Grain Free bad for male cats?

[pushylady]

My understanding is that dry of any kind is bad for UTI cats. We have our Pushy on mostly wet, and he only gets a few kibbles because his brother still eats 1/3 of his diet in kibble. Otherwise we'd have him on wet food only, mixed with extra water too.

 

[sevenwonders]

 So far the culprit has only been the dry grain free right? 

Not in our case...

My Kitties were all fine on Blue Buffalo Spa Select for years.

Within a few months of switching to 100% GF (wet and dry) one of my boys developed a bad UTI.

They eat wet twice a day and snack on dry.

 

[kittylover23]

Not in our case...

My Kitties were all fine on Blue Buffalo Spa Select for years.

Within a few months of switching to 100% GF (wet and dry) one of my boys developed a bad UTI.

They eat wet twice a day and snack on dry.

Geez! Makes me think twice about feeding males grain free...but does anyone know why grain free causes UTIs in males?

I don't see how grains would be beneficial in any way to a male cat's urinary tract system.

 

[ldg]

I have three boys that blocked, two needed catheterization, and one needed it twice. They did fine on high protein, low-carb grain-free food. They're doing fine on raw now. They got blocked on dry food.... Iams or Nutro or something back in 2002/2003.

 

[ldg]

I guess my question is.... of the grain free foods being used by people experiencing problems with crystals, what is the protein/carb content, and how much phosphorus and magnesium are in the foods? I just ran through a list of (canned) foods looking for a high protein/low carb food that isn't high in phosphorus (and isn't primarily fish), and I didn't find many. In fact, the list included raw foods, and they were the ones that primarily fit the bill. :lol3:

 

[minka]

I think the bigger question is: has anyone ever had a cat block on grain-free WET food?
That would be more concrete evidence to me. IMO any dry food, grains or not are going to increase chance for blocking.. I don't think grains have anything to do with it..

 

[jcribbs]

My male cat had struvite crystals/URI and nearly died a few years back.  The vet told me he would always have this potential to have crystals again and he suggested HILLS (horror).  I went against vet's orders and fed him felidae and raw supplemented by his own prey food.  He now eats taste of the wild.  I have never had another problem with crystals....  he is healthy as they come.  The vet said the reason he had them was because he was nibbling on my dogs food.

I say just watch the ash content... That's why I originally went to Filedae.  However, since those days, they have changed their ingredients, so I can't speak for them now.  That's what I did and that's what worked for him.  I feed grain free always.  I will never go backwards from what works for mine regardless of this thread.  It's' not that complicated.  it's all about the ash.
 

 

[ldg]

I say just watch the ash content... It's' not that complicated.  it's all about the ash.

Actually, it isn't that simple. That used to be the thinking, though it wasn't "ash" in general (ash is minerals), it was specifically phosphorus and magnesium. An association was found between magnesium and struvite crystal formation. The cat food manufacturers all changed their formulas to reduce magnesium, and then the pendulum swung, and calcium oxalate crystal/stone formation became a problem.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=1+1402&aid=2729
.

Struvite Crystals and Stones

Formation

Struvite crystals are made up of magnesium, ammonium, and phosphate. The crystals and stones are more likely to develop in alkaline urine. The main dietary factors which appear to affect the development of struvite crystals are urine ph and water consumption. In the past, crystals and stones made of struvite were more common in cats. As a result, diets were developed to minimize the risk of forming struvite. These diets were low in magnesium and cats eating them produced an acidic (low pH) urine. As more cats were fed these diets, both for treatment and prevention of struvite, the percentage of cats with struvite stones decreased, but the incidence of calcium oxalate crystals and stones increased. Struvite is still, by far, the most common component of urethral plugs.

Type of Stone % Stones in 1984 % of Stones in 2007
Struvite 75 49
Oxalate 2 41

Urine pH has been found to have the greatest impact on crystals

http://www.vetlearn.com/compendium/feline-struvite-urolithiasis
.


And the protein source impacts urine pH. This study only looked at meals used in kibbles - meat meal (MM), chicken meal (CM), and corn gluten meal (CGM). The use of meals as the protein source ALL contributed to alkaline urine; but the reason we see corn gluten meal in so many urinary KIBBLE diets is because it was shown to produce the least struvite crystals:
.

Urinary pH, struvite activity product, and number of struvite crystals in urine were lower for the CGM group. There was no difference in retention of calcium and magnesium among the groups. From the point of view of digestibility and N utilization, MM is superior to CGM, and CM is better than or equivalent to CGM as a protein source of dry foods for adult cats. However, when CM is used as a dietary protein source, some manipulation of dietary base excess may be needed to control urinary acid-base balance, because CM contains higher calcium and phosphorus.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1250243/


I don't know if those that switched to grain-free continued to have problems with crystals if using an ALL WET diet. But when our boys had problems with crystals, and we put them on the prescription diet, the vet cautioned us NO TREATS. That little bit can cause a problem.

So SevenWonders, I suspect the problem may not be the grain-free food, but the fact that you continue to provide kibble as a snack. :dk:

Now... how all this ties into grain-free WET

 

[jcribbs]

wow......  I guess mine are just lucky.

I remember the vet also told me that males that are fixed at a very young age are more prone to this as well because "their UR tubes" stay small throughout their lives.  Toe was fixed real early.  None of  my other cats have ever had this before, male or female, prior or since Toe and I am so glad because it was horrible.  I don't know if that is totally accurate but it makes sense to me in one way only.   It means that the crystals get hung up in the smaller tubes.  It has nothing to do with the development of the crystals.

Jimmy was not a baby kitten.  If I remember right, elly said he was at least 6 months old to a year old when he was fixed.

Snoopy and Hank were about a year old.

Sam was two and unaltered when we got him.  He was an adult when fixed.

Yellow was already fixed when we got him at 5 years old.

JJ was an adult cat several years old also.

Toe was just a couple months old and he was the one who developed it.

Buddy was also an adult when he was fixed.

Is that all my males?????
 

 

[ldg]

But Jenn, haven't you always fed only wet? :dk:

 

[kittylover23]

I guess my question is.... of the grain free foods being used by people experiencing problems with crystals, what is the protein/carb content, and how much phosphorus and magnesium are in the foods? I just ran through a list of (canned) foods looking for a high protein/low carb food that isn't high in phosphorus (and isn't primarily fish), and I didn't find many. In fact, the list included raw foods, and they were the ones that primarily fit the bill.

Has this question been answered? I'm too lazy to scroll through all the posts.

I'd really love to hear the answer to this!

 

[sevenwonders]

.So SevenWonders, I suspect the problem may not be the grain-free food, but the fact that you continue to provide kibble as a snack.

 

Thanks for all of the information.

I understand how that potential could exist, however, our circumstances don't seem to support that theory.

For years they did fine on Blue Buffalo Spa Select DRY - with maybe one wet meal per week.

For the next perhaps two years, they ate Blue Buffalo Wilderness GF DRY with around one wet meal per week.

Again, no health problems.

Once I learned how much better wet food is for them, I started giving them one or two meals per day of Innova Cat & Kitten cans -

again, they did fine. Eventually we switched to Grain Free Cans and switched the dry snack from BB Wilderness to Innova Prime

and after 3 or 4 months, Boo developed the UTI.

Actually, Neko, our Apple head Siamese ate nothing but dry for his first 15 years until he developed CRF,

then we switched to home made food for his final 5 years.

Jerry, my ten year old, ate the same foods as Boo for the past 5 years,

but prior to that he ate only dry - again, no health issues.

If it is just due to the dry food, I'd say we got extremely lucky to have avoided UTI's for all of those years. 

I have no scientific evidence to support the notion that switching to GF could be a factor,

but my Kitties' food history in relation to health issues seems to suggest that a relationship could exist... I wish I knew for sure.

 

[ldg]

I have no scientific evidence to support the notion that switching to GF could be a factor,
but my Kitties' food history in relation to health issues seems to suggest that a relationship could exist... I wish I knew for sure.

Me too! I haven't found anything as re: scientific studies to link the issues. :dk:

 

[auntie crazy]

As LDG alluded to in a previous post, the question shouldn't be "grain or no grain". Rather, it should be a look at the diet from a "what causes crystals in the first place" perspective.

Struvite crystals occur naturally in feline urine. They only become an issue under one condition - when there are too many forming to be easily passed in the amount of urine the cat is producing.

Dehydration reduces the amount of urine produced, causing a concentration of everything in the cat's urine, including crystals. Since cats don't have a strong thirst drive (even when they aren't getting enough water through their food), any diet low in moisture is going to cause a chronically-dehydrated state and create a strong potential for urinary tract issues.

Many foods - including fish and anything starchy or high-carb (like grains, potatoes, tapioca, etc.) - cause the cat's PH to become more alkaline. As the alkalinity increases, so does the production of struvite crystals. Therefore, diets containing quantities of these ingredients are going to create an environment conducive to crystal formation and, eventually, blockage.

None of these are guarantees the cat will suffer a blockage great enough for us to notice. And, obviously, any diet combining these factors is going to have an exponentially higher chance of causing crystal-related problems.

For a while, the mantra was "go low-grain!", because that was the source of most of the carbs back then. Pet food companies, sensitive to consumer discussions (if not to the actual health of their end-consumers), began removing the high profile grains in their products and replacing them with ingredients not yet on the consumer radar, but just as unhealthy, if not more so - pea fiber, for instance, is even harder to digest - for the cat.

If you focus only on the grain content, it's easy to see how it can look like grain-free foods are "bad" for feline urinary tract health. In fact, however, it is not the absence of grains that is causing the problem, but the presence of other, sometimes more-inappropriate ingredients.

Finally, I'm not aware, offhand, of any studies on differences in disease levels between feral and domestic cats, but I'm pretty sure there are comparisons between the big cats kept in zoos and domestic cats. I'll see if I can find them.

Even without them, however, we know what a cat's natural PH is, we know that a raw diet maintains that PH perfectly (how could it be otherwise!), and we know that species-inappropriate ingredients affect PH. Struvite crystals form when it becomes too alkaline and oxalate crystals form when the PH shifts too far in the other direction. Looking at what we feed from that perspective will probably do a whole lot more to prevent urinary tract issues than debating which ingredient causes the least damage, you know?

AC

 

[minka]

Thanks for all of the information.

I understand how that potential could exist, however, our circumstances don't seem to support that theory.

For years they did fine on Blue Buffalo Spa Select DRY - with maybe one wet meal per week.
For the next perhaps two years, they ate Blue Buffalo Wilderness GF DRY with around one wet meal per week.
Again, no health problems.

Once I learned how much better wet food is for them, I started giving them one or two meals per day of Innova Cat & Kitten cans -
again, they did fine. Eventually we switched to Grain Free Cans and switched the dry snack from BB Wilderness to Innova Prime
and after 3 or 4 months, Boo developed the UTI.

Actually, Neko, our Apple head Siamese ate nothing but dry for his first 15 years until he developed CRF,
then we switched to home made food for his final 5 years.

Jerry, my ten year old, ate the same foods as Boo for the past 5 years,
but prior to that he ate only dry - again, no health issues.

If it is just due to the dry food, I'd say we got extremely lucky to have avoided UTI's for all of those years.  :dk:

I have no scientific evidence to support the notion that switching to GF could be a factor,
but my Kitties' food history in relation to health issues seems to suggest that a relationship could exist... I wish I knew for sure.

Sometimes it takes many years for health problems to arise. There's no way to know whether your cats were actually okay for all those years on dry or not. They may have had small build-ups of crystals that you never knew about because they resolved themselves, but after so many years, the body could no longer fix the problem. Or they may have been crystal free, but again the moisture deprived diet took its toll on their urinary system and it finally failed. There's no way to know. :dk:

To sum up everything else you said, there is a saying from the famous Dr Pierson that I'm going to paraphrase: 'Every cat is "fine" until the symptoms of disease present themselves.'

Finally, I'm not aware, offhand, of any studies on differences in disease levels between feral and domestic cats, but I'm pretty sure there are comparisons between the big cats kept in zoos and domestic cats. I'll see if I can find them.

I could have sworn a study was linked somewhere here on TCS. I've never been able to find it again though...

 

[kumitekat]

I am surprised to hear about this UTI issue with grain free foods. It doesn't make any sense to me. I searched the internet to see if some veterinarians or someone had something to say about it, and I found that mostly they disagree. It seems that the amount of water the cat is drinking is what causes the natural occurring crystals to accumulate and cause infection in the urinary tract.

Here is one site...

http://www.catinfo.org/#Cystitis_

It seems they think the grain free actually HELPS keep the ph in the urine balanced.

It did mention though that we have to keep our cats interested in drinking water. I am thinking the problem is more likely to be that the cat needs a daily play routine so that they get hot and more interested in water. And/or the water needs to be changed daily, or a drinking fountain installed. Feed wet food more often too. Try daily.

There may be exceptions, but it seems like everyone who encountered a UTI that I read about above stopped feeding grain free AND started feeding wet food and wet food mixed with water, etc...to make the infection go away.

I suppose it might be ok to search for a grain free without extra magnesium, since it seems to be related, otherwise, the benefits of feeding grain free seem to highly outweigh the chances of the cat developing a UTI from eating it.

 

[kattiekitty]

Can you tell us why that relationship exists? (GF and UT issues in male cats)

We had a thread or two about this, but many thought it was a coincidence or only relevant to dry.

On the other hand, several of us have had male kitties develop UT issues only after switching to GF,

even when half or more of their diet is canned. 

Hi there,

i just found this post so will try to answer. Alot of the issues withh UTI and grain free ect I still believe is conjecture. There are male cats that can eat grain free dry for years and not have an issue and then there are those kitties that will have chronic issues even on a grain inclusive diet. With the grain free, it is very high in protein therefore much higher in minerals ie magnesium ect. I believe Innova EVO has a verry high mineral content, but that is the nature of the beast. With this higher mineral content, kitties can have a tendency to develop more crystals. In a canned or raw high protein diet, there is enough moisture to counteract the higher mineral content, so there is less likely to be issues. With a dehydrating form of food like grain free drys, there is a higher chance of a cat becoming dehydrated and developing more crystals and the ph of the urine will change and is they are a cat with issues, they have a much higher chance of developing a UTI. This is even more critical in male cats as they are much more likely to become blocked with crystal and stone formation. I

If a cat drinks plenty of water and or eats a good amount of canned food I believe these issues are less likely to occur. To play it safe we always told our clients to use grain free cautiously in their male cats if they never had an issue, and we didn't recommend it obviously for those that were already dealing with issues. as for my own cats, I've never had an issue with UTIs *knock on wood* I have a male and female cat. They eat a mix of grain free and grain inclusive. Currently that is TOTW grain free and Natural Balance Ultra Premium because my female eats that one really well. I rotate brands to prevent pickyness and incase of a recall I can switch and not have issues. Other brands that I use are Wellness, Orijen, Felidae Before grain, Innova, Blue buffalo ect. My cats also get  canned food twice a day which makes up about 50-60% of their diet. each cat really only gets a 1/4 cup of dry a day. My cats also drink a good amount of water on their own as I have a fountain and water bowls throughout the apartment. I could probably do a grain free dry as they do eat lots of canned and drink plenty of water, but personally I have heard too many stories of kitties getting blocked  fter being on grain free dry exclusively, for me to be comfortable to feed it to my own, or recommend it to other  that have male cats.

 

[auntie crazy]

It bears repeating, maybe, that the focus should not be on whether a product has grains or not, but on the level of moisture and the percentage of carbs and other ingredients that alter urine PH off the norm.

According to the NRC's "Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats", a cat can maintain a hydrated state as long as the moisture level of her food meets or exceeds 63%, as fed. All dry kibble diets create a state of chronic dehydration, thereby concentrating urine and creating an environment ripe for urinary tract issues (not to mention stressing the kidneys and other body organs).

Many species-inappropriate foods, including fish and starchy / high-carb ingredients like grains, peas, potatoes and tapioca, will raise the PH, causing it to become more alkaline. An alkaline environment promotes the formation of struvite crystals, as indicated by multiple studies including this one: Evaluation of effects of dietary carbohydrate on formation of struvite crystals in urine and macromineral balance in clinically normal cats, M. Funaba, et. al., Am J Vet Res, February 2004, quote: “Starch and fiber in diets potentially stimulate formation of struvite crystals. Hence, reducing dietary carbohydrate is desirable to prevent struvite urolith formation. In addition, a net loss of body calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium during feeding of the fiber diet suggests that dietary inclusion of insoluble fiber could increase macromineral requirements of cats.”

Animal-based ingredients, however - as the diet the cat evolved to thrive upon - naturally maintain a cat's normal PH level. Effects of a high-protein diet versus dietary supplementation with ammonium chloride on struvite crystal formation in urine of clinically normal cats, M. Funaba, et. al., Am J Vet Res, August 2003, quote: “Our results indicate that compared with dietary supplementation with NH4Cl, the high-protein diet is preferable as a urine acidifier for the prevention of struvite crystal formation in clinically normal cats.”

So feed a diet high in moisture and animal-based ingredients, and you severely reduce or outright eliminate the potential for both oxalate and struvite crystal-related issues (as well as other urinary tract problems).

AC

 

[sevenwonders]

For a while, the mantra was "go low-grain!", because that was the source of most of the carbs back then. Pet food companies, sensitive to consumer discussions (if not to the actual health of their end-consumers), began removing the high profile grains in their products and replacing them with ingredients not yet on the consumer radar, but just as unhealthy, if not more so - pea fiber, for instance, is even harder to digest - for the cat.

If you focus only on the grain content, it's easy to see how it can look like grain-free foods are "bad" for feline urinary tract health. In fact, however, it is not the absence of grains that is causing the problem, but the presence of other, sometimes more-inappropriate ingredients.

Lots of good info in your last two posts AC - thanks much!

Still, I wonder (as I mentioned sometime last Spring)

other things being equal, wouldn't pea fiber and potatoes

be just as bad (or worse) for the Kitties than Brown Rice and Barley???  

 

[kittylover23]

HMM...great question SevenWonders!