how many of you really believe in an afterlife?

[oregon]

I agree with you. But Buddhism would be the one exception I would think. And hinduism as well with their cycle of death and rebirth.
so I would say that death and fear of unjustice.
The idea that someone that commits a wrong will find no retribution for it?

 

[carolpetunia]

Dragoriana -- No ma'am, you are not the only one who thinks "original sin" is nonsense! And some people these days are having not baptisms, but "baby dedications," which eliminate the idea that the baby somehow needs to be "cleansed."

Lemur -- Very astute observations on why religion exists. But if we're speaking strictly of religion, not personal spirituality, I think the main reason religion exists is because it's such a perfect tool for controlling the masses.

If you want power, you can say God has given me authority.

If you want money, you can say God wants everyone to tithe to this church I've started.

If you want to persecute the opposition, you can say God says anyone who doesn't believe as we do is going to Hell.

And the easily-led will be thrilled that God is speaking directly to someone they know, and they'll hang on your every word. And those who see through you will say, Well, if it gives those other people comfort to believe this, who am I to tell them otherwise?

This is not to say that there aren't some religious leaders who absolutely believe every word they say, and there may even be some who really are getting their orders directly from God -- I could be completely wrong! But history is overflowing with people who have horribly abused the power they acquired through religion.

 

[goldenkitty45]

I don't believe in more then the one life we have here. But I do believe in Heaven and Hell. Heaven will be more wonderful and awesome then the very best we can imagine here. Can't wait to see it

 

[catsarebetter]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I don't believe in more then the one life we have here. But I do believe in Heaven and Hell. Heaven will be more wonderful and awesome then the very best we can imagine here. Can't wait to see it

And not to dis your beliefs or anything, but this just brings a thought to my mind... if heaven is based on no sin, would it stand to reason that there is nothing sinful in heaven? I'm sort of the opinion that I like some of the sins, albeit none of the really evil ones.. but .. then I consider some things harmless, like drinking alcohol, premarital sex...

Carol: I'm thinking that's pretty on target, but not all-inclusive, of course, of all people who engage in religion... but..I'm thinking that's why there's supposed to be a separation between church and state, to limit the church's and the government's power. I think maybe that's a two way street.

 

[oregon]

God bless the separation of church and state!

 

[catsarebetter]

Well, I used to think that it was to keep the church from having too much power, but.. now I have recently been thinking that it's as much to keep the government from utilizing religion as a political tool.

 

[goldenkitty45]

Cats are Better,

Well, according to the Bible Heaven and the new Earth will be perfect again - the way it was at the beginning before Satan messed it up. So sorry, but the "sins" you like, will not be in Heaven; however it will be so wonderful you won't miss them

 

[catsarebetter]

That's a nice thought, but once you've had them.. I think you'd miss them. Now, if someone never experiences something, then it would be difficult to miss what you never had, but.. I'm just not ready to jump on the no-sex bandwagon...

But seriously..there are things that I like to do, that I find a lot of fun...that I wouldn't want to give that up... even paradise gets to be boring if there's not something entertaining to do. Anyway, I sort of stole that idea from Piers Anthony.. but his book made me think about it. And it would be kind of cool if you got to go to heaven and do the things that you thought were fun in life as a reward for being a good person.

But anyway, since I'm agnostic I don't really believe in a heaven or a hell..I just was thinking about Piers Anthony's theory on that and thinking.. that's kind of true. I'm not mocking the idea of heaven or what it's purported to be.. I'd probably consider it all in a different light if I believed in God.

 

[dragoriana]

Originally Posted by CarolPetunia

Dragoriana -- No ma'am, you are not the only one who thinks "original sin" is nonsense! And some people these days are having not baptisms, but "baby dedications," which eliminate the idea that the baby somehow needs to be "cleansed."

Lemur -- Very astute observations on why religion exists. But if we're speaking strictly of religion, not personal spirituality, I think the main reason religion exists is because it's such a perfect tool for controlling the masses.

If you want power, you can say God has given me authority.

If you want money, you can say God wants everyone to tithe to this church I've started.

If you want to persecute the opposition, you can say God says anyone who doesn't believe as we do is going to Hell.

And the easily-led will be thrilled that God is speaking directly to someone they know, and they'll hang on your every word. And those who see through you will say, Well, if it gives those other people comfort to believe this, who am I to tell them otherwise?

This is not to say that there aren't some religious leaders who absolutely believe every word they say, and there may even be some who really are getting their orders directly from God -- I could be completely wrong! But history is overflowing with people who have horribly abused the power they acquired through religion.

Like most people i was christianied for some reason. And look at me now, i'm as far away from it as i can be. It's highly important for my dads parents because they are roman catholic that all the grandkids get christianed. Personally when i have a child Tristan and i wont do that, and im not going to waste my time arguing with any family members.

 

[pat]

Any one can use the excuse that God or Joe or Dad (fill in the blank) gave them the authority. It has nothing to do though with God, or Joe or Dad...just with that single person or group.

I wish I could speak more eloquently, and usually I can express myself well, but not on this topic. Spirituality, one's relationship with a God (or if your belief is in Gods, in Gods), is not something related to one's political views, not just taught to you by parents, it is something that you will come to (or not) in the course of your life time.

I expect parents to teach their children right and wrong, how to share, how to be self-confident and caring people. I expect them to share what is important to them, and that includes their faith in God, if they have faith.

I do not presume to judge anyone's religion, to say that just one is correct or best. I will say simply that I have strong reasons for my faith in a God, and any mistakes in my understanding of this being, are my own, not a fault of God's

I have only been on this earth just over 50 years, but I am stunned at how under attack faith - *any* faith is. Brilliant, creative, artistic, caring, gentle, dedicated to others, many humans are devout without being the kinds of intolerant, igorant, unable to think for themselves, hating out of fear, unable to accept others who believe differently than themselves that I see used in a blanket way to describe those who are religious - though usually this is applied towards Christians.

I often simply want to ask...where is the tolerance for those who do believe? Tolerance must embrace all of us. All of us.

 

[goldenkitty45]

In Revelations, once this earth is destroyed, and we have the new earth and heaven, there will be no "religion" as its known in this world. There will be no need for it. It will be perfect Paradise at that point.

 

[oregon]

The reason religious faith is under attack, is that at least for the past six years it has been politicized, made racist, punitve and hatefull.
I honestly used to be way more positive about religion, faith and religious people untile 9/11 and, power hungry evangelist, the bushistas.
The ironically idolatrous beliver that gathered for pray ins around the ten commandments set in a federal courthouse.
I have also met a lot of people that say the they are discrimitated against becouse they are christian. But in my experience the only discrimination is meeting someone that has a different opinion and express it.

It is sad becouse I think there are a good number of decent good people out there who belive in god. But sadly it also them who most likely put bush into power.
I am ok w/reading book about believers, I like Ann Lamott's, tried the lahaye/jenkins book and found them hilarious. Probablly not what they wanted.

 

[carolpetunia]

Originally Posted by oregon

God bless the separation of church and state!

Oh gosh! I don't know whether to stand up and cheer for the principle

or fall to my knees in homage to your perfect mastery of the ironic...

 

[carolpetunia]

Pat & Alix wrote: "...I am stunned at how under attack faith - *any* faith is. Brilliant, creative, artistic, caring, gentle, dedicated to others, many humans are devout without being the kinds of intolerant, igorant, unable to think for themselves, hating out of fear, unable to accept others who believe differently than themselves that I see used in a blanket way to describe those who are religious - though usually this is applied towards Christians..."


You are so on target here -- there are many, many people of faith who are not guilty of those "holier than thou" attitudes, and they do get painted with the same brush, and that isn't fair. It happens because the Pat Robertsons of the world are so much NOISIER than the reasonable, rational Christians. They give the rest of them a bad name.

And maybe this is the time to mention... while I am not religious, I do consider myself deeply spiritual. Not the same thing, but it often leads to the same principles, and in fact, I do my best to adhere to most of what Jesus taught. I just don't need him to be divine. Does that make sense?

Oregon wrote: "It is sad becouse I think there are a good number of decent good people out there who belive in god. But sadly it also them who most likely put bush into power."

Yes, exactly so. I know quite a few people who are truly good, kind individuals, charitable, forgiving, tolerant... but because they're churchgoers and they're against abortion and the phrase "family values" sounds good to them, they think they're Republicans! When in fact, the Republican platform stands for everything their good decent hearts would be opposed to. But you can't tell them that... they think you're just attacking their faith.

 

[catsarebetter]

Well, and as I hope that everyone who's been reading/responding to this particular thread sees... I have no issues with what anyone wants to believe, or with religions.. where my problem comes in, is.. well, let's take my son for example.

His adopted parents are raising him to be Catholic, and they are teaching him what they believe to be the right thing. Now, I have no problem with them teaching him a religion. I do think that religion usually supports moralistic behavior, and usually parents who take the time to teach their children a devout faith are spending quite a lot of time with their children and that also instills the ability to make the correct or good choices in his life. And while I don't believe in some of the things they are teaching them, I have to say that I believe my son is a good child.

Now, I had him two weeks ago, and during his visit.. there were so many times that I had to say to him... and why do you think that's wrong? What's different about this situation that makes it wrong from this other situation? Do you think that people should have the freedom to make their own choices? Anyway, without going into specific things.. he was becoming *extremely* judgemental. He had several snide things to say about this or that over the weekend. Most of it has to do with what his religious beliefs were, but I'm absolutely certain that he didn't just learn that on his own. He's only 12.

So, my problem with religion or perhaps it's better said that my issue with *some* people who practice religion is that they're judgemental... and unfortunately for all those who practice quietly, leading their lives as they want to and not judging others.. it's the people who are judgemental and scream and jump and down and condemn others to a fate worse than death for not sharing their beliefs that are heard. If all the world had practictioners of religion who were able to do what the people who have been posting to this thread are doing.. and that's discuss and not become judgemental and condescending and dismissive of other's beliefs..then there would be a lot more tolerance all the way around. Personally, I don't think I'm intolerant at all, but when someone stands and shouts in your face that you're worthless and condemned because you don't have the same beliefs as they do..it doesn't foster a good relationship. There is nothing that says that someone who is agnostic, athiest, or any "left" religion or non-religion, however you want to phrase it, is or would be any less of a humanitarian than someone who is practicing a diety based religion..

To me, in all honesty, and this is probably touching on an iffy subject, but extremists do things like... want to wipe out non-believers and infidels.. hence the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. The people responsible for the attack have a religion. They are in a lot of ways more devout in their daily rituals then perhaps most people I know. If they'd had a live and let live attitude, we wouldn't have had a September 11th. And the people who practice that religion are now often ostracized in this country, regardless of whether they'd ever do something like that. It is, unfortunately, the people who are fanatics that are seen and heard. It's unfortunately a stereotype, much like racial profiling, in my opinion.

Now, in one point of argument/discussion here..spirituality is your personal relationship with what you believe in.. but, spirituality does in my opinion affect what your political beliefs are. Death penalty, abortion, sex education, religious courses taught in schools, less/more separation of church and state.. those are just some (maybe most) of the things that would be affected by your faith or spirituality. There's also a line there that two people (in it's simplist form) have to cross over to fight for what they believe in. Our country is ruled by a voting system, and if a majority votes for the candidate that they believe is best, often this is based on what they believe in, which is fueled by their spirituality. There is almost always going to be discourse between an athiest/agnostic and a Christian, Baptist, well, really, most religions, when it comes down to politics.

I don't know.. I think tolerance is a two way street.. and I can definitely see your point.. but obviously there's tolerance, and this thread, I think, is proof of that. It's just too bad that what this site/community shares isn't more universal.

 

[catsarebetter]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

In Revelations, once this earth is destroyed, and we have the new earth and heaven, there will be no "religion" as its known in this world. There will be no need for it. It will be perfect Paradise at that point.

And just a side note on this, much like my post earlier about Heaven.. Heaven and a perfect Paradise sound wonderful, truly, however.. the idealogy behind what is perfect and wonderful is going to be based on the religion that promotes (for lack of a better word) it. That perfect place isn't going to be the same for me as it is for someone who's Christian. Although, since I'm a disbeliever I guess it doesn't really matter since in theory I won't be allowed in.. and not being snide there... just rambling in my normal mode.

 

[carolpetunia]

Y'know... we may all be crazy cat people, but there's also a lot of good thinking going on here, and some genuine insight. You guys make me proud to be a member of this site.

 

[theimp98]

Originally Posted by CarolPetunia

When in fact, the Republican platform stands for everything their good decent hearts would be opposed to. :

Such as what?

 

[lemur 6]

Originally Posted by CarolPetunia

Lemur -- Very astute observations on why religion exists. But if we're speaking strictly of religion, not personal spirituality, I think the main reason religion exists is because it's such a perfect tool for controlling the masses.

I believe what you speak of is a perversion of religion, and not actual religion. Before someone perverted that religion, it existed in a different form. There is also more than one way of perverting a religion, usually if a religion seems to benefit someone by crushing someone else. Zealous parasitism.

Originally Posted by oregon

I agree with you. But Buddhism would be the one exception I would think. And hinduism as well with their cycle of death and rebirth.
so I would say that death and fear of unjustice.
The idea that someone that commits a wrong will find no retribution for it?

Buddhism is a philosphy, not a religion. Buddhists do not believe in a god, they simply have a way of thought and apply it to the way they live. It's simply a coincidence that many Buddhists believe in reincarnation, and I believe it's due to it's close relationship with Hinduism. Hinduism... you said it, death and rebirth. Death is a major theme in Hinduism.

Fear of "unjustice" is simply another layer and it's not a ubiquitous theme. Not all religions believe in a heaven and hell. Not all religions have commandments or "sin" either.

Anyway... Here's an interesting thought. Lets say we finally break through and find a reliable way of space travel, come up with the technology to terraform new worlds, locate new habitable star systems. Lets say we find a number of perfectly identical planets, enough so that we could assign a planet to each of the religions that exist on the earth (yes even Jimmy Bosquat's own made up religion). And we live like that for oh, several hundred years under a strict condition that we forbidden to contact any other human colonized planet or even acknowledge their existence. Do you think everyone would be happy? Would we finally have universal peace?

It is my belief, that inevitably, someone will change a little thing here and there, tailor the "one true religion" to fit their own needs, and the religion will divide, and divide, and divide, until we end up with the same situation we had on earth. Even among atheists, a theist will undoubtedly spontaneously appear. And there will be conflict, arguments, wars, and death. It will happen on every single planet sooner or later. Yes... grim... we humans are retched things...

 

[catsarebetter]

Well, two points, and I'm again not discounting any religion, but aren't they all philosophies? Every religion is based on a philosphy.. atheism, agnostic, satanism, christianity.. none of them have any proof, so would be theoretical, wouldn't it? The atheist says.. prove to me he exists. The catholic says prove to me he doesn't.. the agnostic says prove to me one way or the other. I mean, in as much as I'm an agnostic, I don't think that any religion, believer or non-believer, has any proof. There are theories, and beliefs, and no matter how devout you are in whichever religion you believe.. it's not a scientific fact, no matter how strongly you believe and know it to be true.. it's only a singular person's personal truth. I know usually that's only applied to god-fearing religion but, honestly, I think that applies to all.

As a second point, I think it's impossible for the human race to exist completely in harmony. There is always going to be discord and some sort of strife. Even if everyone had the same religion, I think you're right in that it would be tailored to meet the individual's needs. The human race, in itself, is a very self-serving race. We're the only species that engages in war. The closest thing that comes to it is in the dolphin community, I believe it's when pods vie for territory, but that, imo, falls into the survival category.

BTW, I want to agree with .. um.. I think it was Carol (without going back and looking it up cause I'm lazy)... this has been a great thread and I'm really enjoying kicking back and forth ideas with everyone in such a way that I feel has been non-judgemental and very philisophical.