how many of you really believe in an afterlife?

[goldenkitty45]

As an evengelical, I don't like certain "preachers" - those like P. Robertson. But I do admire those like Billy or Franklin Graham.

There's a big difference in the 2 of them - one IMO makes more of a mockery of things - like saying that (Robertson) "if you don't send money now, may God strick me dead"....THAT'S not the way to tell about God/Jesus.

Once you learn the difference in some so-called "religious" people you can see the fake from the truth

Religion is not about "material" things, like the biggest, fanciest temple/church, or who can bring in the most money. Its about teaching and sharing God's word and forgiveness/repentence of sin.

 

[oregon]

[/quote]BTW, I want to agree with .. um.. I think it was Carol (without going back and looking it up cause I'm lazy)... this has been a great thread and I'm really enjoying kicking back and forth ideas with everyone in such a way that I feel has been non-judgemental and very philisophical.[/quote]

hmmm. can't see to get that quouty thingy just right, but its from Heater.
Common denominator of the folks here....cats!

I think there is a cat factor involeved if you like cats you have to be tolerant. They just have their own mind regardless of size and situation. That ol' "stare down the king".
GBW, dog, cheney, guessing he doesn't hunt w/cats (they are too smart for that. Islam is ok w/cats. IMHO only good thing I can say for that cult)

 

[carolpetunia]

Bruce -- I've been trying to think of a way to respond without turning this into a political debate, and I just can't... so maybe we should PM if we want to talk about that subject...?

Lemur -- Yes, you're right about the perversion of religion. I should have clarified that when I say religion, I'm thinking of "organized religion," something administered by others, as opposed to the beliefs of one's own heart.

And oh, what a good question -- whether giving every faith its own separate planet would solve all these conflicts! It makes me think of a wonderful old stand-up routine by Emo Phillips:

__________________


One time I was in San Francisco, walking along the Golden Gate Bridge, and I saw this guy about to jump. So I ran over and said, "Don't jump!"

He said, "Why not? Nobody loves me."

I said, "God loves you!"

He said, "Well... I do believe in God."

I said, "Good! Are you a Christian or a Jew?"

He said, "Christian."

I said, "Me too. Protestant or Catholic?"

He said, "Protestant."

I said, "Me too! What franchise?"

He said, "Baptist."

I said, "Me too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Baptist."

I said, "Me too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."

I said, "Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist or Northern Conservative Reform Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist."

I said, "Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Eastern Region?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region."

I said, "Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."

I said, "Die, heretic!" and pushed him off the bridge.

______________________

 

[lemur 6]

Originally Posted by CatsAreBetter

but aren't they all philosophies?

Yes, religions are philosophies, but philosophies aren't necessarily religions. Atheism is not a religion because atheists do not believe in a god. Agnostic is sort of on the border, but since most agnostics do not outwardly say they believe in a god, it is not a religion under the strictest definition. Neither atheists nor agnostics perform any rituals or ceremonies toward their beliefs either (all religions involve some sort of ritual or ceremony or other, usually it is to "commune" with their god(s)).

Originally Posted by CatsAreBetter

We're the only species that engages in war. The closest thing that comes to it is in the dolphin community, I believe it's when pods vie for territory, but that, imo, falls into the survival category.

Ants wage war. Bees wage war. Certain microorganisms also wage war. It seems most hive/colony based organisms will wage war. Now that I mention it, humans are actually quite hive-like if you think about it.

Originally Posted by oregon

The reason religious faith is under attack, is that at least for the past six years it has been politicized, made racist, punitve and hatefull.

Is it religion that is under attack? Or is it the "heathens" that are under attack by the religious and the "heathens" are simply retaliating? I think this "holy war" has been going on for much longer than just 6 years, try thousands of years.

 

[oregon]

I love that Emo Joke! One of my faves!

 

[mlynn]

I am a Humanist.....leaning more twards secular humanist. I am both an agnostic and an athiest in that I can not say with 100 percent truth that a diety or an afterlife does not exist NOT because I believe it exists but ONLY because it is unable to be proven or disproven. I am an athiest in the fact that I do not find the idea of any known views of dieties or religions logical based on the laws of nature and my understanding of Science and the evolution of the human mind and so therefore I find it impossible.

Either way I don't believe that it has any effect on me personally as an individual if there is or isni't a diety therefore I am a nonthiest and do not care to fallow any religious path. I do however fallow a belief system based on justice and ehticle behavior in an attempt to improve the LIFE of humans and limit suffering.

 

[catsarebetter]

Originally Posted by Lemur 6

Yes, religions are philosophies, but philosophies aren't necessarily religions. Atheism is not a religion because atheists do not believe in a god. Agnostic is sort of on the border, but since most agnostics do not outwardly say they believe in a god, it is not a religion under the strictest definition. Neither atheists nor agnostics perform any rituals or ceremonies toward their beliefs either (all religions involve some sort of ritual or ceremony or other, usually it is to "commune" with their god(s)).


Ants wage war. Bees wage war. Certain microorganisms also wage war. It seems most hive/colony based organisms will wage war. Now that I mention it, humans are actually quite hive-like if you think about it.


Is it religion that is under attack? Or is it the "heathens" that are under attack by the religious and the "heathens" are simply retaliating? I think this "holy war" has been going on for much longer than just 6 years, try thousands of years.

I don't see how agnostic and atheist isn't still a philosophy. While evolution has been proven, and there was, indeed, primordial soup.. there still has not been a fully linked theory from start to finish as to how humans evolved. While I do believe this to be the case.. until it is proven and the evidence is an absolutely hole-free proof, it's still a philosophy to believe that god does not exist or to hover in the middle with "don't know, prove it to me one way or the other". Just because there's not an entire elaborate theory built on these two religions doesn't necessarily mean that it's not a philosphy.

re·li·gion
–noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
this doesn't say only when, it just says especially when

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions. this could go either way, christianity or atheism
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:

Anyway, there's any number of definitions on dictionary.com including one that lists agnostics and atheists as religion.

Ants and bees are territorial... when they 'wage war' isn't it a matter of survival and territory? I gotta tell you, either way, I wish the dratted colonies living at my townhouse would wipe each other out, cause I'm sick of the little twits.

As far as the persecution, I think it's a bit of both. It's a lot like racism, or hatred.. the more it happens the more it's perpetuated and the more it's perpetuated, the more it happens.

 

[lemur 6]

Originally Posted by mlynn

I do however fallow a belief system based on justice and ehticle behavior in an attempt to improve the LIFE of humans and limit suffering.

Who's justice? Who's ethics?

Originally Posted by CatsAreBetter

Ants and bees are territorial... when they 'wage war' isn't it a matter of survival and territory? I gotta tell you, either way, I wish the dratted colonies living at my townhouse would wipe each other out, cause I'm sick of the little twits.

Territory... in old days, usually that was the reason for humans to wage war. It's not purely for survival. Sustainability, potential threat, apparent threat, retaliation, competition, all play a role in how humans and animals wage war.

 

[catsarebetter]

Originally Posted by Lemur 6

Who's justice? Who's ethics?


Territory... in old days, usually that was the reason for humans to wage war. It's not purely for survival. Sustainability, potential threat, apparent threat, retaliation, competition, all play a role in how humans and animals wage war.

The human thought process is much more complex then that of bees or ants, as an example.. a potential threat to their hive is a threat to their survival. While an ant or a bee may *have* to extend out past their original territory because of the expansion of the hive, they don't generally take considerably more than they need. Humans, in the instance of America and the first colonies that forced the Native Americans back into smaller, more restricted areas, our ancestors took so much more than they needed and were wantonly destructive of it once they took it. Animals may engage in some mild form of retaliation.. and I won't go so far as to say they don't, since Noel (the domestic).. can be quite retalitorial.. but they don't do it to the extent that humans do. In any case, what we consider war is far too complex and intricate a reasoning process to be waged by animals. And that's not to say that animals can't reason, because they can, but the majority of them don't have the expansive intelligence to reason out war tactics. There is always going to be a give in take in the world of nature, but I think there's a huge difference between the struggle for survival and waging war. Humans will wage war for an imagined slight between two "lords" living in neighboring territories.. because they don't have the same religion, because two people want the same thing and will blatantly disregard the lives of their subordinates to get it..(usually not their own)..because one wants a fuel supply and another one has it.. because they're afraid of something they don't know..and I'd say most of that falls into the category of non-survival. We don't need fuel sources to survive.. even though it would be horridly inconvenient to not have them..

And.. just as another example and to attempt to put this thread back on topic since we've so blatantly hijacked it.. I don't think animals show any signs of believing in religion, or in an afterlife, but again.. if a higher power exists and created the world, wouldn't all that they created have a place in it?

 

[mister matt esq]

Might as well get this thread going again.

Atheist here. I was born into a Roman Catholic family but always had my doubts. I managed to suppress and compartmentalize those doubts for years until they became impossible to ignore. While I cannot prove that god doesn't exist anymore than I can prove that any other mythical creature doesn't not exist, I see no compelling evidence for a god or gods of any kind.