Let us know..
-
Too many ads? Join our community of cat lovers now to reduce ads by 90%! Click here to join for free!
Help! Kitty with intestinal lymphoma won't eat!
- Thread starter krashballz
- Start Date
- Status
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #62
I'm sitting at the ER with Krash, and I'm so upset right now. I have no idea what's going in with my kitty. They've done a mini CBC panel and his potassium levels are really high. Nothing else seems abnormal, but they want to sedate him for more testing, & keep him overnight and charge me $1300. And I don't even understand why they want to keep him. This is awful. I don't feel like these people are doing my cat or me any good at all right now. And I've stressed him out for nothing.
for you and mega 
for Krash.
Thinking about you and Krash. Hope everything is okay.
Oh no! Just read the update.
They may have wanted to keep him overnight for an IV, depending on his state. Please keep us posted. Continued vibes for Krash!
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #66
Well, they re-ran the mini CBC and it came back with normal potassium levels. They've ruled out a seizure, but they say he has a heart murmur. The thought maybe he had a blockage, even though I told them he had just peed normally an hour prior. So they sedated him, got a urine sample, and they just called to let me know the oncologist doesn't think it's necessary to send it out :/ So they sedated him & got a sample for nothing and tacked on another $75 for it. Now he's having more trouble getting over the sedation than he was having to begin with. Then, after everything else, they decided he was dehydrated like I had been telling them from the start. They gave him sub-q fluids and let me bring him home.
His oncologist called this morning and said she wants me to start giving him sub-q's at home now. I'm nervous about it. I know a lot of you do this too. How hard is it to do?
The good news is that after everything, he still ate first thing when we got home. So maybe we're past THAT hump. How many humps are there going to be? I feel horrible for doing all this to him. I've got some serious thinking to do.
Thank y'all for the good vibes and concern. Krash is resting now, & I've been up for over 24 hours, so I'm gonna go rest.
His oncologist called this morning and said she wants me to start giving him sub-q's at home now. I'm nervous about it. I know a lot of you do this too. How hard is it to do?
The good news is that after everything, he still ate first thing when we got home. So maybe we're past THAT hump. How many humps are there going to be? I feel horrible for doing all this to him. I've got some serious thinking to do.
Thank y'all for the good vibes and concern. Krash is resting now, & I've been up for over 24 hours, so I'm gonna go rest.
If they made the decision not to send out the urine sample, then they should not charge you for it. I would definitely argue that and have it deducted from your bill.
I give Sebastian 100ml of fluids at home at least every other day. This week it has been every day. I don't have a weird phobia of needles, so it doesn't bother me. I even use the larger needles so that the fluid flows quicker and we're over and done in 5 minutes. And, of course, Sebastian is a more laid back cat and doesn't give me any trouble. My vet trained me to do it right in the examination room with Sebastian there. They didn't emphasize warming up the fluids, but I found that it is very important to warm up the fluids in a bowl of really warm water for 15 minutes.
Poor Krash. I know this is emotionally draining for you. How is he overall? Did the weird episode last night not seem to phase him (as much as it frightened you)? Is he eating, drinking, moving around? Krash, unfortunately, has cancer.
There are going to be ups and downs. Sometimes the chemo works, sometimes it doesn't. Just be in tune with your boy and think about what's best for him. You'll know what to do.
I give Sebastian 100ml of fluids at home at least every other day. This week it has been every day. I don't have a weird phobia of needles, so it doesn't bother me. I even use the larger needles so that the fluid flows quicker and we're over and done in 5 minutes. And, of course, Sebastian is a more laid back cat and doesn't give me any trouble. My vet trained me to do it right in the examination room with Sebastian there. They didn't emphasize warming up the fluids, but I found that it is very important to warm up the fluids in a bowl of really warm water for 15 minutes.
Poor Krash. I know this is emotionally draining for you. How is he overall? Did the weird episode last night not seem to phase him (as much as it frightened you)? Is he eating, drinking, moving around? Krash, unfortunately, has cancer.
Giving sub-q fluids is an acquired skill, but before that did you get a copy of his bloodworks? Maybe to chase around and get copies of old bloodworks from your vet as well. Looking for a confirmation of kidney problems for a need to give fluids on a regular basis - or does he just need fluids because he is dehydrated now?
If he is in early stage of kidney problems, he will need to get bloodowrks done every few months to compare against previous ones and establish a routine of how much fluids he should be getting. Even when cats do not have kidney disease, they get perked up from getting a hydration. Kinney never had KD, but did get one hydration when he was in the ER - it perked him up a lot.
However to beware of giving fluids to a cat with a heart murmer. It is a fine line to give just enough fluids, but not so much as to overwelm his lungs. I would quiz the bloodworks that he is indeed with kidney problems. High urea and bun numbers - also potassium (L) and phosphorus (H) wrong. The heart, lungs, and kidneys work in concert together, so if heart not functioning exactly right fluids can build up and not be eliminated as fast.
Your vet can sell you an initial bag of Ringer's solution plus the line set (tubing). Usually the needles are free - ask for very fine needles - there are different widths. Warm up the entire bag of Ringer's by floating in hot water on the stove and test on wrist like baby bottle. You need a little practice to get the needle under his skin, but it can be anywhere - on back of neck is common place or I have used abdomen also. They say to practice on an orange or lemon if you have never given a needle.
If he is in early stage of kidney problems, he will need to get bloodowrks done every few months to compare against previous ones and establish a routine of how much fluids he should be getting. Even when cats do not have kidney disease, they get perked up from getting a hydration. Kinney never had KD, but did get one hydration when he was in the ER - it perked him up a lot.
However to beware of giving fluids to a cat with a heart murmer. It is a fine line to give just enough fluids, but not so much as to overwelm his lungs. I would quiz the bloodworks that he is indeed with kidney problems. High urea and bun numbers - also potassium (L) and phosphorus (H) wrong. The heart, lungs, and kidneys work in concert together, so if heart not functioning exactly right fluids can build up and not be eliminated as fast.
Your vet can sell you an initial bag of Ringer's solution plus the line set (tubing). Usually the needles are free - ask for very fine needles - there are different widths. Warm up the entire bag of Ringer's by floating in hot water on the stove and test on wrist like baby bottle. You need a little practice to get the needle under his skin, but it can be anywhere - on back of neck is common place or I have used abdomen also. They say to practice on an orange or lemon if you have never given a needle.
Wow, so much has happened since I last looked at this thread
. But at least he is home now and feeling somewhat better
What about your trip? Aren't you supposed to be leaving today for 5 days?
Just so you'll have it, this is the website where I found tremors/switching as a possible side effect from the leukeran: http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/chlorambucil-leukeran/page1.aspx
And, as you can see, there are many people here who can give you advise on giving sub-q fluids. And since you've got your hubby there to help you, it will be twice as easy. You must have to keep telling yourself that you are not hurting him (which is true...he will barely even feel the needle prick), you are HELPING him. But Dan32 is absolutely correct, it is a fine line IF he has heart issues, and you don't want to give too much. But I'm sure your Vet will tell you just how much to give, so you should be fine. I, personally, swear by Terumo needles, and use the 19 gauge ones. When we switched over to those, it made it SO MUCH easier and quicker. Also, the higher you hang the bag of fluids, the faster they will flow, so the quicker you'll be done. There are many tricks you can use, but I also agree that warming the fluids helps. I just warmed mine in a bowl of hot water too, like GoHolistic. And you can give them to him while he is distracted eating his dinner, or treats, or something like that. BTW, our Vet wanted to charge us $65 for the set up, and I found I could buy everything elsewhere for much less. I guess it really depends on how often you will be doing this. We had a kidney cat, so were using a lot of supplies.
that Krash doesn't have another crash
What about your trip? Aren't you supposed to be leaving today for 5 days?
Just so you'll have it, this is the website where I found tremors/switching as a possible side effect from the leukeran: http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/chlorambucil-leukeran/page1.aspx
And, as you can see, there are many people here who can give you advise on giving sub-q fluids. And since you've got your hubby there to help you, it will be twice as easy. You must have to keep telling yourself that you are not hurting him (which is true...he will barely even feel the needle prick), you are HELPING him. But Dan32 is absolutely correct, it is a fine line IF he has heart issues, and you don't want to give too much. But I'm sure your Vet will tell you just how much to give, so you should be fine. I, personally, swear by Terumo needles, and use the 19 gauge ones. When we switched over to those, it made it SO MUCH easier and quicker. Also, the higher you hang the bag of fluids, the faster they will flow, so the quicker you'll be done. There are many tricks you can use, but I also agree that warming the fluids helps. I just warmed mine in a bowl of hot water too, like GoHolistic. And you can give them to him while he is distracted eating his dinner, or treats, or something like that. BTW, our Vet wanted to charge us $65 for the set up, and I found I could buy everything elsewhere for much less. I guess it really depends on how often you will be doing this. We had a kidney cat, so were using a lot of supplies.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #70
Thank you, everybody, for all your advice. I can not express how grateful I am to you all for caring and for all the tips and advice. Everything that I've done that has worked with Krash has been something one of you told me. I'd still be at square one, frustrated & crying all the time if it wasn't for y'all.
He's awake now. He got up for about 30 seconds to take 2 bites of food when I put it down for him, then went back to his bed. He purrs really loud when I talk to him. I think the sedative still hasn't worn off completely. That was the last thing he needed because it always affects him so much, even in low doses.
I think they want the sub-q's at home because he's getting dehydrated so easily. They did it 2 weeks ago at the hospital, and he really did perk up afterwards. This time, it left a HUGE saggy bubble of fluid under his arm/belly and, and he doesn't appear to be as perky as the last time. As for doing it at home,I'm not afraid of needles, so that part won't bother me. I'm more afraid of hurting him. Sometimes I'm so careful that I'm clumsy. I'll probably practice a lot on fruit like you said. Or I can have my hubby do it. He's a butcher, he has to have steady hands. The heart murmur is new. It does worry me that I'll give him to much fluid and make a bad problem worse.
He's kind of dazed from the sedation still. He's also super jumpy. Even the smallest noise scares him, and usually after he's been sedated, he's fearless. I think he's pretty stressed out. His weird incident last night didn't seem to affect him at all. When he fell over, he was still totally aware. I think it may have shocked him, like "WTH just happened?!", but He was looking at me and trying to get up. And then he was over it. It scared ME, and that's why we went to the ER. He was pretty calm there too until the dr walked in. He knows the white coat and doesn't like anyone that's wearing one.
He was eating pretty well yesterday, and great the day before. He was drinking lots of water. He's peeing and pooping normally...I think he was just dizzy and dehydrated. The Dr said she didn't see any signs of him being dizzy and nauseous or dehydrated, despite what I told her (licking his lips a lot, wobbling at first when standing up, etc). She changed her story on the dehydration after they re-ran his CBC.
I don't understand why she was so presumptuous after they ran it the first time if there was a possibility it was incorrect. She should've run it again, and then came to talk to me. Because the second time, it was normal.
I can't keep doing more and more stuff to him. He was always a pretty high strung kitty from the beginning. Even though he's not showing it that much, I know all this is just freaking him out. If I'm with him, he's ok, But when I look at his face, I know I can't keep doing it.
He has an appt with the oncologist next Friday. I'll do the sub-q's and whatnot until then. We'll see how his bloodwork looks compared to his previous ones. If there's no improvement at all, I think we may just keep him comfy, give him his "cheese Danish", and let nature do her thing until we have to let him rest.
I don't want to think this is near the end, but I'm trying to be realistic without being pessimistic. He can't keep going through all this.
I cancelled my trip (for the 2nd time in 2 months). As much as I need a break from this, Krash is more important right now.
He's awake now. He got up for about 30 seconds to take 2 bites of food when I put it down for him, then went back to his bed. He purrs really loud when I talk to him. I think the sedative still hasn't worn off completely. That was the last thing he needed because it always affects him so much, even in low doses.
I think they want the sub-q's at home because he's getting dehydrated so easily. They did it 2 weeks ago at the hospital, and he really did perk up afterwards. This time, it left a HUGE saggy bubble of fluid under his arm/belly and, and he doesn't appear to be as perky as the last time. As for doing it at home,I'm not afraid of needles, so that part won't bother me. I'm more afraid of hurting him. Sometimes I'm so careful that I'm clumsy. I'll probably practice a lot on fruit like you said. Or I can have my hubby do it. He's a butcher, he has to have steady hands. The heart murmur is new. It does worry me that I'll give him to much fluid and make a bad problem worse.
He's kind of dazed from the sedation still. He's also super jumpy. Even the smallest noise scares him, and usually after he's been sedated, he's fearless. I think he's pretty stressed out. His weird incident last night didn't seem to affect him at all. When he fell over, he was still totally aware. I think it may have shocked him, like "WTH just happened?!", but He was looking at me and trying to get up. And then he was over it. It scared ME, and that's why we went to the ER. He was pretty calm there too until the dr walked in. He knows the white coat and doesn't like anyone that's wearing one.
He was eating pretty well yesterday, and great the day before. He was drinking lots of water. He's peeing and pooping normally...I think he was just dizzy and dehydrated. The Dr said she didn't see any signs of him being dizzy and nauseous or dehydrated, despite what I told her (licking his lips a lot, wobbling at first when standing up, etc). She changed her story on the dehydration after they re-ran his CBC.
I don't understand why she was so presumptuous after they ran it the first time if there was a possibility it was incorrect. She should've run it again, and then came to talk to me. Because the second time, it was normal.
I can't keep doing more and more stuff to him. He was always a pretty high strung kitty from the beginning. Even though he's not showing it that much, I know all this is just freaking him out. If I'm with him, he's ok, But when I look at his face, I know I can't keep doing it.
He has an appt with the oncologist next Friday. I'll do the sub-q's and whatnot until then. We'll see how his bloodwork looks compared to his previous ones. If there's no improvement at all, I think we may just keep him comfy, give him his "cheese Danish", and let nature do her thing until we have to let him rest.
I don't want to think this is near the end, but I'm trying to be realistic without being pessimistic. He can't keep going through all this.
I cancelled my trip (for the 2nd time in 2 months). As much as I need a break from this, Krash is more important right now.
I haven't given sub-q fluids though I have seen it done several times. I know a lot of people with cats in the latter stages of CRF routinely do it at home. From what I have read it doesn't stress cats out especially once it becomes routine and I know first hand they feel much better after having it done. I know Patches didn't seem to mind having it done at the vet's office. The best advice I can give you is to take it one step at a time. The leukeran in many ways is like a strong steroid this could actually be a reaction to that extra steroid effect leaving his system.
It's my recollection that sedatives can sometimes cause a little bit of nausea when they're coming out of it, but I'm not 100% sure.
If a lot of fluids are given, it will leave "saggy skin." This happened to Sebastian last week, and he had this huge bunch of saggy skin hanging by his elbow. It was from the vet giving him a ton of fluids subcutaneously. Don't worry about hurting your kitty giving fluids. I was afraid to stick Sebastian the first time. He jumped a little from the initial prick (more startled than anything), but then he was fine. You shouldn't see blood. If you see blood at the prick point, remove the needle, get a new needle, and start over. My vet was really firm/aggressive about telling me never to re-insert the needle after it's been pulled out. They trained me by grabbing the skin in between the shoulder blades by making a "claw" with my fingertips. This ensures you're grabbing just skin. Then I stick the needle in the little "pocket" that the skin makes when pulled up. Put the needle in steadily, let go of the skin you're holding, and then release the valve(s) so that the fluids start flowing. You may need to hold the needle steady so that it doesn't move around or come out. I'm sure we all do sub-q fluids a little differently. You may find a method that works best for Krash.
It sounds to me like you have your head on straight as far as where it goes from here. What a good parent you are for cancelling your trip for the second time.
You're doing the best you can. Krash knows you love him. I'm so sorry you're going through this, but you're smart to be thinking about his qualify of life. If he's happy at home, then that's probably where he should be. My heart goes out to you and your family.
Tons of thoughts, prayers, and vibes.
If a lot of fluids are given, it will leave "saggy skin." This happened to Sebastian last week, and he had this huge bunch of saggy skin hanging by his elbow. It was from the vet giving him a ton of fluids subcutaneously. Don't worry about hurting your kitty giving fluids. I was afraid to stick Sebastian the first time. He jumped a little from the initial prick (more startled than anything), but then he was fine. You shouldn't see blood. If you see blood at the prick point, remove the needle, get a new needle, and start over. My vet was really firm/aggressive about telling me never to re-insert the needle after it's been pulled out. They trained me by grabbing the skin in between the shoulder blades by making a "claw" with my fingertips. This ensures you're grabbing just skin. Then I stick the needle in the little "pocket" that the skin makes when pulled up. Put the needle in steadily, let go of the skin you're holding, and then release the valve(s) so that the fluids start flowing. You may need to hold the needle steady so that it doesn't move around or come out. I'm sure we all do sub-q fluids a little differently. You may find a method that works best for Krash.
It sounds to me like you have your head on straight as far as where it goes from here. What a good parent you are for cancelling your trip for the second time.
Tons of thoughts, prayers, and vibes.
If he has a bubble of fluids floating around, he is good for a few days. That fluid bubble will go down as he absorbs it into his system. Take note of how long it takes him to absorb it. I would give 100ml subQ to my cat in her abdomen and the "bag" of liquid would slosh around dragging on the floor. It would be gone in a day or two.
It is very important if he has a heart murmer not to overdo the fluids. If he becomes overhydrated it can build up in his lungs. The old test for hydration is to pull gently on the back of the neck and it should spring back fairly quickly - if underhydrated it just hangs there with no elasticity. The vets do this test without us noticing them doing it. If a heart murmer cat starts to look barrel-chested, they are retaining too much liquid and stop the sub-Q's until they thin down. As you give the sub-Q, you will get better at eyeballing him and estimating when he needs more or less. I had a heart murmer cat that started to accumulate fluids in his lungs - he was having labored breathing, coughing, and needed to go to the ER and get doses of diuretics to make him pee the excess out while in an oxygen tent. After that experience, I would give him small doses (<50ml) daily or every other day, rather than big chugs (100-150ml) a few times a week.
One of the mineral imbalances from CKD is low potassium, which can make them tip over or have weak back legs. Potassium is also very involved in heart function.
However, it is important to obtain copies of the bloodworks - potassium level is one of the items on the report, along with urea and bun which is the level of ammonia in their blood. Don't be shy about asking for them - you already paid for them. Since you are getting chemo, he has probably already had a number of bloodwork panels done. It is the comparison of the numbers from one report to the other that tells if the CKD is progressing or stable.
It is very important if he has a heart murmer not to overdo the fluids. If he becomes overhydrated it can build up in his lungs. The old test for hydration is to pull gently on the back of the neck and it should spring back fairly quickly - if underhydrated it just hangs there with no elasticity. The vets do this test without us noticing them doing it. If a heart murmer cat starts to look barrel-chested, they are retaining too much liquid and stop the sub-Q's until they thin down. As you give the sub-Q, you will get better at eyeballing him and estimating when he needs more or less. I had a heart murmer cat that started to accumulate fluids in his lungs - he was having labored breathing, coughing, and needed to go to the ER and get doses of diuretics to make him pee the excess out while in an oxygen tent. After that experience, I would give him small doses (<50ml) daily or every other day, rather than big chugs (100-150ml) a few times a week.
One of the mineral imbalances from CKD is low potassium, which can make them tip over or have weak back legs. Potassium is also very involved in heart function.
However, it is important to obtain copies of the bloodworks - potassium level is one of the items on the report, along with urea and bun which is the level of ammonia in their blood. Don't be shy about asking for them - you already paid for them. Since you are getting chemo, he has probably already had a number of bloodwork panels done. It is the comparison of the numbers from one report to the other that tells if the CKD is progressing or stable.
Actually, over-hydration was what inadvertantly did Kinney in as well. I had left him at the ER having not eaten well for several days due to his last chemo. They told me they were going to put him on fluids (I think they see this as a substitute for nourishment) and observe him overnight, then the ER called at midnight to say he was having labored breathing - they were taking him off the fluids and putting him in an oxygen tent and giving him diuretics. I said yes, do that since I had already had my previous experience with my heart murmer cat, I knew the drill. Several hours later, Kinney went into cardiac arrest from that whole thing - not directly the cause of his death, but related. And Kinney did not have a bad ticker.
So while one usually thinks of subQ as something harmless and where only good can come of it - if the heart is at all compromised, too much fluids can be quite fatal. Better to be absolutely sure from the bloodworks that he needs it in the first place, then smaller doses more frequently in the heart compromised cat. At the very least, talk this over with the vet.
Sorry to sound the alarm.
So while one usually thinks of subQ as something harmless and where only good can come of it - if the heart is at all compromised, too much fluids can be quite fatal. Better to be absolutely sure from the bloodworks that he needs it in the first place, then smaller doses more frequently in the heart compromised cat. At the very least, talk this over with the vet.
Sorry to sound the alarm.
Dan32, I think it's very important that you bring this up. I didn't know this!
(Makes me think I'll skip Sebastian's fluids tonight, or give him less than I have been.
)
(Makes me think I'll skip Sebastian's fluids tonight, or give him less than I have been.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #76
I don't think they know what's wrong with Krash. I really don't. I've heard everything from kidney issues, to fatty liver, anemia, low blood pressure due to dehydration, some type of infection, plain old dehydration, and a blockage of some kind. And then the heart murmur thing. They gave him the sub-q's, telling me it wasn't what he really needed (well then why do it?!).
The giant bag of fluid under his abdomen is almost gone. But you mention labored breathing and that scares me. I just noticed about an hour ago that he was breathing heavy. I thought I had just stressed him out by giving him his meds. He's been relaxed and in bed all day mostly. Not "happy" relaxed, but relaxed. And I just had to get him up, "burrito" him in a blanket & give him meds. It's more stressful than usual because he doesn't feel good. I'm going to go monitor his breathing now.
I don't know, you guys. This is starting to get out of control. If he was showing me anything of his normal self, I wouldn't feel so terrible. But he's just laid in bed all day, only getting up 3 times to eat and use his litterbox. I don't know if it's because of the sedation or he just really feels bad. As I said earlier, he purrs when I talk to him, But he was also purring just lying there when no one was near him.
He's not grooming, is barely talking, barely getting up.
I don't feel like I can do this with a good conscience anymore.
The giant bag of fluid under his abdomen is almost gone. But you mention labored breathing and that scares me. I just noticed about an hour ago that he was breathing heavy. I thought I had just stressed him out by giving him his meds. He's been relaxed and in bed all day mostly. Not "happy" relaxed, but relaxed. And I just had to get him up, "burrito" him in a blanket & give him meds. It's more stressful than usual because he doesn't feel good. I'm going to go monitor his breathing now.
I don't know, you guys. This is starting to get out of control. If he was showing me anything of his normal self, I wouldn't feel so terrible. But he's just laid in bed all day, only getting up 3 times to eat and use his litterbox. I don't know if it's because of the sedation or he just really feels bad. As I said earlier, he purrs when I talk to him, But he was also purring just lying there when no one was near him.
He's not grooming, is barely talking, barely getting up.
I don't feel like I can do this with a good conscience anymore.
I'm so sorry.
I really don't know what to tell you. You know Krash better than anyone.
It's hard to go back and read all the posts. How long has he been like this?
It's hard to go back and read all the posts. How long has he been like this?
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2012
- Messages
- 107
- Purraise
- 53
Oh no, Krash, I am so sorry to hear about your kitty. I can understand your pain and heartache as my cat is going through something similar. I have no easy answers for you... I just don't know, either. Especially when they are on so many medications, how do you know if they are sick or if they are just experiencing side effects from the meds? My heart goes out to you and your baby.
Well, remember how well he was doing just a couple of days ago. There will be ups and downs with this cancer and treatment, and I don't think you should consider anything radical at this point. He's just been thru something pretty harsh (being sedated, etc.), so I would at least give him a couple of days to get back to normal, especially since he is eating, using his box, etc. (as long as he doesn't appear to be in pain). when he is in his bed, does he appear to be relaxed, or he lying in the crunched up position on his stomach? I really think the fact that he is still eating is a good sign
, and remember, I'm the one who initially said "maybe he's trying to tell you something" when you first posted.
that this is just a temporary set-back.
Daisy is a nightmare when sedated. It takes her a long time to come back to normal. Ups and downs is the common theme with cancer. Hang on in there. If he's eating that's still a really good sign. Lots of positive wishes from us x
- Status
