prey to my cat and ferrets and none of them ever go for the stomach first, it's different for all but normally head or legs and in heavily vegetarian animals like guinea pigs and rabbits they will not even touch the intestines or stomach at all. If they open it by mistake they will not eat any more until I clean it off for them, I started gutting these to make it easier on all. Mice, rats, quail guts are eaten completely. Obligate carnivores have a very low need for carbs and can't digest grains or veggies so why would you feed them?

 

[bastetservant]

I wonder, too, why this topic brings out so much animosity.

There is no excuse for this behavior.


Robin

 

[yosemite]

Has anyone but me noticed that it starts getting heated when raw feeding is introduced to the mix?

Raw feeding is a very personal choice and should not be "pushed" on others. Even though I am retired and have plenty of time to do it right, I don't want the work or the responsibility particularly when it can be dangerous if not done correctly.

 

[bastetservant]

Yes. SOME of the raw feeding proponents seem to be zealots. That's always a problem, no matter what the issue.

Considering all the abused and neglected cats around, and all those eating the worst, cheapest commercial food, we should all be glad to be among others here who put so much thought and care into providing for their cats health. And we should all respect each other.

Treating others with less than respect does not make them open to your point of view. It makes them shut down to all you say, and form a negative opinion of you. You invalidate your point of view.


Robin

 

[feralvr]

just read through this thread at the request of a friend but after editing. Don't get the heat here!!!!! Could cook raw meat miles away with all of this heat

. I agree with Robin. We are lucky to be amongst so many people who want the very best diet for their cats. Some people probably would break the bank to feed their cats better than they feed themselves. It is sad when people have to hit below the belt on such a subject as nutrition for our cats. Let's just agree to disagree and still be kind

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by LDG

I know. I was responding to furryfriends50 claim and caculation that cats needed to drink 1.25 cups of water a day. I was merely pointing out that the obvious - a cat on an all wet diet gets enough water, and the volume of wet food isn't even 1.25 cups, so the claim/math that a cat requires 1.25 cups of water is incorrect.

Your response completely ignores what I just said.
1.25 cups does not equal 1.25 cups of wet food. Therefor, nothing is proved by saying 'A cat doesn't eat 1.25 cups of wet, so it doesn't need 1.25 cups of water.'
On top of that, with some larger breeds of cats, it is entirely possible that they Would consume 1.25 cups of wet. What then?

Also, the reason this thread has gone on is because some posts don't make any sense, the information is incorrect, etc and so some people find the need to address it.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Minka

1.25 cups of water does not equal the moisture in 1.25 cups of wet food. Not only that, but when you eat something that is dry (human example: popcorn, cat example: kibble) you have to drink more than if you didn't eat it.

Processing calories requires water, yes, but unless the food is salted it makes no difference if one consumes very soggy cereal or dry cereal and a glass of milk.

Common sense dictates that 1.25 cups of water is greater than the water in 1.25 cups of wet food minus the 10% moisture in an equivalent feeding suggestion of kibble.

Originally Posted by Minka

Like it was said before, kibble has only been around less than 100 years. The rest of the time, the cats were eating fresh meat only, the equivalent to a 'wild diet.'

Cats were on horrible diets in years past, eating some rodents and birds that they could catch, but also refuse, and what humans were feeding included random boiled scraps, milk, and other inappropriate food.

For example, feline expert Gordon Stables in 1876 wrote:

If then, only for the sake of making (a cat) more valuable as a vermin-killer, she ought to have regular and sufficient food. A cat ought to be fed at least twice a day. Let her have a dish to herself, put down to her, and removed when the meal is finished. Experience is the best teacher as regards the quantity of a cat's food, and in quality let it be varied. Oatmeal porridge and milk, or white bread steeped in warm milk, to which a little sugar has been added, are both excellent breakfasts for puss.

The manufacturer of Spratt back in the day also wrote:

Attend to the feeding, and, at a more than one-day show, cats ought to have water as well as milk. I think boiled lights, cut into small pieces, with a very small portion of bullock's liver and bread soaked, is the best food; but I have tried Spratt's Patent Cat Food with a great number of cats, both of my own and those of friends, and have nearly always found it agree; and at a cat show it would, I believe, be both handy and cleanly.

So we should be very thankful of the amazing advances in modern commercial feline diets and nutritional understanding and overall feline care.

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Processing calories requires water, yes, but unless the food is salted it makes no difference if one consumes very soggy cereal or dry cereal and a glass of milk.

Kibble is salted however..

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Minka

Kibble is salted however..

Some kibble is salted, as are most commercial wet recipes. Again, there is little difference in the ingredients of a quality commercial wet food and a grain-free low carb kibble. Same meats, veggies, protein/fat/carb percentages, just one is boiled and one is baked. Dry is generally more practical, and is more cost effective to process and distribute (cheap 15 pound plastic bag vs the many fragile cans it takes to equal that many calories and the water weight associated w/ 80% moisture recipes explains the big cost difference; an extreme version of comparing the cost of four 3oz cans vs a 12oz can of food). But I like mixed feeding for the added moisture.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Yosemite

I don't have to leave it out. When I feed wet food he goes and eats it all just as we would a meal so it never stays around long enough to go stale. Free-feeding dry food was what got him fat in the first place.

Sorry for the late reply, I didn't notice this statement, since it was embedded in a self-quote.

That is exactly what I was trying to say. You don't leave wet out, and its 80% water very much limiting how much can be eaten at once, so more or less forcing calorie control. Free-feeding dry on the other hand is a snap, so many people do it. Some cats will overeat though. Point is that its not inherent that dry food is fattening, just the fact that unlimited calories are available for the cat to snack on 10-20 times a day. If you portion control the dry food just the same as the wet food, your cat isn't going to get fat, its a simple calories in vs calories used equation.