hmmm wouldn't touch his primal.

[mschauer]

I left the food down for a bit of time. He just walks away from it or uses his paw to fake burry it.  I just recently started giving them the small chunks of chicken. Do you think this could be it?  He really does like gnawing on the chicken.

If you aren't ready yet to go with homemade I don't think there is reason to give up on the prepared ground raw yet.

You said he would eat the ground if mixed with canned right? Just do that and gradually decrease the amount of canned over a week or two until he is back to eating the raw by itself. And don't feed chunks until you are more prepared for abandoning the ground.

 

[wolcar]

Sweetie, take a BIG, DEEP BREATH.

Several of them, in fact. All of your questions were answered, so clearly you're in panic mode - and I do understand that. It's definitely harder for you than it was for Carolina and I because you're not a meat-eater. But this WILL be OK.
1) As I'm sure you know, nutritional deficiencies happen over time, not overnight. You don't balance your nutritional needs at every meal. So from that perspective, take another long, deep breath. You've got time to work this out.
2) Calcium. Yes, you can give a cat too much calcium. Calcium works in conjunction with phosphorus; these need to be properly balanced. It's not an overnight emergency. Meat is high in phosphorus and has almost no calcium in it. Too little calcium when feeding meat will result in diarrhea or soft poop. Too much calcium when feeding meat will result in constipation. The ratio of calcium to phosphorus (Ca ratio) should be between 1.0:1 and 1.5:1. What's right is an individual thing per cat. The amounts of calcium provided above target a Ca ratio of 1.3:1. If numbers are your thing, there is a thread that discusses the calcium needs, and I posted tables showing how much eggshell OR Now MCHA is needed to achieve various Ca ratios. For most people new to the process, it's more confusing that anything, which is why it's easier to just say "Use 1/32 teaspoon of eggshell powder per ounce of meat," or "Use 3/4 of a capsule of NOW calcium hydroxyapatite per ounce of meat." Half a capsule of NOW calcium hydroxyapatite is roughly a Ca ratio of 1.1:1; 3/4 of a capsule is a Ca ratio of about 1.3:1. My kitties get a little constipated on 3/4 of a capsule of NOW calcium hydroxyapatite; so I use about a half a capsule per ounce of meat. The 1/32 teaspoon of eggshell works. I'm not sure of the difference. Bioavailability of the calcium?

3) Gizzards are considered a muscle meat.
4) Yes, it matters whether something is an "organ" or a "muscle meat" (even if we think of it as an organ). It matters, because the phosphorus content is different, so how much calcium to use is different.
5) Don't worry about secreting organs right now. I provided links to everything. But you can go to a pet store (I don't know what the large chains have, if you have a locally-owned pet store it's more likely to carry what you need) and buy freeze dried liver. The most commonly available is liver, and this is what you need. My local pet store carries the Stewart's Pro-Treat Freeze Dried Liver. You will not be squeamish feeding your kitties (or just Gus) freeze dried liver, and most cats love it. Feed one piece a day for now, when you get it. Nothing drastic will happen to your cats if you don't start them on the FD liver for a little while.
I have to run, I hope this helps!

Well, I went to the store and got chicken breasts and chicken thighs.  I had the butcher chop it up for me - that was wonderful. I also picked up some beef. It's the kind that you use for stew. I hope that is okay to use.  They did not have any of the calcium so I will purchase that online today.  I guess I just have to get organized about it all.  I'm also going to pick up the FD liver.  If it's as easy as giving it to them once a week - that's not a problem at all.  I'm going to go back and re-read everything.  I'm also going to get the taurine as well.

So any meat introduced slowly

calcium determined per ounce of muscle meat

taurine (which I have to pick up but understand isn't completely necessary)

probiotics (which they're already getting).

FD liver 1X/per week for now.

Is that good so far?  If it is, then I'm much calmer now :-)

At the store today I was informed that london broil is turkey. Is this true? I had absolutely no idea. They guy looked at me strangely when I asked him if he had any hunks of turkey meat. lol

 

[wolcar]

Apparently London broil is NOT turkey.  Butcher mislead me or perhaps I misunderstood, most likely the latter. he he

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

The freeze dried liver is to be given once a day, not once a week.  Just one cube.    Here's her quote:  " For liver, Bugsy and Lucky get one cube of Etta Says Freeze Dry liver a day."

Also, any london broil I've ever had is beef, not turkey

.  BUT, they do sell turkey tenderloins, or boneless turkey breasts, which would fit the term "hunk of turkey meat" to me

.  Either of those would be white meat versus the darker thigh meat.  I've never seen boneless turkey thighs in a grocery store, but they do sell turkey legs, which would require cutting the meat off the bone.  Auntie Crazy says it's easy

Glad you are calmer now.  I was like you when I first thought about going Frankenprey, but now that I am ready, THEY aren't

Good luck!  (you'll be fine

)

 

[ldg]

Apparently London broil is NOT turkey.  Butcher mislead me or perhaps I misunderstood, most likely the latter. he he

:lol3: Sorry, that made me laugh. :anon: You'll have to let the butcher know you're new to meat, if you didn't mention that...

Yes, beef can be fed to cats. Mine needed a REAL slow introduction to it, and Sheldon can't eat it, period. All other red meats, he needs to be 50% of the meal (or less). But most cats tolerate it just fine.

And I'm not aware of any "cuts" of turkey. There's breast (white meat), thigh and/or leg (dark meat). Most butchers carry breast, but probably not leg. :dk:

Carolina says you can get all of this stuff from Walmart. Mine doesn't carry most of it, so I guess it depends on where you live. :nod:

******************************

And yes - the freeze dried liver is to be given daily, not weekly. But it's dry, so the only thing that may bother you is the strong smell.

 

[wolcar]

Sorry, that made me laugh.

You'll have to let the butcher know you're new to meat, if you didn't mention that...

Yes, beef can be fed to cats. Mine needed a REAL slow introduction to it, and Sheldon can't eat it, period. All other red meats, he needs to be 50% of the meal (or less). But most cats tolerate it just fine.

And I'm not aware of any "cuts" of turkey. There's breast (white meat), thigh and/or leg (dark meat). Most butchers carry breast, but probably not leg.

Carolina says you can get all of this stuff from Walmart. Mine doesn't carry most of it, so I guess it depends on where you live.

******************************
And yes - the freeze dried liver is to be given daily, not weekly. But it's dry, so the only thing that may bother you is the strong smell.

Ya know, when I was looking at the london broil I was thinking to myself "boy, that doesn't look like turkey."  I didn't get it but then googled it when I got back to work and realized I was right.   I remember you saying that yours needed a slow introduction (or someone had mentioned it), so I portioned it accordingly.  I came home and portioned out all the meats I purchased and labeled them and put them in the freezer. I felt SO much more organized about it all. I have the liver coming tomorrow along with the calcium (daily), so I feel much better about it all - PHEW!!!!  I'll have to check out Walmart b/c where I went only had ground turkey, and of course london broil. lol

What happens to Sheldon when he eats meat?

In theory, could you feed a cat just chicken with the calcium and the FD liver?

 

[carolina]

Ok, here is how you have to work at Wal-Mart. First of, I do not buy pork in there, as the pork they sell is enhanced. It is easy to see- turn the package around and check the sodium levels; their pork will be around 260; it should not be over 70-80.
The chicken: they have different ones; I do not buy the cheap stuff. I buy one that comes in a green package; it says all natural, cage-free, vegetarian fed, etc. It is great stuff!
The turkey comes in a blue package, vacuum sealed- it is turkey breast filets, also awesome stuff.
The lamb: new Zealand leg of lamb, comes in individually packed vacuum sealed filets- this is $$$ but awesome! Also all natural, pasture raised, hormone and antibiotic free, etc. Same brand for the veal, also very $$$.
For the pork, I buy in my natural food store; all their meats are great there.
The hearts and venison I buy at hare today.

 

[princessesme]

Ok, here is how you have to work at Wal-Mart. First of, I do not buy pork in there, as the pork they sell is enhanced. It is easy to see- turn the package around and check the sodium levels; their pork will be around 260; it should not be over 70-80.
The chicken: they have different ones; I do not buy the cheap stuff. I buy one that comes in a green package; it says all natural, cage-free, vegetarian fed, etc. It is great stuff!
The turkey comes in a blue package, vacuum sealed- it is turkey breast filets, also awesome stuff.
The lamb: new Zealand leg of lamb, comes in individually packed vacuum sealed filets- this is $$$ but awesome! Also all natural, pasture raised, hormone and antibiotic free, etc. Same brand for the veal, also very $$$.
For the pork, I buy in my natural food store; all their meats are great there.
The hearts and venison I buy at hare today.

Saving this post!

 

[princessesme]

I've never seen boneless turkey thighs in a grocery store, but they do sell turkey legs, which would require cutting the meat off the bone.  Auntie Crazy says it's easy

You may want to check a few stores, I ended up finding turkey thighs at a store I don't usually go to and they were a great price!

 

[ldg]

What happens to Sheldon when he eats meat?

He eats the meal and almost immediately regurgitates it.

In theory, could you feed a cat just chicken with the calcium and the FD liver?

No.

Ideally, you should have 5 or so proteins in rotation. I have 8, I think (I forgot to include goat in the list, though I don't always have it to feed, they like it). They all have SUCH differing nutrients in them, to ensure your kitties are getting what they need, it's pretty essential to include at least three different proteins - and within those proteins, feed different parts of the animal (thigh vs breast; loin, leg, shoulder, chop, etc.).

At some point in the future, when you have time, you can take a look at the differences in the nutritional content of various meats (raw) and their cuts. The USDA database covers just about anything you'd feed: http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/list

But for instance, chicken thigh (meat only, raw: USDA nutrient database #05096) vs chicken breast (meat only, raw: USDA nutrient database #05062) vs. your london broil :lol3: (which is a beef shank - I used USDA database #13227, "Beef, shank crosscuts, separable lean only, trimmed to 1/4" fat, choice, raw).

mg per 100g

Just examples, not the whole profile....

Thigh

Potassium 245
Sodium 89
Zinc 1.52
Niacin 5.585
B-6 0.445
B-12 (ug) 0.64
Vitamin K (ug) 2.9


Breast

Potassium 370
Sodium 116
Zinc 0.58
Niacin 10.43
B-6 0.749
B-12 (ug) 0.20
Vitamin K (ug) 0.2


Beef shank

Potassium 387
Sodium 63
Zinc 6.94
Niacin 5.74
B-6 0.47
B-12 (ug) 3.33
Vitamin K (ug) Not available for this


Note: I am NOT providing this info because you need to know what's in everything. It's just an illustration to make the point - it's best to rotate a number of proteins, and a number of different parts of the animals within those proteins - because each provides less or more of different nutrients. Just like you can't live on just melons, you need other fruits and veggies. :nod:

 

[princessesme]

Just like you can't live on just melons, you need other fruits and veggies.

Aw dang it.. but I like melons.

I understood why rotating makes sense, but I love your example above! My boyfriend always asks me why we can't just feed chicken and I keep trying to explain, but I may just not be explaining good enough. I think I am going to show him that post so you can see it in numbers.

Wolcar - I don't know if you have Giant Eagle in your part of PA, but check their turkey section every so often. Sometimes, I can only find breast fillets, other times a bunch of drumsticks, but it might be worth seeing if they throw thighs into the mix.

 

[carolina]

I've never seen boneless turkey thighs in a grocery store, but they do sell turkey legs, which would require cutting the meat off the bone.  Auntie Crazy says it's easy

Haven't seen in the market - mainly because my kids don't really like turkey legs...... but you can buy from hare-today https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_48&products_id=294

Boneless turkey thighs, skin removed. No bones, no organs.
Cut into cubes, 2 lb vacuum sealed bags.

$7.08 for 2lbs

It is good and not hard to prepare at all :nod:

The boneless turkey breast I get from MR W. as in Walmart, and it's great

 

[wolcar]

Saving this post!

I'm taking the post with me to walmart! :-)

 

[wolcar]

He eats the meal and almost immediately regurgitates it.
No.
Ideally, you should have 5 or so proteins in rotation. I have 8, I think (I forgot to include goat in the list, though I don't always have it to feed, they like it). They all have SUCH differing nutrients in them, to ensure your kitties are getting what they need, it's pretty essential to include at least three different proteins - and within those proteins, feed different parts of the animal (thigh vs breast; loin, leg, shoulder, chop, etc.).
At some point in the future, when you have time, you can take a look at the differences in the nutritional content of various meats (raw) and their cuts. The USDA database covers just about anything you'd feed: http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/list
But for instance, chicken thigh (meat only, raw: USDA nutrient database #05096) vs chicken breast (meat only, raw: USDA nutrient database #05062) vs. your london broil

(which is a beef shank - I used USDA database #13227, "Beef, shank crosscuts, separable lean only, trimmed to 1/4" fat, choice, raw).
mg per 100g
Just examples, not the whole profile....
Thigh
Potassium 245
Sodium 89
Zinc 1.52
Niacin 5.585
B-6 0.445
B-12 (ug) 0.64
Vitamin K (ug) 2.9
Breast
Potassium 370
Sodium 116
Zinc 0.58
Niacin 10.43
B-6 0.749
B-12 (ug) 0.20
Vitamin K (ug) 0.2
Beef shank
Potassium 387
Sodium 63
Zinc 6.94
Niacin 5.74
B-6 0.47
B-12 (ug) 3.33
Vitamin K (ug) Not available for this
Note: I am NOT providing this info because you need to know what's in everything. It's just an illustration to make the point - it's best to rotate a number of proteins, and a number of different parts of the animals within those proteins - because each provides less or more of different nutrients. Just like you can't live on just melons, you need other fruits and veggies.

This is a fantastic illustration and your point makes complete sense to me.  Deficiencies of any kind take a bit to present, correct? So, I can take my time introducing the new proteins?  I only have three proteins in my fridge, well, 2 proteins and a different part of the one.  But it's mostly chicken breast. It was on sale :-) 

I'm going to try and introduce beef to them in very small quantities either later today or tomorrow. They've had the chicken for a couple of days now (almost a week).

Question about all the stuff you add to their meals.  Do you add most of it AS your feeding them or can you add it when you portion it out and freeze it?  Currently I add their probiotic while I'm feeding them. Once the calcium gets here is that something that has to be added at the time of feeding. I think I read in a previous post that you can put the taurine in before you freeze it. 

I was able to add 1/2 ounce of primal to Gus' food smooshed up real good and mixed in with the chicken and he did eat it this morning.  He was leary but he ate it.

 

[ldg]

Question about all the stuff you add to their meals.  Do you add most of it AS your feeding them or can you add it when you portion it out and freeze it?  Currently I add their probiotic while I'm feeding them. Once the calcium gets here is that something that has to be added at the time of feeding. I think I read in a previous post that you can put the taurine in before you freeze it. 

Interesting question! I add it all at the time of feeding. But I don't see why it can't be added and frozen with the meals. I mean - people feeding ground food add it all when they make the food and freeze it. :dk: I guess my only worry would be how much sticks to the container? And if you plan on including salmon or krill oil as the omega 3, then I think you need to add a little vitamin E if you freeze it, to prevent oxidation? :dk: But I can't imagine freezing does any harm to eggshell or freeze dried bone. The taurine is water soluble, so if there's any "juice" in the container, it does need to be added to their dishes, but freezing does not degrade the taurine. Of course - I don't add it to each meal, I use it at one meal every-other-day. :dk: I think Carolina uses more, and feeds at one meal a day? I'm not sure how much those who make home made ground use (or how much it would work out to per ounce).

The probiotic I would continue to add when fed. :nod:

And yes, it's BEST to introduce new proteins very slowly. :nod:

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

) 

I've never seen boneless turkey thighs in a grocery store, but they do sell turkey legs, which would require cutting the meat off the bone.  Auntie Crazy says it's easy

You may want to check a few stores, I ended up finding turkey thighs at a store I don't usually go to and they were a great price!

BONELESS turkey thighs??????  I must find these!  (not for the kitties, but for ME

)  Well, maybe for the kitties some year, if I can ever get my act together and train them to like Frankenprey

 

[carolina]

Because much water is lost from the meat, and taurine is water soluble, as Laurie said, I rather add it at meal times.... I probably way overdo it.... But unless the meal is heart, I just add it it every meal 1/16 tsp.
Imho, if you are feeding chunks , the best way to do it is to supplement it at feeding time.... A lot of water is lost, and imho it will wash out the supplements. You can't guarantee the kitty will always drink all that water, and if they do, they might get full and not eat all the meat. Has happened to me. :dk: not much control that away..... You can try, but.....

 

[wolcar]

So my calcium and freeze dried liver came today. I gave them one bit of the liver each - they LOVED it.  I'm guessing I'm going to have to hide the container. My boys are notorius for breaking into containers.  So just one bit of chunk per day?  I guess I can replace their pounce treat with these, huh?  he he Ulysses is scampering around the house looking for the container right now. They are so food driven I should try and train them to do tricks.

Okay, so 1/2 -3/4 capsule of the calcium per ounce of meat.  I guess it will be easy to just split the capsule between the two of them right now. I give them about 1/25-1.5 ounce per meal 3x/day - of that about 1 ounce is raw chicken (right now) and some primal for the rest. Does that sound good?

On the packages I didn't see anything saying any of these had to be refrigerated. Just confirming that???

 

[wolcar]

Okay, I think I may have just confused myself (at least I'm not in panic mode)  while reading over this thread again.  If I give the freeze dried liver once a day do I have to give the calcium supplement?

I got the freeze dried liver and it's divided into these little treat sizes. Is one of them enough? 

I gave each cat a medium size peice of beef tonight. They LOVED it. Gus also ate the .5 ounce of primal mixed in with his chicken and beef peice. Right now I have the chicken cut up into kind of small peices.  Should I gradually increase the sizes of their chunks?

 

[wolcar]

Okay, I think I've unconfused myself.  The liver is the secreting organ, correct?  Which means to answer my own question I should still give them the calcium because that is for muscle meat, correct?  At some point I just know I'm going to get all of this. It's like my algebra class in 8th grade...at one point it just all made sense.