IBD cat on raw? Other ideas?

bluesmom

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Hi,

My 14 yr old kitty, Blue, has eaten dry food (Science Diet) for the last 4 years.  Before that, I don't know what she ate because I adopted her from the Pound when she was 10.  I think she has probably eaten dry all her life.   I now know that is not the best idea, but I unfortunately didn't realize that until recent research.

Anyhow, in April she began to get ill and not want to eat anything.  I went to the vet and her blood tests were normal but an ultrasound showed probable inflammatory bowel disease (but couldn't rule out lymphoma).  Because I could not afford an invasive test to rule between the 2 diseases, we went with assuming (hoping) it is i.b.d.  She was given prednisone and a diet of novel protein has been attempted (without success) for the last couple of months.  The prednisone brought her around and she seemed almost her old self again, but a very picky eater.  I tried her on half the foods out there.  Suddenly she won't eat dry at all.  I have managed to get her to eat Evo 95% protein turkey-chicken wet most of the time.  Sometimes she turns her nose up at it, but it mainly seems the only thing she will eat.  The vet told me to "play hardball" with her and insist she eat novel proteins (canned) but she wouldn't.  So I had to give her something, so we have settled on the Evo for now, although it is likely she is allergic to chicken.  

A few days ago she wouldn't eat much of anything and the substitute vet told me she probably has lymphoma and the prednisone only puts lymphoma in remission for a few months and then they get sick again (wish they had told me this at the beginning..it was quite a shock!).

The whole time I keep reading on the internet that raw foods may CURE IBD.  Every time I bring this up to either vet they don't recommend it because she is on prednisone and her immune system is compromised so the supposed bacteria in raw food might kill her.  I think they are against the whole idea of raw food even in healthy kitties.

Well, oddly, she started eating again the last few days...not a ton, but some.  

I wish I knew what to feed her or how to get her to eat novel protein.  I tried veal, duck, etc.  A million canned brands I got at Mud Bay natural pet foods, but she only wants this Evo.

I am frustrated and kind of out of ideas.  I guess I could start all over again from the beginning on various food trials.  I wish I had kept notes about what she likes and doesn't like.  Mainly, she doesn't like most everything.

I don't know what to do.  Any ideas?  I love this little character so much.
 

Willowy

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Raw would be ideal (there are pasteurized raw foods if you're worried about bacteria), but will she eat it? That's the problem with kitties. . .so picky. There are lots of tips about how to trasition a cat to raw in this forum, but with her health problems, she simply has to eat, no matter what it is.

EVO 95% meat is a very good food, though. Next best thing to raw.
 
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feralvr

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sorry for your kitty and :hugs: to you for trying to work towards a better diet for her!! There is a member who will soon be here, I am sure :lol3:, Carolina who's Bugsy has the same issues and has made a complete turnaround on raw. I am sure she will have many tips/suggestions for you. In the meantime, this link will help you. http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread

Some kitties are so set in their ways toward a certain diet that it makes it a huge undertaking to make a change for the better, but it can be done!!!!!!! :D Some cat's take to it so naturally and some not so. I have six and two of my six ate raw from day one. The other four - :lol3: well - it took some convincing and still does on some days. I think that a raw diet will absolutely be the best thing for your kitty suffering with IBD :nod: :vibes::vibes::vibes::vibes::vibes:
 
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ldg

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Awwww................ :heart3: My kitty Lazlo was diagnosed with Lymphoma last year. His didn't present in a way that was confusing between IBD and lymphoma - that's actually quite common. (And IBD can actually morph into lymphoma. :( ). He was good about treatment and vet trips, so he underwent chemotherapy. Without it, he was given four weeks to live. He had a "massive" tumor in his stomach and bleeding ulcers.

BarbB is dealing with exactly this confusing diagnosis, but did the diagnostic work to determine it was lymphoma: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/243465/toby-vomiting-and-losing-weight-fine-otherwise

BarbB's Toby just completed his first 4-week cycle of chemo. My Lazlo started chemo at the very end of July last year. The treatment cycles are six months. We transitioned him to raw in January of this year, before he was done with the chemo. He's on a maintenance dose of prednisone (5mg a day - he weighs 12 pounds). The hoslitic vet we work with is beyond emphatic that this is the best thing we can do to support his long term health. :nod: The other two vets (traditional) we work with are not opposed to us feeding raw (though many vets really don't know much about it).

What dose of pred is your kitty on? All the vets have explained to me that this 5mg dose is anti-inflammatory, but not a high enough dose to be immuno-suppressive. :nod:

Even if it were...

We give ALL the kitties a probiotic - and whether you keep your baby on EVO or try raw - whatever you feed her, in fact, I HIGHLY recommend doing this. Any acidophilus supplement will really help your kitty. :nod: I give our cats the same supplement my husband and I use - Natural Factors acidophilus + bifidus. Many use and like Proviable-DC for cats and dogs (available at amazon). Whatever you use, look for one with 10 billion active cultures. :nod: Just sprinkle a capsule of whatever acidophilus-based supplement on one meal a day. :) Having a healthy gut flora is the first step to a healthier overall immune system.

In this thread, I started exploring the relationship between the GI system and the immune system: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/241072/the-digestive-system-immune-system-connection

I think whether it is IBD or cancer, raw is the best thing you can feed your kitty. Lazlo is absolutely thriving on it. :nod: He doesn't love all the raw I feed him. But I make sure he gets treats he loves (they happen to be freeze dried meat treats :lol3: ). However, right now I view his food as part of his ongoing treatment. :dk:

We have an FIV+ kitty, Chumley. Technically by definition he has a compromised immune system. But again, it's because of him we even went to a holistic vet, and she's the one who encouraged us to go raw, because of him.

SOOOOOOO................ all of that is to say - are there any pet food stores you can get to that sell commercial raw foods? Nature's Variety frozen raw food is pretty widely distributed - and if a non-chain store carries it, they may be able to order different foods you can try. :dk: There are LOTS of foods you can order online if you're willing to pay for them plus shipping. The only frustrating part of that is - what if she hates it? (Of course, we're all finding that what they hate one day, they may love three days later. :rolleyes: ). The ability to try things if a local pet store can help source gives you more flexibility for lower cost.

But if you're willing to potentially waste money.... any friends or neighbors that may want leftovers if your kitty doesn't like the food, even after a few tries?

But if she likes EVO, honestly, I'm not so sure that I'd try to FORCE a change on her. :dk: Right now, you have to weigh "health" vs. her quality of life - how much she ENJOYS herself every day. :rub:


That said, by altering the smell of the food with different toppings, you may be surprised. We have a stocked arsenal - all freeze dried stuff. Whole Life chicken (almost universally loved by cats); Whole Life Turkey, Salmon... freeze dried beef liver, freeze dried chicken liver.... you can try parmesan cheese....

One of my kitties is so funny. After a few weeks of sprinkling various things on her food that always got her eating, when she takes a break now, all I have to do is PRETEND to sprinkle something on her food, and she'll start eating again. :flail: So who knows? After you find various toppings your kitty likes (assuming there are some!), you may actually find yourself able to use a "fake" topper! :lol3:

I'd look at it as a bold new experiment - something to try to have FUN with. Approach it as a puzzle, and a labor of love - and trying to find what she enjoys or will eat, or how she'll eat it won't be so frustrating. :heart3:


FYI, if you have the time, it may help you to read some of our transition threads. :nod:

Carolina's is a good starting place, and her Bugsy battled IBD for SO long.... :heart2: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239771/...lucky-bugsy-and-hope-to-raw-challenges-galore

Sally (mrsgreenjeens) has some really fussy kitties: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/242097/officially-started-them-on-raw

And Lauren (Feralvr) does too! :lol3: (Sorry, Lauren, don't mean to laugh. But I always think of Perla spitting her raw food out on the wall that one day. :anon: ) http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240608/a-new-raw-some-beginning-yup-another-one-lol

:hugs: :hugs: :hugs:

Please - ask ANY questions!!!!!!!!!
 
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feralvr

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And Lauren (Feralvr) does too! :lol3: (Sorry, Lauren, don't mean to laugh. But I always think of Perla spitting her raw food out on the wall that one day. :anon: ) http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240608/a-new-raw-some-beginning-yup-another-one-lol
:hugs: :hugs: :hugs:
Please - ask ANY questions!!!!!!!!!
AW, Laurie :lol3:, great advice as always and I agree that reading Carolina's thread will be of great benefit to Bluesmom. :nod: BUT, MAN IT IS LLLLLOOOOONNNNNGGG - truly a book but contains many laughable days too, in fact all of our threads are a bit on the comical side :lol2: as we went through this process together!!! :nod:

AND - I still laugh at my Perla too..... she still will do that from time to time - spit raw bits all over the wall by her bowl. :lol3: SILLY LITTLE ANGEL!!!!!! :rub: :rofl:
 

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I don't have a fussy cat at all, so I can't offer advice in that regard.... but Jinx has IBD and is about a million percent better since being on raw.

I won't delve into his life story too much. Basically, we've had him since he was a kitten and he's probably suffered from this his whole life, but we assumed that vomiting was "normal" for him. About 4 months ago (he's 10 years old now) he got REALLY bad and was vomiting upwards of 10+ times a day and was losing lots of weight, basically wasting away. Blood work was very normal. We didn't do an untrasound but could only conclude he had IBD. The vet wanted us to try meds and a prescription diet - so I agreed. Meds didn't help at all (and were a PAIN to give) and my normal garbage disposal kitty didn't feel like eating the Rx diet. At this point, the vet was pretty convinced that it was lymphoma, since the medications weren't making any difference. I decided, to heck with all of that, and put him on raw.

Ever since his first raw meal... he's vomited maybe a couple times? And he's gained back some MUCH needed weight - in fact, he's gained back a little too much and is getting fat now!


Sooo while I can't say it's the answer for your kitty, I CAN certainly tell you it's worth trying! I wish we would have known about it 10 years ago when we got him!
 

ldg

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Actually, I figure it doesn't take TOO long to read the transition threads if you scroll through looking for the posts only by the original poster. :nod: No need to waste the time reading other's responses, support and encouragement - just what happened with the food and the kitties IN the transition to raw. :)
 
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bluesmom

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Hi.  Sorry it took me so long to reply.  I was pretty tired last night and some other things going on, but anyway....

Let me tell you about today.   Well a few days ago she was eating the 95% Evo turkey-chicken well.  This morning she wouldn't eat it.  I had to run to work, so I left it there and figured she'd eat it by the time I got home.  (Usually I run home at noon to give her some more but I couldn't today).  So when I got home she hadn't eaten it and it was all dried and yukky and she was starving and meowing and carrying on.  So I put out some more and wouldn't touch it.  Then I remembered it had been over 72 hr since she had her appetite stimulant.  So I gave her that.   That always works within minutes!!!  She ate a little bit but didn't really like it.  Then she was carrying on all night:  "I'm hungry!  I'm hungry" but won't eat anything I put down.  I started trying dry food again...I have a million healthy samples from the holistic pet store.  Won't eat any of those.  Then I was eating some cereal and for the first time I have ever seen it she licked a lot of the milk out of my bowl (as I ate it!).  She has never shown any interest in that before.  I put it down for her to eat but then suddenly she wouldn't eat that either.  So maybe that instantly didn't agree with her.

I tried some Evo venison....wouldn't touch it.  Aggghhh!   But what I'm guessing is that the next 2 days she will eat the Evo turkey because the appetite stimulant seems to work in 3 day cycles with day 2 and 3 being the best.  But it's a shame to have to give her an appetite stimulant.

It's interesting to think what it must be like for her to have this condition.  Does her tummy feel bad?  Is she nauseous?  Is that why she won't eat?  Do the foods that don't agree with her make her feel all queazy and that is why she won't eat?  Why will sometimes she'll eat the Evo like a starving horse and other times won't?  Wish I understood this.  And yet she is hungry all the time, always complaining, but never eating....I guess she knows it will not agree with her, yet she doesn't get diarrhea.  Once, I gave her these salmon treats and she ate them like there was no tomorrow, but then she did get diarrhea, so I"m thinking she's sensitive to salmon or maybe something else in those cheap treats.

Ok, but anyway, THANK YOU for all this information and support!  I'm sorry I'm whining here.  I will go read all the info you gave me.

I live in Seattle and have a great natural food store for pets called MudBay.  They are fantastic and have many good foods and hypoallergenic foods to choose from and most of the staff know all about IBD.  The manager spent 15 min explaining the raw food to me....they have a whole fridge full of it and also freeze-dried.  And they sent me home with some cat probiotic samples.

My problem is how to transition her off the prednisolone (5 mg/day) so she can start raw.   And these vets are against it, so I guess I'm going to have to find a new vet to supervise it.  The one holistic vet that I know of is backed up for weeks (she's quite popular), so I guess I'll start calling the other vets (there's tons of them in a city this big) and see if any of the others will help me move her to raw food.  So LDG, it sounds like you are saying I can just start her on the raw food even if she is on prednisone?  It's kind of scary to "go against medical advice" on my own, without back up from another vet.

Well, again, thank you, you are all great.  Thank you for taking the time to answer me and support me.
 

carolina

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Hi, I am the Carolina they mentioned in there lol....
Seems that Lazlo is taking The same prednisone dose your boy is, and Lazlo is doing just fine..... Add that to the fact that Lazlo started on raw during chemo..... And I hope you feel safer.
A lot of vets are against raw.... Mainly because they don't know enough about it.... The nutritional education they get comes from hills, mainly...
As for bacteria.... There is a big recall going on right now.... Salmonella in kibbles.... And is killing animals, and making the parents sick.
My vet has patients that feed raw....since 1987.... Has he had salmonella cases? Yeah.... How were they? Minor, maneagable diarrhea, nothing to be too worried about it.
Now.....before raw, my Bugsy suffered. His Ibd was out of control, and everything we tried, and I mean we tried everything, nothing worked. Actually, the only thing that happened, was to affect his liver. He had an exploratory surgery scheduled, but I didn't go for it, because he can't be treated anyways.. his liver can't take medications anylonger.
My only option was to put him on a raw diet.... And after years of not being well, on the very 1st day on 100%raw, he was good, 100%good, like never before.
There can be a lot of work in transitioning a kitty to raw..... But some kitties get it just like that, immediately. One thing you need to do, is to.put him on strong probiotic in advance.
Bugsy used to go to the vet Alltel the time; now he has bee once since November, for hairball problems. Tomorrow he has his annual, ans I am beyond excited!
I would give it a try... Cut a small pied of chicken from the freezer, warm it up under warm water in a little baggie and see if he eats it.....
Grid luck!
 

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Like I said, if you're really worried about bacteria (and it shouldn't be a problem if you keep the meats properly frozen/refrigerated), there are pasteurized raw foods that are guaranteed to be pathogen-free. Nature's Variety and Primal for sure, and I think there are a few more brands. Safer than kibble, and just as safe as canned! Talk to the pet store guy--he seems helpful. Since she's not eating anyway, you might as well take advantage of her hunger, get a few samples and see if she'll eat those. Nothing to lose at this point, really, and it could help a lot.

I wouldn't mess with her pred dose. If you can get her eating raw and she starts to feel better, it could be an option at that time. But if she's this bad off I definitely wouldn't do anything yet.
 
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mschauer

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My problem is how to transition her off the prednisolone (5 mg/day) so she can start raw.   And these vets are against it, so I guess I'm going to have to find a new vet to supervise it.  The one holistic vet that I know of is backed up for weeks (she's quite popular), so I guess I'll start calling the other vets (there's tons of them in a city this big) and see if any of the others will help me move her to raw food.  So LDG, it sounds like you are saying I can just start her on the raw food even if she is on prednisone?  It's kind of scary to "go against medical advice" on my own, without back up from another vet.
You could ask the staff at MudBay if they know of a good raw friendly vet.
 

ldg

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You could ask the staff at MudBay if they know of a good raw friendly vet.
bluesmom, I think a raw-friendly vet is a good idea. In fact, given your location, you can probably find a really good holistic D.V.M. :nod:

But yes, most people think "steroids," and think "immune-suppresive." I did. I actually work with three vets at three different practices. Two are traditional, one knows more about nutrition than the other. The third is a holistic D.V.M. (trained in nutrition, Chinese Medicine, and western herbs). They all agree - 5mg of pred for 10+ pound cat is not immune-suppressive, it's anti-inflammatory only. But I do not suggest you take my word for it, I like mschauer's advice. Or you can search for a holistic vet here: http://www.ahvma.org

But given how sick your baby has been, I wouldn't stop the pred to start raw. I'd start her on an acidophilus probiotic as soon as possible - like yesterday LOL - and hold off on the raw until you're comfortable feeding raw and giving her pred at the same time.

And, as Willowy pointed out, there are three commercial raw manufacturers that have pathogen-free guaranteed food (due to the High Pressure Processing used: http://www.naturesvariety.com/learning/questions/5

The companies are Nature's Variety, Primal, and Stella & Chewy's. S&C makes freeze dried food for cats; it can be fed as a treat dry, or rehydrated for meals. It's the more expensive feeding option, but super convenient (and cats typically really like it). I always keep some of the freeze dried chicken cat food on hand for when someone's being fussy. :nod: But S&C also makes frozen dog food patties. They're appropriate for cats - they have the same basic profile as the Nature's Variety frozen raw food (95% meat/bones/organs), and are supplemented with taurine. These foods would be SAFER than feeding any kibble, and as safe as canned foods. :)

In answer to your question - yes, her tummy probably hurts. She probably has cramping, and feels nauseous. That is probably why she's hungry - but doesn't want to eat, in fact. Lazlo displayed the same thing. He was hungry, but nothing smelled right. He was nauseous. You might want to ask your vet about an anti-nausea medication. :nod: That helped Lazlo far more than the appetite stimulant. :nod: We used Cerenia.
 
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bluesmom

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You guys are incredible!!!!!!!

I am getting far more help here than I ever dreamed when I initially stopped by with a question!

I'd have to say you guys are passionate about this...that's great!

Here's a round of applause for you all!!!


I am going to be back with comments in a few minutes....I just got home from work and need to get some sustenance, but first I wanted to say:

Thank You!!!!

Back in a bit with response...
 
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bluesmom

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Guess that few minutes turned into 12 hrs!   I was tired from the rough week which included 24 hrs in which she would not eat her food but kept meowing.

Anyhow, I guessed right and found another food she would eat:  Wellness Turkey and Salmon.  I guess she didn't want the chicken in the Evo.  She is eating the turkey & salmon with gusto.

I called the one holistic vet in Seattle and she is booked until August!  I told her office staff she needs to get a partner, but difficult for her to find someone with the same philosophy.  So she told me about a vet nearby that raw is ok with.  I called them and the office staff said they don't encourage it but they are not going to tell their clients how to feed.  Well on the basis of what the first person told me I am going to make an appt with these people anyhow, although the attitude is not exactly encouraging, still it's better than my current vet.

I did ask MudBay for a vet but they didn't have a rec.  I think I know why now.  All the vets in this city are old school except that one lady who is booked to the sky.

I will go out and buy probiotics for her today.  Luckily she is a great pill taker.  I agree with the above to keep her on the pred.

Taking care of a ibd/lymphoma kitty is not easy, but I am here for her in her old age.  She has been a great cat the 4 yrs I have had her.  I am totally in love with her.  She is a  Turkish Angora.  She used to want to play so much, even at 10, that I had to play with her 1/2 hr every night or she would go crazy.  Now I miss it....she won't play at all anymore.  But she is still sweet when she is feeling ok.

I am getting a little sleep-deprived these days as she wakes me up meowing for food before I am ready to get up.   Nothing to be done about it...she is old and I am dedicated to take care of her in her old age.
 

ldg

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Oh - on the probiotics? If you get (got) a capsule, you don't need to pill her. :) Just sprinkling it on her food should work. :nod: Most cats like it.

So... did you make an appointment with the holistic vet? I know you're seeing the "not anti-raw" vet in the meantime. Just wondering. :lol3:

Also in the meantime, you can - IF YOU WANT TO - try some of the pathogen-free guaranteed raw foods.
 
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bluesmom

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Thanks! LDG....I didn't think of opening the capsule and putting it on her food [DUH].  I'll try that.   Poor little gal already has to put up with the pred pill every day, but she is totally good about taking it.  By the way, every day after I give her the pill, I give her a big hug and stick my nose into her fur, which I love to smell....she smells so wonderful to me!  This is my one chance to do that each day as usually she doesn't want to be picked up or hugged, but I stick her on the kitchen table to give her the pill, and then I grab my chance to hug/smell her!  I would bottle her body scent if I could, it smells so good!  I guess it's like when you love someone/some cat, they just smell great to you!

I did NOT make an appt with the holistic vet.  I am on a limited budget and I hear she is very expensive.  Also, I'm pretty busy and don't want to deal with how hard it is to get an appt with her.

Next weekend I'll have some time to really research this and then I can try her on it.  This week-end was pretty busy and I am unable to research it (IE, read carefully all the info you have given me and other info).

I'm happy to report that she has really calmed down now that I switched her to Wellness turkey-salmon.  She is almost her old sweet self again.  Took her and me a couple of days to recover from that 24 hr food refusal meow-a-thon.   So we are coasting along here for now.
 
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