The Digestive System - Immune System connection

ldg · Feb 5, 2012

A number of us with immune-compromised kitties - or kitties with sensitive tummies - are in the process of switching to raw right now. When I argued against raw, I saw on a lot of the dog forums, people in transition were talking about diarrhea or vomiting, and typical responses were that the animal is detoxifying... this just reinforced for me that there were risks to raw that weren't worth the benefit, thinking that was hogwash.

But the more research I did on raw (in debating against it), the more convinced I became it IS what cats need. Now - I'm not so sure that vomiting and diarrhea can be chalked up to "detoxifying." In fact - after the further work I've done, I think it is simply that are animals are not YET producing the digestive enzymes they need to properly process the new food. Just like the first thing anyone on TCS recommends when someone has a cat with diarrhea on a new kibble, the same holds true for raw food. It has to be introduced properly.

During our transition, I have been amazed, quite frankly, at the RAPID changes I'm seeing the kitties. Especially behavioral changes. And I argued that my cats were thriving before. Of course - I felt the same way when they were on kibble, and I saw the changes when I moved them to all wet food. :nod:

But Lazlo did have one episode of diarrhea, and Shelly violently vomited up beef when I introduced it.

The lessons we've been learning about this transition, together, indicate that raw can NOT be treated like canned food when it comes to introductions to it, to new proteins, and when switching proteins. It needs to be done slowly.

But why are they having diarrhea or vomiting at all if raw meat is what they're "built" to eat?

And as our little carnivores have digestive systems designed to run on raw meat... why do vets caution against feeding it to immune-compromised animals? Wouldn't it HELP them?

Of course... there is salmonella and other pathogens in our food chain. And their digestive systems need to be prepared to handle them.

But just what IS the relationship between the GI system and the Immune system? Can we do something to "prepare" our immune-compromised kitties for a raw diet so it doesn't cause them problems? And WILL it help them?

So I started doing some investigating. This is NOT polished, and NOT completely thought through, but I really wanted the participation of others that may be interested. So to just get the discussion started, here's what I've got so far.

Summary:

1) GI health is imperative for proper immune system function; proper immune system function is integral to proper GI function.

GI function and Immune system function are very closely linked: the GI system is the first line of defense in immune system health. For one, improper GI functioning "steals" enzymes from the immune system, weakening it.

2) The Immune system is VERY sensitive to stress. A weak immune system can cause the GI system line of defense to not work properly.

3) 90% of potential pathogens gain access to us via GI tract; the GI tract is "lined" with "gut associated lymphoid tissue (GALT). The GALT is one of the most important things in healthy immune system function. The digestive tract itself is not technically a part of immune system - but it is the gateway and the "headquarters" of immune system function.

Here are articles that led me to these conclusions:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/467447-how-do-the-digestive-immune-systems-work-together/

“Your digestive tract has an important relationship with your immune system, since the digestive tract is one of the mechanisms through which you're exposed to tremendous numbers of pathogenic organisms each day. The immune system works with the digestive tract to help protect you from infection by these potential invaders….”

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_275/ai_n16675814/

Article: Why enzymes are essential to a healthy immune system "The majority of us never even give a thought to enzymes, yet without them our bodies could not carry out their most basic functions. In their role as organic catalysts, enzymes make possible the millions of biochemical reactions that take place within us daily. They are the powerful engines that drive every bodily process, including breathing and circulation. They digest food, transport nutrients, carry away toxic wastes, purify the blood, deliver hormones, balance cholesterol and triglycerides, nourish the brain, build protein into muscle, and feed and fortify the endocrine system. On a larger scale, enzymes slow the aging process and support wellness and homeostasis (the body's ability to achieve balance among its many functions).”

http://www.immunesystemetc.com/digestion.html

“inadequate digestive system will “steal” enzymes from the immune system to operate..” (weakening immune system!)

http://www.epidemicanswers.org/epidemic/biological-dysfunction/gut-dysbiosis-and-immune-function/

“The headquarters of the immune system is the gastrointestinal tract. Since approximately 90% of known pathogens enter the body through the gastrointestinal tract, it makes sense that the vast majority of the immune system would be located here. Within the first few months of an infant’s life, the gastrointestinal tract goes from being completely sterile (in the womb) to becoming colonized by hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of different types of microorganisms. These colonies of microorganisms are critical to immune system development, and to fundamental biological processes such as digestion, nutrient assimilation, as well as detoxification. The microorganisms in the gastrointestinal tract play a critical role in immune system function.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_gastrointestinal_tract#Immune_function

The gastrointestinal tract is also a prominent part of the immune system.[10] Ref: ^ Richard Coico, Geoffrey Sunshine, Eli Benjamini (2003). Immunology: a short course. New York: Wiley-Liss. ISBN 0-471-22689-0.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/gi_immune.html

GALT: Aside from all of its other functions, the gastrointestinal tract is a lymphoid organ, and the lymphoid tissue within it is collectively referred to as the gut-associated lymphoid tissue or GALT. The number of lymphocytes in the GALT is roughly equivalent to those in the spleen, and, based on location, these cells are distributed in three basic populations… “In addition to the GALT discussed above, lymph nodes that receive lymph draining from the gut (mesenteric nodes) and Kupffer cells (phagocytic cells in the liver) play important roles in protecting the body against invasion.”

http://www.hemorrhoidinformationcenter.com/the-digestive-immune-system-connection/

It has long been noted that to have a strong immune system, there first must be a healthy digestive system. These two systems used to be thought of as separate entities. Now, through research, an intimate connection between the two has been discovered.

When we think of the digestive system, we think of it as a series of organs that help us digest food. This is partially correct. Actually much more happens within this system. Digestion starts in the mouth and ends in the rectum. When you boil it down, it’s one long “tube.” Within that “tube,” food is taken in, broken down, and then excreted. Lining this “tube” is a multitude of beneficial bacteria, immune cells, and secretions. Food and liquids spend anywhere from 15-30 hours along any one portion of this system. It’s the only place in the body where the outside world interacts with the inside world. For that reason alone, there has to be a protective mechanism in place to ward off invaders. This is where the immune system comes into play.

Within the mouth live immune factors known as secretory immunoglobulin A (sIGa). These “fighters” await any invader or microbe not welcomed in the body. Once activated, this sIGa contacts other immune mediators and attacks the invader or microbe.

As we make our way down the digestive system to the stomach, we find another host of fighters, the gut flora. This flora or bacteria are natural inhabitants of the digestive system. They help digest food, but also, help keep a close eye on the general environment of the system. It is astounding how many bacteria are found in the digestive system. If you were to weigh the entire flora population in the digestive system, it would weigh upwards of 9 pounds, in a healthy adult. There are actually more bacteria in the digestive system than there are cells in the body. This complex array of bacteria is crucial for healthy maintenance of the digestive lining. Without them, the stomach and the rest of the digestive system may become susceptible to opportunistic bacteria. These opportunistic bacteria, like Candida Albicans, can offset the natural balance of bacteria and cause havoc to the system.

Supplemental:

http://www.microbiologybytes.com/iandi/2b.html Anatomy of the Immune System

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/immunesystem/documents/theimmunesystem.pdf Article at the NIH with overview of the Immune System and how it works

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_268/ai_n15893085/?tag=content;col1 (Plechner – Pets at Risk author)

Article: The Importance of IgA (Immunoglobulin A)

Immunoglobulin A (IgA) has been a special interest of mine as a major yardstick in assessing and treating endocrine-immune diseases. IgA is the most abundant antibody and is especially important in mucosal immunity. It is an essential protective factor against infectious agents, allergens, and foreign proteins that enter the body via the mouth, nose, upper respiratory tracts, intestines, and the reproductive tract. (1)

In humans, IgA deficiency is recognized as the most frequent immunodeficiency. (2) Older studies suggest that up to two-thirds of individuals with IgA deficiency are healthy, but such conclusions are based on healthy blood donor subjects in whom deficiency has been determined from initial screening without any follow-up. (3) Recent studies indicate that as many as 80% of those who are IgA deficient, but healthy, may develop synopulmonary infections, allergies, autoimmune diseases, and gastrointestinal diseases, especially celiac disease, as well as gut and lymphoid malignancies. (4)

In animals, I routinely find low IgA blood levels associated with malabsorption and intestinal tract inflammation. This impairs the animal's ability to absorb both nutrients and medications. An IgA deficiency is seen in gingival buccal inflammation, glossitis, esophagitis, gastric enteritis, and food sensitivities.

I started all the kitties on probiotics about two weeks before I started them on raw. After reading the above articles and papers, I added digestive enzymes for all of them. They've never eaten raw proteins before, and they've never eaten bone before. Their bodies are learning to produce the digestive enzymes they need to properly digest this food... but because they'd been eating kibble for 8 years, and cooked (canned) food only for over a year, their bodies need the support until they're producing them on their own.

But at this point, I am more convinced than ever that ESPECIALLY for our sick kitties, the need the reduced stress on their GI systems to HELP their immune systems do their job. Yes, the transition TO raw can be a bit stressful... but with the support of probiotics and digestive enzymes, it doesn't have to be physically stressful. :nod:

Any thoughts or further information?

carolina · Feb 5, 2012

LDG said:
A number of us with immune-compromised kitties - or kitties with sensitive tummies - are in the process of switching to raw right now. When I argued against raw, I saw on a lot of the dog forums, people in transition were talking about diarrhea or vomiting, and typical responses were that the animal is detoxifying... this just reinforced for me that there were risks to raw that weren't worth the benefit, thinking that was hogwash.
But the more research I did on raw (in debating against it), the more convinced I became it IS what cats need. Now - I'm not so sure that vomiting and diarrhea can be chalked up to "detoxifying." In fact - after the further work I've done, I think it is simply that are animals are not YET producing the digestive enzymes they need to properly process the new food. Just like the first thing anyone on TCS recommends when someone has a cat with diarrhea on a new kibble, the same holds true for raw food. It has to be introduced properly.

SO True! The ONLY times I have had either vomit or diarrhea here, were the times I introduced meats too fast. Even when the proteins were the same, but I was giving different brands - for example: They were already eating NV Rabbit, and I gave them right of the bat a meal of 100% fegnion Rabbit. Total disaster.
I have learned that lesson VERY well - introductions, being with new proteins or brands, have to be done slowly - very slowly. I apply a light kibble-transition-speed rule to the kitties here, and never had an issue by doing that. I do not believe in this detox, since I have never had diarrhea issues with any of mine, as the intros were done slowly.

LDG said:
During our transition, I have been amazed, quite frankly, at the RAPID changes I'm seeing the kitties. Especially behavioral changes. And I argued that my cats were thriving before. Of course - I felt the same way when they were on kibble, and I saw the changes when I moved them to all wet food. :nod:

Same here..... Now with Bugsy.... I feel he was just surviving - now he is thriving - WORLD of difference! :clap:

LDG said:
But Lazlo did have one episode of diarrhea, and Shelly violently vomited up beef when I introduced it.
The lessons we've been learning about this transition, together, indicate that raw can NOT be treated like canned food when it comes to introductions to it, to new proteins, and when switching proteins. It needs to be done slowly.
But why are they having diarrhea or vomiting at all if raw meat is what they're "built" to eat?

Have you ever been vegetarian for a while? I have.... Strictly vegetarian for quite a few years..... Then one day I went to Brazil on vacations and decided to eat meat in a BBQ..... :thud:

OMG did I almost died SO sick I got? I felt like I was digesting a BRICK. TMI - but I got sick the both ends like it was nobody's business. NOT fun. As a human, I am also made to eat meat - and eggs, and vegetables..... But my body was no longer producing those enzymes as I wasn't using them in years! Same thing with our kitties - they have been eating highly processed foods, cooked in such high temperatures, that most of the nutrients are killed anyways - in the kibbles, for example..... They are no longer prepared to digest that load of rawsome protein goodness!

LDG said:
And as our little carnivores have digestive systems designed to run on raw meat... why do vets caution against feeding it to immune-compromised animals? Wouldn't it HELP them?
Of course... there is salmonella and other pathogens in our food chain. And their digestive systems need to be prepared to handle them.
But just what IS the relationship between the GI system and the Immune system? Can we do something to "prepare" our immune-compromised kitties for a raw diet so it doesn't cause them problems? And WILL it help them?

I think a lot of vets are afraid of the unknown.... and sadly, most of them do not have much nutritional education outside of what the big box companies give to them anyways..... What surprises me, is to hear about our vets, for example..... who are pro-raw, but yet never recommended the diet to us. Bugsy's vet is one.... I was shocked to hear him saying that he thinks that raw is what cats should be eating anyways, as strict carnivores...... But at the same time..... With all the issues, the alternative recommended was surgery, and not a change of diet - WHY? Was he scared I was not capable of handling the diet? (safety handling issues?) Is there possibly a liability issue with vets recommending a raw diet? Or it just didn't cross his mind? In any case, I am just happy he is onboard with me :nod:

LDG said:
So I started doing some investigating. This is NOT polished, and NOT completely thought through, but I really wanted the participation of others that may be interested. So to just get the discussion started, here's what I've got so far.
Summary:
1) GI health is imperative for proper immune system function; proper immune system function is integral to proper GI function.
GI function and Immune system function are very closely linked: the GI system is the first line of defense in immune system health. For one, improper GI functioning "steals" enzymes from the immune system, weakening it.
2) The Immune system is VERY sensitive to stress. A weak immune system can cause the GI system line of defense to not work properly.
3) 90% of potential pathogens gain access to us via GI tract; the GI tract is "lined" with "gut associated lymphoid tissue (GALT). The GALT is one of the most important things in healthy immune system function. The digestive tract itself is not technically a part of immune system - but it is the gateway and the "headquarters" of immune system function.
Here are articles that led me to these conclusions:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/467447-how-do-the-digestive-immune-systems-work-together/
“Your digestive tract has an important relationship with your immune system, since the digestive tract is one of the mechanisms through which you're exposed to tremendous numbers of pathogenic organisms each day. The immune system works with the digestive tract to help protect you from infection by these potential invaders….”
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_275/ai_n16675814/
Article: Why enzymes are essential to a healthy immune system "The majority of us never even give a thought to enzymes, yet without them our bodies could not carry out their most basic functions. In their role as organic catalysts, enzymes make possible the millions of biochemical reactions that take place within us daily. They are the powerful engines that drive every bodily process, including breathing and circulation. They digest food, transport nutrients, carry away toxic wastes, purify the blood, deliver hormones, balance cholesterol and triglycerides, nourish the brain, build protein into muscle, and feed and fortify the endocrine system. On a larger scale, enzymes slow the aging process and support wellness and homeostasis (the body's ability to achieve balance among its many functions).”
http://www.immunesystemetc.com/digestion.html
“inadequate digestive system will “steal” enzymes from the immune system to operate..” (weakening immune system!)
http://www.epidemicanswers.org/epidemic/biological-dysfunction/gut-dysbiosis-and-immune-function/
“The headquarters of the immune system is the gastrointestinal tract. Since approximately 90% of known pathogens enter the body through the gastrointestinal tract, it makes sense that the vast majority of the immune system would be located here. Within the first few months of an infant’s life, the gastrointestinal tract goes from being completely sterile (in the womb) to becoming colonized by hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of different types of microorganisms. These colonies of microorganisms are critical to immune system development, and to fundamental biological processes such as digestion, nutrient assimilation, as well as detoxification. The microorganisms in the gastrointestinal tract play a critical role in immune system function.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_gastrointestinal_tract#Immune_function
The gastrointestinal tract is also a prominent part of the immune system.[10] Ref: ^ Richard Coico, Geoffrey Sunshine, Eli Benjamini (2003). Immunology: a short course. New York: Wiley-Liss. ISBN 0-471-22689-0.

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/gi_immune.html
GALT: Aside from all of its other functions, the gastrointestinal tract is a lymphoid organ, and the lymphoid tissue within it is collectively referred to as the gut-associated lymphoid tissue or GALT. The number of lymphocytes in the GALT is roughly equivalent to those in the spleen, and, based on location, these cells are distributed in three basic populations… “In addition to the GALT discussed above, lymph nodes that receive lymph draining from the gut (mesenteric nodes) and Kupffer cells (phagocytic cells in the liver) play important roles in protecting the body against invasion.”

http://www.hemorrhoidinformationcenter.com/the-digestive-immune-system-connection/
Supplemental:
http://www.microbiologybytes.com/iandi/2b.html Anatomy of the Immune System
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/immunesystem/documents/theimmunesystem.pdf Article at the NIH with overview of the Immune System and how it works

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_268/ai_n15893085/?tag=content;col1 (Plechner – Pets at Risk author)
Article: The Importance of IgA (Immunoglobulin A)
I started all the kitties on probiotics about two weeks before I started them on raw. After reading the above articles and papers, I added digestive enzymes for all of them. They've never eaten raw proteins before, and they've never eaten bone before. Their bodies are learning to produce the digestive enzymes they need to properly digest this food... but because they'd been eating kibble for 8 years, and cooked (canned) food only for over a year, their bodies need the support until they're producing them on their own.
But at this point, I am more convinced than ever that ESPECIALLY for our sick kitties, the need the reduced stress on their GI systems to HELP their immune systems do their job. Yes, the transition TO raw can be a bit stressful... but with the support of probiotics and digestive enzymes, it doesn't have to be physically stressful. :nod:
Any thoughts or further information?

Digestive Problems and the Immune system -
Fast Facts

Poor digestion leaves the body and the immune system in the same predicament that poor nutrition does – a lack of nutritional factors that support immune functioning and the function of the entire body. This is because a poor functioning digestive system has lost some of the ability to turn what’s consumed into a form the body can use. I think this is a fundamental relationship and maybe one of the most important ones that links the digestive system and the immune system - without a fully functioning digestive system, there is simply not enough nutrition to support a healthy and strong immune system :nod: This is a HUGE change I saw with the raw diet on the kitties - and I noticed right on the litterbox. With raw, you clearly see, by their poops, that ALL the food is getting used by their bodies - they digest the food and suck the nutrients up from it - everything - and the rest that is left, the poop is so tiny that there is no way to realize that they were just not using the food they were eating before :nod: Food was coming in, and coming out undigested - reason why? Simple - they can't process anything but meat, so they were getting very little nutrition out of what they were eating!

We’re using up pancreatic enzymes (digestive enzymes) faster than we used to and we have a limited amount of them. Processed food is a contributing factor. There are numerous symptoms like gas, bloating, belching, muscle pain, skin disorders, insomnia, constipation, diarrhea, and heartburn. Another beauty of raw here - unprocessed food..... no longer stealing pancreatic enzymes :nod: The results for Bugsy on this were instantaneous - his vet has gotten to the conclusion that the inflammation on his gut, leading to his IBD was due to the additives on commercial foods - the only alternative to that? Raw.

An inadequate digestive system will “steal” enzymes from the immune system to operate therefore weakening immune function. Poor digestive capability increases the body’s toxic load.

Some areas of potential inadequacy are low pancreatic enzymes and poor bacterial balance in the intestines. Too low or too high hydrochloric acid in the stomach can also be a factor. http://www.immunesystemetc.com/Digestion.html

I have been doing a lot of reading also because of Bugsy..... for IBD, and immune-compromised kitties, enzymes and probiotics seems to be generally advised, and I also found this very interesting - I was already in agreement that Rad Cat was easier on his digestive system (I was seeing undigested bones in his poop, so they were passing through :nono:

)

Madison is a more severe case. When he was switched to a raw diet in November of 2008 he improved from day one and
continued to do well until July of 2009. He began vomiting bile several times a week until it got to the point where it was
obvious he was having pain and the raw was no longer working well for him. After several tests and a thorough exam it was
confirmed that Madison has pancreatitis.

There’s no way to tell for sure what brought this on but our best guess after reviewing some other cases is that the larger
bone fragments in the brand of raw that Madison was eating didn’t break down properly and caused a backup of acid in his
GI tract, which then proceeded to aggravate his intestines and then his pancreas. Normally a healthy cat can easily digest
small bone and has no problem breaking it down for elimination. In fact, it’s important to have ground bone in raw food for
calcium and other vital nutrients you can’t get anywhere else. But for an IBD kitty that has a compromised organ system,
there is nothing normal about how their intestines are working. We also feel some of the herbs that are present in that
particular food and are known to upset an IBD kitty’s stomach and may have contributed to the whole issue. Again, there’s
no way to tell for sure. As we all know, IBD is always a diagnosis of exclusions and these upsets are no different. But
unfortunately the initial diagnosis and treatment of the disease does not guarantee that the regimen won’t change. That
inflammatory response is tricky and can change on a dime.

After switching Madison to a more palpable raw food, he seemed to do well with it for a day or two but by then the damage
had already been done and he needed to be put on steroids for the inflammation.http://www.ibdkitties.net/Aboutraw.html

The majority of the food here, or at least 50% will be bone free- either Rad Cat or Nature's Menu, and the rest will have Bone, but Finely ground. Hopefully Hare Today is smaller than NV (it says Finely ground).

Another good examples of how a raw diet directly interferes with the immunesystem - I found this today, with discoid Lupus and even epilepsy:

Pandora, 7 yr old Rottie/LabX, confirmed diagnosis of Discoid Lupus— through biopsy at Texas A&M. The only traditional known treatment is steroids, vit E, zinc, keep out of sun. Before Panny went raw she had lost all black pigment on her nose, eyes, and muzzle. She also had little sores, like boils all over these areas and those areas were always swollen. Panny could not go in the sun at all. Vet wants to put her on steroids, I take a leap of faith and switch to raw. Six months later (4.5 years ago) Panny's Lupus is in remission--no drugs at all. Only change: diet. I also do not limit her sun expsoure.

Bear, 10yr old Border/Collie/LabX. Idiopathic Epilepsy. Bear's seizures were so bad her vet was afraid she would snap her neck and badly injure herself. 5 years ago, I refuse drugs, instead giving acupuncture and change to raw. 4-5 months into raw & continued acupuncture—no more seizures. Bear has not had acupuncture for about 4 years and has remained seizure free. Only change: diet.

Karen
http://rawfed.com/myths/testimonies.html

Treatment

Most cases of pemphigus require the lifelong use of oral corticosteroids, such as prednisone and prednisolone, along with immunosuppressant medications such as azathioprine. Topical corticosteroids and tacrolimus are also used. In cats, chloramphenicol is used in place of azathioprine. After the symptoms are brought into control, the starting dosage can usually be lowered. Because these medications can cause serious side effects, the lowest dose needed to keep symptoms in control is used.

There have been reports of improvement noted with dietary changes, including a raw foods diet. Because sunburn can exacerbate symptoms, sun should be avoided and canine sun blocks are recommended.

Read more at Suite101: Canine Pemphigus: Blisters and Skin Lesions in Dogs | Suite101.com http://elaine-moore.suite101.com/canine-pemphigus-a66098#ixzz1lYP1wXzQ

I have no doubt that done and introduced correctly, a raw diet can be the building block for a strong immune-system, as not only provides optimum nutrition, but also reduces/prevents inflammation, which is cause of many serious degenerative diseases we are seeing today on our pets....

mschauer · Feb 6, 2012

When I was looking for a solution to Coco's chronic loose stools the first thing I found that worked was a product called Holistic Solutions. It is a combo prebiotic, probiotic and digestive enzymes. One of the advertised uses for it was for the prevention of GI upset when transitioning to a new food, especially when transitioning to a raw diet. Coco was on the HS for 6 months before going to raw and she didn't have any GI upset with raw. None of the other had GI issues with raw even thought I didn't give them the HS.

I remember years ago when I was researching commericial raw products several of them recommended using at least a probiotic product during the transition period.

carolina · Feb 6, 2012

mschauer said:
When I was looking for a solution to Coco's chronic loose stools the first thing I found that worked was a product called Holistic Solutions. It is a combo prebiotic, probiotic and digestive enzymes. One of the advertised uses for it was for the prevention of GI upset when transitioning to a new food, especially when transitioning to a raw diet. Coco was on the HS for 6 months before going to raw and she didn't have any GI upset with raw. None of the other had GI issues with raw even thought I didn't give them the HS.

I remember years ago when I was researching commericial raw products several of them recommended using at least a probiotic product during the transition period.

I was thinking about Holistic Solutions to sprinkle over their raw, ans they say it is pretty tasty..... Unfortunately, the first ingredient is Rice Bran..... which I do not like it because of this:

Rice bran and whole rice products are sources of moderately soluble fiber, and contain relatively high amounts of fat. The fiber, fat and/or protein content of the rice bran may alter the excretion of bile acids, predisposing cats to the development of taurine deficiency (8,9). Taurine deficiency was documented in a group of 15 adult Newfoundland dogs that consumed commercial lambmeal and rice diets (10). Researchers at the University of Minnesota have also identified three dogs, all consuming commercial lamb and rice diets, that developed dilated cardiomyopathy and silica urolithiasis (11). In rats, the excretion of fecal bile acids is significantly increased when rice bran is fed at a concentration of 10% (DM) of the diet compared to supplementation with 10% (DM) wheat bran (12). A similar loss of taurine through fecal bile acids may occur in cats fed rice bran, and may increase their dietary requirement for taurine.http://jn.nutrition.org/content/132/6/1745S.full

mschauer · Feb 6, 2012

Carolina said:
I was thinking about Holistic Solutions to sprinkle over their raw, ans they say it is pretty tasty..... Unfortunately, the first ingredient is Rice Bran..... which I do not like it because of this:

Rice bran and whole rice products are sources of moderately soluble fiber, and contain relatively high amounts of fat. The fiber, fat and/or protein content of the rice bran may alter the excretion of bile acids, predisposing cats to the development of taurine deficiency (8,9). Taurine deficiency was documented in a group of 15 adult Newfoundland dogs that consumed commercial lambmeal and rice diets (10). Researchers at the University of Minnesota have also identified three dogs, all consuming commercial lamb and rice diets, that developed dilated cardiomyopathy and silica urolithiasis (11). In rats, the excretion of fecal bile acids is significantly increased when rice bran is fed at a concentration of 10% (DM) of the diet compared to supplementation with 10% (DM) wheat bran (12). A similar loss of taurine through fecal bile acids may occur in cats fed rice bran, and may increase their dietary requirement for taurine.http://jn.nutrition.org/content/132/6/1745S.full

Click to expand...

I wasn't suggesting anyone use the HS product over the long period of time or that they use it at all for that matter. I was just pointing out that using prebiotics and probiotics and digestive enzymes is recognized as useful during the transitioning to new foods even by the food manufacturers.

It's also worth noting that the study investigated the effect of diets of which a large proportion of the total was rice bran:

The objectives of this study were to determine the effect of a purified diet containing 26% full-fat rice bran (DM) on whole blood and plasma taurine concentrations in young adult cats

When using the HS product you only use 1/8 tsp per meal which would make the rice bran a tiny percent of the total diet.

sugarcatmom · Feb 6, 2012

Carolina said:
- introductions, being with new proteins or brands, have to be done slowly - very slowly.

Just to add my experience with raw, I think the speed with which you can introduce new proteins is an individual thing (the whole "every cat is different" mantra). I can switch all 4 of my cats at the drop of a hat. In fact, they get something different for every meal and have had pretty much every protein source available (from llama to ostrich to rabbit to kangaroo - gonna try them on wild boar later today!). I've never experienced so much as an extra burp out of them despite all the switching, but the 2 youngsters were weaned onto raw and the 2 adults have adapted beautifully. So for sure if someone is introducing a raw diet after years of commercial food, or if they have cats with extra-sensitive digestive tracts, then going slow should be the standard. But they may eventually find they can mix things up more rapidly after a while!

feralvr · Feb 6, 2012

Thank you, Laurie, for bringing this to light here on the forum. :hugs:

:heart3: All of this information will be extremely beneficial to anyone with or without an immune compromised kitty and transitioning to any better quality diet. This was a major concern of mine about Pipsqueak - how his immune system functions along side of his digestive tract- and just how the two work side by side and are connected. I learned pretty quickly in transitioning my cats to raw that it has to go much more slowly than just trying a new canned brand of cat food with them. I just thought they already had a properly prepared digestive system to process raw right off the bat :nono:

. I think it is very important to start them on a enzyme/probiotic supplement right away for any food transition - especially going from cooked, highly processed pet food to the species specific natural diet.

I was not sure I was ever going to put Pipsqueak on raw again after my attempt a couple of week's back. I just thought that since he does have a compromised, sensitive immune system - raw would be detrimental to his overall health. Now after reading the research you so generously provided - I know now - 100% that raw IS the best diet for Pipsqueak - but it has to be done very, very slowly and methodically and his digestive tract has to be prepared with the addition of enzyme and probiotic supplementations. All of my cats, the dogs Wilbur and Henry are on this new Pro-Zyme supplement.

One thing I have noticed over the years and have not thought much about it until recently - my attempt at converting my cats to raw - is how incredibly healthy feral cats are. Feral cats eat naturally the way cats were designed to feed. Whole prey - animal flesh. Most of these feral cats have never had dry kibble or canned food in their lives with no supplementation. "IF" ( I say if - because if feral's natural food source is limited - then illness, starvation, etc. will take them and make them weak/sick) the food chain stays plentiful for these feral cats, they seemingly live very healthy lives - they are getting all of their nutritional needs fulfilled naturally and their immune systems thrive and stay strong - which in the long run helps them to survive and stay healthy.

All of this information and research is only making my decision much easier to convert to a raw diet for my cats - or as close as I possibly can. I want their immune systems and digestive systems very, very strong and healthy - like a highly functioning team that were made to work and run beautifully together with the proper natural diet.

Again, Laurie, thank you for your great research on the subject - it is greatly appreciated!!!! The kitties say MEOW MEOW :thanks:

:heart3:

carolina · Feb 6, 2012

Sugarcatmom said:
Just to add my experience with raw, I think the speed with which you can introduce new proteins is an individual thing (the whole "every cat is different" mantra). I can switch all 4 of my cats at the drop of a hat. In fact, they get something different for every meal and have had pretty much every protein source available (from llama to ostrich to rabbit to kangaroo - gonna try them on wild boar later today!). I've never experienced so much as an extra burp out of them despite all the switching, but the 2 youngsters were weaned onto raw and the 2 adults have adapted beautifully. So for sure if someone is introducing a raw diet after years of commercial food, or if they have cats with extra-sensitive digestive tracts, then going slow should be the standard. But they may eventually find they can mix things up more rapidly after a while!

That's precisely what we are talking about..... :nod:

First line from the OP thread:

A number of us with immune-compromised kitties - or kitties with sensitive tummies - are in the process of switching to raw right now.

carolina · Feb 6, 2012

mschauer said:
I wasn't suggesting anyone use the HS product over the long period of time or that they use it at all for that matter. I was just pointing out that using prebiotics and probiotics and digestive enzymes is recognized as useful during the transitioning to new foods even by the food manufacturers.

It's also worth noting that the study investigated the effect of diets of which a large proportion of the total was rice bran:

When using the HS product you only use 1/8 tsp per meal which would make the rice bran a tiny percent of the total diet.

I understand - I just want to bing this up, as this product is also advertised as an enticement during transitions - same as Fortiflora. So I thought it was important to post, as the qtys can hike up :nod: Because of that, I rather have none..... since it is still the 1st ingredient on it.
Your point on the probiotic, prebiotic and enzymes is very well taken :nod:

violet · Feb 6, 2012

I would like to add something here. Please, please, please, everybody, try to understand that I do not want to hurt anybody's feelings. Also, what I would like to share is not against raw feeding. It's just something we should all keep in mind.

I often think of something that happened to a very dear, very much loved little kitty. It's eye opening and, at least for me, it's a warning to not look at any particular diet through rose-tinted glasses.

Holistic vets, including the best, lose their precious pets to cancer like many of us. Everything they know and try to do based on what they know doesn't seem to be good enough. Also, vaccinations, certain types, seem to have a role in the development of certain cancers. (Info on that in Martin Goldstein DVM's book The Nature of Animal Healing)

To get back to what prompted me to write. The kitty I will always remember and cry for was on a raw food diet. He developed oral cancer. To extend his life, his owners had a feeding tube put in. This worked very nicely, but one day, when the owners were still far from ready to say good bye, the kitty somehow ripped out the feeding tube. Putting it back would have required surgery. Because of the cancer that made the feeding tube necessary in the first place, their vet advised against surgery and recommended euthanasia.

I'm crying right now as I write this because what happened to this dear little cat will be a most painful memory for me as long as I live. It hurts to think of what happened to him just as much as it hurts to think of any one of my own babies I couldn't save.

I'm trying to say, please, please, please, everybody, don't think of any particular diet as a cure all, or prevention for all diseases, something that can protect our babies from everything we don't ever want to happen to them. It's not realistic. Realizing this can prepare us for the most painful things we will ever have to face, deal with.

mschauer · Feb 6, 2012

Violet said:
I would like to add something here. Please, please, please, everybody, try to understand that I do not want to hurt anybody's feelings. Also, what I would like to share is not against raw feeding. It's just something we should all keep in mind.

I often think of something that happened to a very dear, very much loved little kitty. It's eye opening and, at least for me, it's a warning to not look at any particular diet through rose-tinted glasses.

Holistic vets, including the best, lose their precious pets to cancer like many of us. Everything they know and try to do based on what they know doesn't seem to be good enough. Also, vaccinations, certain types, seem to have a role in the development of certain cancers. (Info on that in Martin Goldstein DVM's book The Nature of Animal Healing)

To get back to what prompted me to write. The kitty I will always remember and cry for was on a raw food diet. He developed oral cancer. To extend his life, his owners had a feeding tube put in. This worked very nicely, but one day, when the owners were still far from ready to say good bye, the kitty somehow ripped out the feeding tube. Putting it back would have required surgery. Because of the cancer that made the feeding tube necessary in the first place, their vet advised against surgery and recommended euthanasia.

I'm crying right now as I write this because what happened to this dear little cat will be a most painful memory for me as long as I live. It hurts to think of what happened to him just as much as it hurts to think of any one of my own babies I couldn't save.

I'm trying to say, please, please, please, everybody, don't think of any particular diet as a cure all, or prevention for all diseases, something that can protect our babies from everything we don't ever want to happen to them. It's not realistic. Realizing this can prepare us for the most painful things we will ever have to face, deal with.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Surely you're not suggesting that feeding raw caused the oral cancer??? I doubt there is any evidence of that. I've also never heard of anyone claiming that raw feeding is a "cure all" or a "prevent all". It has been shown to cure some disorders and there is some evidence that it *may* prevent some disorders. There might be the odd "overly enthusiastic" raw feeder who puts it more strongly but the vast majority of raw feeders would never make such claims.

carolina · Feb 6, 2012

Violet said:
I would like to add something here. Please, please, please, everybody, try to understand that I do not want to hurt anybody's feelings. Also, what I would like to share is not against raw feeding. It's just something we should all keep in mind.

I often think of something that happened to a very dear, very much loved little kitty. It's eye opening and, at least for me, it's a warning to not look at any particular diet through rose-tinted glasses.

Holistic vets, including the best, lose their precious pets to cancer like many of us. Everything they know and try to do based on what they know doesn't seem to be good enough. Also, vaccinations, certain types, seem to have a role in the development of certain cancers. (Info on that in Martin Goldstein DVM's book The Nature of Animal Healing)

To get back to what prompted me to write. The kitty I will always remember and cry for was on a raw food diet. He developed oral cancer. To extend his life, his owners had a feeding tube put in. This worked very nicely, but one day, when the owners were still far from ready to say good bye, the kitty somehow ripped out the feeding tube. Putting it back would have required surgery. Because of the cancer that made the feeding tube necessary in the first place, their vet advised against surgery and recommended euthanasia.
I'm crying right now as I write this because what happened to this dear little cat will be a most painful memory for me as long as I live. It hurts to think of what happened to him just as much as it hurts to think of any one of my own babies I couldn't save.

I'm trying to say, please, please, please, everybody, don't think of any particular diet as a cure all, or prevention for all diseases, something that can protect our babies from everything we don't ever want to happen to them. It's not realistic. Realizing this can prepare us for the most painful things we will ever have to face, deal with.

I am sorry abut your loss Violet.....
Yes..... Raw is certainly not a cure for all..... No diet is..... IMHO raw is as good as it gets though.....
But Violet, this kitty would have cancer no matter what..... Like babies can be borne with cancer, before even drinking their mothers milk. My little cousin had cancer at 2 years old. She ate right..... obviously didn't smoke.... there was no stress involved..... In her case, genetics played a role. Thank goodness she survived it - but my point is, there are many many causes of cancer - Raw will not be the cure, but not the cause for it either.
No one here is saying that raw is a cure for cancer.
All we are saying is pointing out the relationship of a healthy digestive system and immune-system...... and how a clean, species-appropriate diet might actually contribute for our cats general health.
Nobody here is saying Raw is a cure for all..... I am not sure where you got this idea..... or if I understand your point? :think:

sugarcatmom · Feb 6, 2012

Carolina said:
That's precisely what we are talking about.....

First line from the OP thread:

A number of us with immune-compromised kitties - or kitties with sensitive tummies - are in the process of switching to raw right now.

Click to expand...

Gotchya! Didn't mean to interupt

. Just wanted to say there may come a time, even with the sensitive kitties, when you don't have to switch foods as slowly.

carolina · Feb 6, 2012

Sugarcatmom said:
Gotchya! Didn't mean to interupt . Just wanted to say there may come a time, even with the sensitive kitties, when you don't have to switch foods as slowly.

Not interrupting at all.... :hugs:

Stick around!! The more the merrier :hugs:

just wanted to point that out.....
It is great to know though, that things will get easier as we go.... As things right now are not so easy, and we need that encouragement..... So your post is actually a breath of fresh air.... Sometimes things are pretty touch and go during a this initial transition..... It can be vomiting, constipation, diarrhea..... not eating......... it can be quite draining, you know? :sigh:

EDIT - BTW: Did you notice any changes in health in you cats since their transition to raw? Since we are in the subject? :nod:

violet · Feb 6, 2012

Carolina, to clarify, it was not my loss, the kitty was someone else's dear beloved kitty. The diet didn't cause the cancer but it could not do anything to prevent or help it either. And that is a very important point.

What I'm trying to say here is that I'm very concerned (more concerned than any of you might imagine) about the impression some people might get on this and the regular health forum regarding the benefits of a raw diet. (Example Treats caused Pancreatitis in my 13 month old Himalayan kitty!!!

All I'm saying is I'm very concerned. And please forgive me for voicing this concern.

carolina · Feb 6, 2012

Violet said:
Carolina, to clarify, it was not my loss, the kitty was someone else's dear beloved kitty. The diet didn't cause the cancer but it could not do anything to prevent or help it either. And that is a very important point.

What I'm trying to say here is that I'm very concerned (more concerned than any of you might imagine) about the impression some people might get on this and the regular health forum regarding the benefits of a raw diet. (Example Treats caused Pancreatitis in my 13 month old Himalayan kitty!!!

All I'm saying is I'm very concerned. And please forgive me for voicing this concern.

Again Violet, Sorry for your loss, as your kitty or not, you said you were crying, and regardless of who owned the kitty, you are feeling the loss..... :hugs:

No one here, again is saying that Raw is a cure for cancer..... Or a cure for all.....
Do I believe it is an optimum diet for a cat? Yep, that I do.
Do I believe it helps in keeping the cat's immune-system top notch? Yep I do.
Why? Because cats are carnivores and were made to eat meat - not kibbles, not canned, not processed food.
It is as simple as that - not brain surgery, IMHO.
No need to apologize.....
In the case of the thread you linked..... For a sick cat, the OP should consult his vet - Not you, not me. I do believe, however, once recovered, long term, yes, the best diet for a cat, will always be raw, for the reasons above - my :2cts: - again, not as a vet..... I am not a vet..... you are not a vet..... But a cat is still a cat, still a carnivore, and that we will not change. That is a bottom line that remains IMHO.

mschauer · Feb 6, 2012

Violet said:
Carolina, to clarify, it was not my loss, the kitty was someone else's dear beloved kitty. The diet didn't cause the cancer but it could not do anything to prevent or help it either. And that is a very important point.

What I'm trying to say here is that I'm very concerned (more concerned than any of you might imagine) about the impression some people might get on this and the regular health forum regarding the benefits of a raw diet. (Example Treats caused Pancreatitis in my 13 month old Himalayan kitty!!!

All I'm saying is I'm very concerned. And please forgive me for voicing this concern.

I see. The possible inappropriateness of the suggestion of raw feeding was dealt with in that thread where it should be. I don't see any reason for your "concern" in this thread. I have no doubt that you mean well.

sugarcatmom · Feb 7, 2012

Carolina said:
Sometimes things are pretty touch and go during a this initial transition..... It can be vomiting, constipation, diarrhea..... not eating......... it can be quite draining, you know?

OMG yes, very draining!!! That's how it was with my elderly diabetic guy, who had been eating Science Diet Light kibble

for years and years (and thus, the reason he got diabetes). It took me months just to switch him to canned food. There were countless days of tears of frustration and worry and exasperation, but I'd do it all over again if I had to. Right now he eats about 50/50 raw and canned. I need to leave food out for him to match the long-acting insulin he's on (plus he has CKD and gets nauseous if he doesn't eat for a while), so that's where the canned comes in. But he loves his raw!! Never thought I'd see the day. It sure does my heart good to see him get so excited for his raw meals. He's turning 19 on May 5th.

Carolina said:
EDIT - BTW: Did you notice any changes in health in you cats since their transition to raw? Since we are in the subject?

Well with the 2 kittens (born in my spare room to a feral momma), raw was the first solid food they ate so they're just the epitome of feline perfection, if I do say so myself

. Lean, muscular, incredibly soft coats, boundless energy......I could go on and on. Their mom, who I also still have, has filled out nicely from the scrawny thing she used to be. Thicker, softer, fluffier fur, and as much energy as her kittens. She eats about half raw half canned like Aztec does.

As for Aztec, I have no doubt he would have been long dead if I hadn't got him off kibble. Vets are absolutely amazed that he's had diabetes for 9 years, it's practically unheard of. His insulin dose went from 4.4 units twice a day to 1 unit. He used to shed like crazy and have constant dandruff - now he has soft shiny fur (even though he's become rather lazy about grooming in his old age). There's no way anyone can convince me that kibble is a reasonable diet for any cat.

goingpostal · Feb 8, 2012

LDG said:
I saw on a lot of the dog forums, people in transition were talking about diarrhea or vomiting, and typical responses were that the animal is detoxifying... this just reinforced for me that there were risks to raw that weren't worth the benefit, thinking that was hogwash.
But the more research I did on raw (in debating against it), the more convinced I became it IS what cats need. Now - I'm not so sure that vomiting and diarrhea can be chalked up to "detoxifying."

On this subject, this was part of the reason I was hesitant to switch my dogs to raw, even though the cat and ferrets eat it because they went from kibble/canned to eating anything I threw at them with no real issue, but you hear a lot of vomiting and cannon butt with dogs switching. I used the preymodelraw website and switched my oldest dog, we're 7+ weeks in and had no issues at all. I think to many people either overfeed, or just start throwing too many proteins in at once and also if your dog went from free fed to scheduled they will hunger bile puke because the raw digests so fast. With my cat switching the only puking we had was me figuring out what proteins she cannot eat, or too much rich organ meat, I didn't really go slow on anything, I just offered food and if she ate it, it was in rotation, she is a born again carnivore though and loves her meat, which is fantastic given she cannot handle kibble and canned is 3x the cost. My ferrets took convincing that meat was food, but once that was down they will eat most anything.

The Digestive System - Immune System connection

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