Help, please! Throwing up breakfast and more.

[carmina piranha]

Hi, Everyone:

I just joined the site, which I found as I searched for more raw-feeding info.  I had to laugh when I read mention of the poop-o-meter, beause we hadn't been calling it that, but we sure knew what it meant!

I thought we were doing fine in our raw transition, but this morning we had a wobble, and maybe you can help me figure it out.

Background:

We have one adult cat, 2 yrs old, 11lbs.  (Carmina Piranha!)
We're fostering kittens for a local rescue organization.  All 3 are siblings, part Maine Coon, one girl and two boys, and we're adopting the girl.  They're 7 months old, and weigh 9.5 or 10 lbs.  Yes, tiny little kittens!  

Their chronic pudding-poo has been fixed by first the "quiet diet" (cooked chicken) and now raw.  This is week 2 of all-raw.  But...

Yesterday one kitty's poop wasn't perfect, pretty much blobby in the litter box.  Same thing this morning.  Jackson is the most sensitive, but I don't know whose it was.  And today Jackson threw up his breakfast, and didn't want any food  later, either.

Possible causes:

Today is day 2 of giving mostly organs for breakfast.  Some kitties had not been eating all their organs (we grind everything except the organs, which we chop) and I thought if I did this, they'd eat them better.  Sort of yes, but yesterday Jackson was reluctant, and today he refused.  But when I added parmesan cheese today, he ate most of them.  It was one ounce of almost all organ per kitty.  He has had Parm before, when we started on cooked chicken.

I know, but hadn't experienced, that sometimes too long a gap between meals can cause regurgitation--does the amount of liquid help indicate it is a stomach acid problem?  And, should that kitty be ready for food after that?  It's hours later and he still doesn't want food (no organs).  There was much more liquid in the barf than he got in his food.

One more factor, at least regarding the poop-o-meter:
We stopped feeding them dry food around Xmas.  But, close to a week ago, they ferreted out a forgotten sample baggie of dry food, and I assume all 3 kittens got some.  I expected a bad "outcome," but we didn't get it.  Could it have taken THAT LONG to get throught the intestines and affect the poop?  Or is the dry-food-incident unrelated?

Thanks for any help you can offer!
 

 

[carolina]

Hi, Everyone:


I just joined the site, which I found as I searched for more raw-feeding info.  I had to laugh when I read mention of the poop-o-meter, beause we hadn't been calling it that, but we sure knew what it meant!


I thought we were doing fine in our raw transition, but this morning we had a wobble, and maybe you can help me figure it out.


Background:


We have one adult cat, 2 yrs old, 11lbs.  (Carmina Piranha!)

We're fostering kittens for a local rescue organization.  All 3 are siblings, part Maine Coon, one girl and two boys, and we're adopting the girl.  They're 7 months old, and weigh 9.5 or 10 lbs.  Yes, tiny little kittens!  


Their chronic pudding-poo has been fixed by first the "quiet diet" (cooked chicken) and now raw.  This is week 2 of all-raw.  But...


Yesterday one kitty's poop wasn't perfect, pretty much blobby in the litter box.  Same thing this morning.  Jackson is the most sensitive, but I don't know whose it was.  And today Jackson threw up his breakfast, and didn't want any food  later, either.


Possible causes:


Today is day 2 of giving mostly organs for breakfast.  Some kitties had not been eating all their organs (we grind everything except the organs, which we chop) and I thought if I did this, they'd eat them better.  Sort of yes, but yesterday Jackson was reluctant, and today he refused.  But when I added parmesan cheese today, he ate most of them.  It was one ounce of almost all organ per kitty.  He has had Parm before, when we started on cooked chicken.


I know, but hadn't experienced, that sometimes too long a gap between meals can cause regurgitation--does the amount of liquid help indicate it is a stomach acid problem?  And, should that kitty be ready for food after that?  It's hours later and he still doesn't want food (no organs).  There was much more liquid in the barf than he got in his food.


One more factor, at least regarding the poop-o-meter:

We stopped feeding them dry food around Xmas.  But, close to a week ago, they ferreted out a forgotten sample baggie of dry food, and I assume all 3 kittens got some.  I expected a bad "outcome," but we didn't get it.  Could it have taken THAT LONG to get throught the intestines and affect the poop?  Or is the dry-food-incident unrelated?


Thanks for any help you can offer!

 

An all organ meal, or mainly organ meal will definitely give you soft, if not squishy poop. So.... that's your answer right there.....
The kibbles, I would say, unrelated.....
And the vomiting, could either be a fluke, eating too fast, or going too long in between meals.... When Bugsy vomits due to acid/going too long in between meals, it is pretty much all liquid.... and quite yellow.... usually soon before the next meal.
Have you gone through this thread? It has GREAT info in it!! http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread

 

[p3 and the king]

I would advise you to ask your vet.  They will give you the real facts.  Because they are not biased against one thing or another.  That is your best bet.  Please seek the answers from a professional.  Good day and I hope your kitty feels better!

 

[carolina]

I would advise you to ask your vet.  They will give you the real facts.  Because they are not biased against one thing or another.  That is your best bet.  Please seek the answers from a professional.  Good day and I hope your kitty feels better!

Unless it is a Holistic vet with experience in raw feeding, that won't do a thing besides emptying the OP's wallet IMHO

To the OP:

Do not overdo the organ meat! Organs are incredibly nutrient rich and are a necessary component of an appropriate raw diet, since these are a vital source of vitamins and minerals for your pets. Too much organ meat can lead to loose stools and a bout with diarrhea (which clears up quickly when the next meal comes through).http://rawfed.com/myths/feedraw.html

About the vomiting:
http://www.nomorevetbills.com/qa/
http://www.pet-grub.com/part3/how_to_prevent_vomiting_when_feeding_natural_homemade_pet_food

Things you can do if this persists: Give them snacks in between meals (this helped Bugsy a whole bunch - eliminated the problem, actually), and add digestive enzymes t their food - I use Prozyme :nod:

 

[p3 and the king]

It doesn't costs anything to call and ask someone.  And you know better than a professional?  OK good for you!

 

[carolina]

It doesn't costs anything to call and ask someone.  And you know better than a professional?  OK good for you!

Look....
The OP came here for help - and I am telling her what I know - and these things DO happen when feeding raw.
It does no good going to a vet who has no experience with raw feeding - that is true. I am not telling the OP to not go to the vet.... However, IMHO, this problem can be easily solved by adjusting the diet..... Her cats are not sick.... she just fed too many organs.... ok?

Now.... If she wants a vet to help her..... A vet with knowledge in raw feeding will certainly help her in ways that a regular vet would not be capable of doing so. This is a very simple matter to understand.
Please, let's not make this between you and I - this is to help the OP. Adjusting her diet will do far more than immediately opening her wallet with someone who doesn't have the knowledge. That is all.
And yes, I will probably know more about this than a vet who doesn't feed raw, no question about it. More than a holistic vet? No.

 

[p3 and the king]

He may have a sensitive system like my Phoebe.  There are certain meats she cannot eat.  (Something to do with the acid amount...)  Anyway, my vet was able to point out meats that are good for a cat with a sensitive system.  Turkey and lamb being two of them.  Chicken is good, too.  Beef is a big no no for Pheebs, though!!  So that might help?  I didn't see what type of meat you are feeding.  Another thing he told me was eggs.  It's the only thing mine eat UNcooked.  But they love it and it really helps with digestion and keeps their coats looking spectacular!  Fresh eggs... I should point that out.  Processed would probably not be good... But, my neighbor has chickens and I get fresh eggs everyday.  I often give them one for their breakfast (about once a week).  I just beat it like I am going to make scrambled eggs for myself. Oh and I give them the yolk... Not the whites.   

 

[goingpostal]

Organ meat is very rich, it will cause loose dark stools if you feed a lot or the animal isn't used to it, best to feed small amounts or with bone in meats, could be what caused the vomiting as well, my cat has puked when I fed too much heart/liver at once.  It always comes right back up within a few minutes if that's the cause. 

 

[feralvr]

It doesn't costs anything to call and ask someone.  And you know better than a professional?  OK good for you!

No one is claiming to be a vet or that they know better than a pro. Please keep comments kind and courteous not argumentative. What Carolina is saying, is true. Most Western Medicinal Veterinarians are not educated well on Nutrition, other than the basics. And most are in bed with Hill's - one of the biggest pet food manufacturers in the country. Vet Nutritional Classes are given by Hill's reps at several different facilities. They even have instructors at Veterinarian Universities. A Holisitc Vet is much more knowledgeable on the overall nutrition of dogs/cats. The first thing a Holistic Vet will ask you is...... What are you feeding your cat/dog?

Now - since the OP is feeding raw - then I would agree with Carolina - go to a Holistic Vet who knows about species-specific raw feeding :nod:

 

[furryfriends50]

I like to feed the organ meat (liver/"other secreting organ") along side bone-in meals.  That way, they don't get mushy stools from the organs, as the bone-in stuff evens it out again. 

Mine will occasionally end up with diarrhea if they eat something bad - Mitch especially gets into all sorts of things - anything that falls on the floor and looks edible to him is fair game.  When I notice that he is a bit "off" I'll give him probiotics for a few days and that seems to always do the trick.

 

[carmina piranha]

Thank you for your replies, every one of you!  Since the kittens had pudding poop for 3+ months without the rescue head people, or the vets who saw them worrying (although I think they should have, and should have guided this diet change that we instead started on our own--but anyway...) , I wouldn't bring them to the vet over a little soft stool or a little puking--unless Jackson was acting lethargic.  Tito threw up a few times back when they ate canned food, because he ate it too fast.  Cats throw up sometimes, and it's a sign, but not an emergency (I think).  If you think I should worry more about this, or if I ever seem too blase' about something you think is vet-worthy, speak up, please!

The cats are eating chicken everything right now, since we know for sure they have sensitive systems, and can eat chicken.  I should clarify by saying the organs they had at breakfast are not liver; since that's mushy, we grind that with the rest of the meat.  So it was whatever else they have in the "chicken organs" bin at the meat place: kidneys, for sure.  I scoop them out, but he cuts them up.  I'm a 20-years vegetarian, diving into the vats of meat in the meat-packing district in order to save my kitties from unhappy intestines!  

Regardless, I think I'll go back to mixing organs into every meal, in case having a whole snack of organs throws them off as some of you suggested.

Jackson did have a lot of yellow liquid in his puke, so I think the long fast helps explain his sick.  Thanks, Carolina!

However, since he kept refusing food, I think he was also noticing that the food was getting old.  We got tired of always warming up half-frozen food, or hacking away at a solid block 'cause we forgot to put it in the fridge 2 days ago, so the last time we made food we put 3 day's worth in one bin, right into the fridge.  I thought I was just getting bothered more and more by that raw chicken smell, but really, it was that the chicken was smelling more and more!  I thawed fresh stuff this evening, and he happily ate it.  So, we won't try that 2- or 3-day trick again.

No poopies this evening by anyone, but I'll take it that "no poops is good poops."

Thanks again!
 

 

[ldg]

I'm always so impressed when vegetarians are willing to feed raw. But ultimately, it's about the best health for everyone, I guess. :heart3:

I agree - vomiting or diarrhea can be a part of the process - but if there's not other behavioral problems that would indicate illness, best to adjust the diet and see what happens with the poop-o-meter :lol3: or if the vomiting stops. :nod:

Hope things stay nice and calm with the change in plan!

 

[carmina piranha]

Bad news!  Jackson just threw up again.  He had a couple of small meals without throwing up (that we saw), but he just threw up the freshly-thawed chicken mixture he ate an hour ago.  He's still racing around acting normal, but I'm worried.  I need to go do some reading, and see if I may want to give him some cat kaopectate (the pectin helps nausea, I know) or if I should go buy some turkey.  Any votes for one or the other?  I still don't feel like it's a vet thing yet...

LDG, I honestly think I wouldn't have got a cat if I'd known I'd be swimming in raw meat!  But once you love a creature, you adapt.  We are still working on ways for me to feel like the kitchen isn't completely contaminated.  Step one is to actually stop recontaminating it at every mealtime!!!!

 

[carolina]

Bad news!  Jackson just threw up again.  He had a couple of small meals without throwing up (that we saw), but he just threw up the freshly-thawed chicken mixture he ate an hour ago.  He's still racing around acting normal, but I'm worried.  I need to go do some reading, and see if I may want to give him some cat kaopectate (the pectin helps nausea, I know) or if I should go buy some turkey.  Any votes for one or the other?  I still don't feel like it's a vet thing yet...

LDG, I honestly think I wouldn't have got a cat if I'd known I'd be swimming in raw meat!  But once you love a creature, you adapt.  We are still working on ways for me to feel like the kitchen isn't completely contaminated.  Step one is to actually stop recontaminating it at every mealtime!!!!

Instead of that, try giving him Prozyme - (Digestive Enzymes) and little snacks throughout the day....... see if that helps..... :nod:
If he continues to throw up..... then yes..... you might want to check in with a holistic vet :nod:
BTW - if he looks ok, he might be able to eat something soon after throwing up.... Freeze dry chicken usually works well as treats.....

 

[ldg]

Aw, I'm sorry! I didn't read back through the thread, but are you giving them any probiotic? You might want to try that too. We give ours an acidophilus + bifidus we pick up at the health food store.

And yeah, I can see it would be a huge adjustment.

 

[carmina piranha]

Hi, folks.  Things may be better!  I went on a 5-mile walk and got; freeze-dried chicken, enzyme stuff for cats, chicken baby food and some ground turkey.  I had so many suspicions going all over the place: was today's sick because he gulped his food?  Is he refusing more food because it smells like what he threw up?  Is he intolerant of chicken now? 

So, I measured .5 ounce of ground turkey, put the enzymes on it, and added a dab of baby food (yum!) to ensure he wanted to eat it.  I brought him into a closed room with me to make sure he didn't feel the need to eat too fast.  He loved it!  Then I gave him .5 oz more, then locked him in the bathroom with me for my long hot bath, (eventually 5 miles will not be a long walk!  But today it was) so I would know for sure if he kept the food down.  He did!

I hadn't really been giving them a probiotic, but once a week or so give them a dab of plain yogurt.  Maybe I'll increase that, since the yogurt didn't seem to cause any tummy problems.

 

[carolina]

Kitties on raw here get probiotics every day, and are now on enzymes every meal :nod:
for that to work!!

 

[ldg]

Aw, great news! Let's hope it stays that way. :cross: And vibes!

About the probiotic... I'm pretty sure that even an entire human serving of probiotics doesn't have the same amount of active cultures that just one little capsule of supplemental probiotics does. A dollop definitely doesn't. :lol3: The minimum you're looking for is 5 billion - a child size "serving." On the advice of our holistic vet (a DVM additionally trained in Chinese meds and nutrition), our Chumley, who had bad GI problems when we rescued him, gets a human dose every day - that works for him (2 capsules - 20 billion active cultures). The others get half a capsule 2x a day (5 billion active cultures at a time).

 

[feralvr]

SO glad to hear things are improving. I think the probiotic in addition to the enzyme supplement is well advised and we all are starting our kitties on these supplements for raw feeding Continued

 

[carmina piranha]

I'm back with an update, and thank you again for your help, everyone.  Extra-special thanks to LDG's friend, who consulted with me by phone!  Things are getting back on track, hooray!

Problems turned out to be:
1. The scales at the meat shop (for shoppers) suck, and I bought too much organ.  (I looked at the sales receipt for actual weight)  Liver percentage in the mix was way high.  Which can mean loose stool, and tasting yucky!  We made more mix, with NO liver for the moment.  We can later add some older (frozen) stuff to even out the percentage.
2. Feeding kidneys all at once, almost completely plain.  Too much kidney (or other organ) at once is too much for some kitties, probably Jackson.
3. Or too long a wait between meals.  Now hubs does a meal before he goes to work, and I only have to do one!  Yay!
4. Jackson's food behavior is weird, and we're experimenting with that.
5. I should check in with a forum like this, or my local group, before I do a change like an all-organ meal.

It _looks like_ Jackson threw up the first time because of too much organ, or too much stomach acid, or both.  And he stayed queasy--and the food had too much liver--so he threw up a couple more times.  And decided he didn't want any more food, ever!  

The additives/treats suggested work maybe once, then not again.  Pure chicken and pork did not tempt him.  Tuna juice only SORT-OF worked once!   EVO 95% chicken worked more than once, thank goodness!  Switching the food from a plate to a bowl worked sometimes.  Or from the bowl to a plate.  Or if it was ANOTHER cat's food, sometimes he'd  want it.

The things that make the biggest difference:
1. Mix without any liver in it!  
2. Having his bowl well-warmed by hot water, so his warm food did not cool off
3. Nupro nuggets, aka "kitty crack"
4. Feeding him in the crate, to minimize his ADD-like distraction. ("I'm soo hungry!  Yay, food!  Oh, but I heard a noise!  I think I'll go look in the hallway...")  Except sometimes he won't eat until I let him out, and hover to keep the other cats away.  Working on that.

I stopped at a random small pet store for more EVO, and looked for Forti-Flora.  They knew about it, but had different enzyme products.  When I explained it's supposed to attract cats to food, they handed me the Nupro, and said I could return it if it didn't work.  

The Nupro includes fish meal, and it makes the food smell more like canned food.  Yum, fishy excitement!  The nuggets are a little larger than a peppercorn, and I crush just one into Jackson's food.  The other cats want it, except the grown-up cat, who hates canned food (probably the fishy smell that the others love!)  The kittens keep rubbing their teeth on the jar, hoping to get it open.

The other ingredients are kelp, flaxseed, enzymes, liver, lecithin, acidophilus--and garlic.   Yikes!  But, the ASPCA site says not to give the cat any more garlic than they get in cat food and treats.   So, a small amount is acceptable, apparently (garlic has less thiosulphate than onion.)  And the suggested amount of Nupro is about a teaspoon per day, while I'm doing maybe 1/4t per day.  So I guess I feel ok with this amount of garlic.  Especially since it makes him want food!  (He lost half a pound because of this situation, I want him eating again!)   What are your thoughts?