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A email to them will yield you every mineral level in the food ...
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Grain Free bad for male cats?
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Yep, already emailed them.
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Yes
Not if you are using two AFFCO complete foods ... 99% of the foods on the market in the US have one of the two ways of an AFFCO seal( feed trial or chemical percentages )
I have found that I can't feed a grain free diet at home with the boys either. I just end up having too many urinary issues.
I am feeding EVO to my boy who is diabetic though and so far so good there.
Does anyone have an opinion on the Natures Variety Prarie diets?
I am feeding EVO to my boy who is diabetic though and so far so good there.
Does anyone have an opinion on the Natures Variety Prarie diets?
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Prairie and Instinct are good foods that many kitties do not seem to find tasty
I feed my young cat both instinct and their homestyle canned. He likes the latter more and it has grain. Its stewy with gravy. But he could not stand the dry. It was so dry looking i couldnt blame him. I also feed my dog nv raw.
I feed NV Instinct both canned and raw to my cats and they love it.
My cat who used to have crystals and was for several years on the dry Hills c/d (and still had crystals) has never had a problem on grain free BUT it's wet food which probably makes a big difference. I know I have read (I think on catinfo.org?) that for some reason the grain free dry food is even lower in moisture content than most dry food is.
I do know a lot of people who feed grain free canned or raw and have not had a problem with urinary issues.
My cat who used to have crystals and was for several years on the dry Hills c/d (and still had crystals) has never had a problem on grain free BUT it's wet food which probably makes a big difference. I know I have read (I think on catinfo.org?) that for some reason the grain free dry food is even lower in moisture content than most dry food is.
I do know a lot of people who feed grain free canned or raw and have not had a problem with urinary issues.
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Grain free dry is the same 8-12 % moisture as all the other drys( there are mandates of moisture content in dry foods to classify it as such)... It is HIGHER in overall Ash and Mineral content.....
Wet food grain free does Not pose the same issues...
I know MANY many who when feeding raw made Urinary issues far worse ... This is also the experience of many of the vets in my area including some who feed raw
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Does that seem to correlate to particular meats mostly used, quality, or just using parts? Would whole prey do that, too? Or is it overall lack of knowledge in many trying it? (just curious)
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likely a bit of all of the above ... but mostly on the wrong % of bone for a cat with that issue
I'm really confused after reading this thread.
My cat had struvite crystals 5 years ago. Ironically, I think it was because I tried to switch him to canned from purina one - Iam's canned food, chicken flavor. He'd been eating that for about a month when he got the crystals.
After ~$1000 in vet bills, I did some reading, and discovered that people thought the grains in kibble would raise the urinary pH. Is this true, or is this 'old' incorrect information from 5 years ago? Rather than put my cat on expensive prescription food, doubly difficult since we had multiple cats, I started buying grain-free kibble. Started with Innova Evo, and eventually settled on TotW. He ate TotW for 3 years, and has never had any health problems in the past 5 years.
Recently, he turned up his nose at TotW (other cat was still eating it). I'm wondering if the last of the bag just went stale or something. He got really skinny, and I decided it was time to try some new grain-free kibble. Both my cats will eat Before Grain salmon and Indigo Moon solid gold. Former 36% protein; latter 46%. Now I'm scared that anything I try, with or without grain, will give him struvite crystals. Ack! Can someone clarify this for me?
I would love to move to canned but this is not financially possible for me (I have cut my living expenses as low as I can get them, and this year might be the first in awhile that I will actually not be drawing down on savings).
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This thread is so full of misinformation, it makes my head hurt. And it shouldn't be this hard to feed our furry friends... we shouldn't have to be ace investigators or feline nutritionists just to go shopping for Fluffy's flippin' dinner!!
As obligate carnivores, a cat's natural diet is the whole bodies of prey animals and insects, so anyone claiming that a "high-protein" diet is detrimental to a cat's health doesn't know what they're talking about, plain and simple.
Kibble, on the other hand, is an entirely species-inappropriate food item for cats (just like it would be for birds of prey, sharks or snakes). I've never seen this claim that manufacturers add grains to kibble to raise PH and, by doing so, lower the chances of urinary tract issues, anywhere but here on TCS, but urinary tract issues are just one of the many problems kibble causes - with or without grains.
Since you aren't able to feed canned, Kat, my best recommendation for you would be to take a look at feline-nutrition.org, catinfo.org, or catnutrition.org to see if you can find something related to your specific question (especially the first one, the Feline Nutrition Education Society's site). All three of those sites have contact information in addition to their many articles, and I know that FNES and Cat Info do respond at least some of the time to information requests (not sure about Cat Nutrition).
Good luck!!
AC
As obligate carnivores, a cat's natural diet is the whole bodies of prey animals and insects, so anyone claiming that a "high-protein" diet is detrimental to a cat's health doesn't know what they're talking about, plain and simple.
Kibble, on the other hand, is an entirely species-inappropriate food item for cats (just like it would be for birds of prey, sharks or snakes). I've never seen this claim that manufacturers add grains to kibble to raise PH and, by doing so, lower the chances of urinary tract issues, anywhere but here on TCS, but urinary tract issues are just one of the many problems kibble causes - with or without grains.
Since you aren't able to feed canned, Kat, my best recommendation for you would be to take a look at feline-nutrition.org, catinfo.org, or catnutrition.org to see if you can find something related to your specific question (especially the first one, the Feline Nutrition Education Society's site). All three of those sites have contact information in addition to their many articles, and I know that FNES and Cat Info do respond at least some of the time to information requests (not sure about Cat Nutrition).
Good luck!!
AC
OMG! I thought I was going insane with the problems my cat Lucas is going through and then i read all this....
Lucas has been having skin problems and I changed his food to grain free thinking it is the best for him and now I'm just too confused! I've read everywhere that grains are not supposed to be in a cat's diet, and here I'm reading they are good? I thought grains caused the urinary issues.
Lucas is doing so well with his food, I just can't think straight right now, I'm so scared of giving him something that will harm him.
I'm giving him grain free dry and also canned. If this is not good, what am I supposed to give him? This is crazyy
Lucas has been having skin problems and I changed his food to grain free thinking it is the best for him and now I'm just too confused! I've read everywhere that grains are not supposed to be in a cat's diet, and here I'm reading they are good? I thought grains caused the urinary issues.
Lucas is doing so well with his food, I just can't think straight right now, I'm so scared of giving him something that will harm him.
I'm giving him grain free dry and also canned. If this is not good, what am I supposed to give him? This is crazyy
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Please, Momto4kitties - ignore all of this misinformation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are correct; grains do NOT belong in a cat's diet. PERIOD.
Trying to find a cat food is already complicated enough, please do not let this craziness make it any worse for you. Kibble makes your cat dehydrated (among other things), and this increases the chance of urinary tract issues, however, adding grains is only going to cause more problems. TRULY!!
The solution is to avoid the processing that is the source of these issues and feed only canned (or raw if you can), preferably grain-, veggie-, fruit- and fish-free, but any canned is going to avoid the problems that come with kibble.
Feline-nutrition.org, Catinfo.org, Catnutrition.org, and, if you can get that far, Rawfedcats.org are awesome resources for honest, straightforward, detailed but easy to understand feline nutrition information. Also, the Feline Nutrition Education Society is on facebook as rawfedkitty.org (don't know why such an odd name, but they are not associated with rawfedcats.org) if you want to ask the experts some questions.
AC
I am sorry Auntie, but why do you call personal experience misinformation?
I am not saying and will not say grains are good for everything however, here is what I will say, based on what happened with Bugsy, for which I am still dealing with the consequences (as you are aware) almost a year later.
As far as UTI goes:
While Bugsy was on Dry Grain + Grain Free wet, he had no problems.
He was put into a 100% grain free diet: Developed an UTI.
Back on Dry with grains grain free wet: UTI free.
There are plenty of people with the same/similar experiences, and I think it is rather unfair to be called crazy, say that we are giving misinformation and such, when what we are doing here is posting our experiences.
Again, seems to me that this thread is being transformed into another - the only valid, good diet is raw. Fine, that is your opinion, and that's great. However, IMHO that does not discount what happened to Bugsy, Jamie (jcat's cat) or Sharky's cat, just to cite 3 cats on this thread alone.
Seems to me that the discussion here was the differences in food with grain and without grain as in wet/dry, and why.
My opinion FWIW.
Tammie, Lucas seems to have a problem with grains, so that's an entirely different thing... If my kitty had a problem with grain I would definitely try a grain free diet.... Or at least find a single grain I could feed, since he seems to not eat a whole wet diet.... On a 100% grain free, I am much more comfortable with wet only based on personal experience.
I am not saying and will not say grains are good for everything however, here is what I will say, based on what happened with Bugsy, for which I am still dealing with the consequences (as you are aware) almost a year later.
As far as UTI goes:
While Bugsy was on Dry Grain + Grain Free wet, he had no problems.
He was put into a 100% grain free diet: Developed an UTI.
Back on Dry with grains grain free wet: UTI free.
There are plenty of people with the same/similar experiences, and I think it is rather unfair to be called crazy, say that we are giving misinformation and such, when what we are doing here is posting our experiences.
Again, seems to me that this thread is being transformed into another - the only valid, good diet is raw. Fine, that is your opinion, and that's great. However, IMHO that does not discount what happened to Bugsy, Jamie (jcat's cat) or Sharky's cat, just to cite 3 cats on this thread alone.
Seems to me that the discussion here was the differences in food with grain and without grain as in wet/dry, and why.
My opinion FWIW.
Tammie, Lucas seems to have a problem with grains, so that's an entirely different thing... If my kitty had a problem with grain I would definitely try a grain free diet.... Or at least find a single grain I could feed, since he seems to not eat a whole wet diet.... On a 100% grain free, I am much more comfortable with wet only based on personal experience.
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I don't discount the experiences, Carolina, not at all. I just disagree with the take-away from those experiences. Especially when that take-away causes more confusion in an already insanely - for some, even painfully - confusing topic. As a professional who dedicates a large portion of personal time to helping cat owners, I find that profoundly distressing. I hate seeing people struggle to find a decent food for their cats; it just shouldn't be this frustrating, difficult and drama-laden endeavor.
This thread questions a basic tenant of feline nutrition - that cats, as obligate carnivores, have no need of and shouldn't be fed any type of grain. If it were only kibble feeders reading and responding to it, I wouldn't have posted, but there are folks who feed canned who are panicking thinking that this basic tenant, which they trusted to be true and upon which they've based at least some of their cats' diet, is suddenly, maybe, not so true after all.
And that's the part I'm trying to address. I'm just trying to help clear some of that confusion away.
To whit - it isn't the lack of grain that's the problem, it's the kibble. The solution isn't to add a product that doesn't belong in the cat's diet, it's to switch to a more digestible and feline-appropriate product altogether; for most, that's canned.
And you're not crazy, Carolina, you're a good cat mom doing the best you can under some pretty doggone tight constrictions. But then, of course, you don't need me to tell you that!
AC
Originally Posted by sharky
I will NEVER again feed a male cat a totally grain free dry again! I have lots of vet bills from trying it ... Grain free has too high of mineral levels
Grain free wet IS Fine... as the moisture helps balance it and the processing does not yeild incorrect nutrient levels..
Grain in a dry food is NOT evil or bad .... Some grains are better than others and you do want meat meal and meat ahead of any grains...
.............................Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy
I don't discount the experiences, Carolina, not at all. I just disagree with the take-away from those experiences. Especially when that take-away causes more confusion in an already insanely - for some, even painfully - confusing topic. As a professional who dedicates a large portion of personal time to helping cat owners, I find that profoundly distressing. I hate seeing people struggle to find a decent food for their cats; it just shouldn't be this frustrating, difficult and drama-laden endeavor. Auntie, What do you mean by professional? Do you hold a degree in Veterinary Nutrition or anything similar? Just curious... And I agree, feeding our kitties should not be this complicated... I remember my parents feeding my kitties when I was little table scraps - they were all healthy and lived for a very very old age. Then they were put on kibbles, which at the time, let me tell you, were not nearly as good as they are today.... Nor did we have the choice we have on the shelves... Again, per the vets, were nutritionally balanced... Again, lived to a long age.... I do think we tend to over complicate things, and sometimes we just happen to have complicated kitties, IMHO.
This thread questions a basic tenant of feline nutrition - that cats, as obligate carnivores, have no need of and shouldn't be fed any type of grain. If it were only kibble feeders reading and responding to it, I wouldn't have posted, but there are folks who feed canned who are panicking thinking that this basic tenant, which they trusted to be true and upon which they've based at least some of their cats' diet, is suddenly, maybe, not so true after all. I think if you read the whole thread, it can be clear that it was mentioned over and over again, that Grain free wet is not the problem - our cats had a problem with 100% grain free diet, particularly dry. These cats continue to eat grain on dry and grain-free wet without issues.
And that's the part I'm trying to address. I'm just trying to help clear some of that confusion away.
To whit - it isn't the lack of grain that's the problem, it's the kibble. The solution isn't to add a product that doesn't belong in the cat's diet, it's to switch to a more digestible and feline-appropriate product altogether; for most, that's canned. I agree, canned is optimum, in most cases, but a lot of times, not possible. Lucky for example, for more than I try, could not feed on canned - believe you me I TRIED. I tried to have all my cats on canned only. I tried junk canned, high quality, raw, everything - lucky runs from canned or anything that is not a kibble like the devil runs from the cross. There are people who due to schedule have to feed kibble. There are cats who, for a reason or another, do better on one kibble or another.
On kibbles, it seems generally to be better to have a grain than not, in preventing UTIs. Again, I am referring to kibbles. Of course having no kibbles at all would be best - possible? Not always.
If I could turn back on time, If I could just not have put Bugsy on that high protein dry grain-free kibble, I swear, I would do everything today to do so. But I can't....
I know the theory about obligate carnivores and all that... But the bottom line is that kibbles are not a natural diet, and they just seem to perform better when containing a grain in preventing UTI. This is comparing Kibbles to kibbles - not kibbles to cans or raw; that would be the same as comparing apples and oranges IMHO.
And you're not crazy, Carolina, you're a good cat mom doing the best you can under some pretty doggone tight constrictions. But then, of course, you don't need me to tell you that!Thank you Auntie, you too... I admire your passion and all you do for your kitties too
AC
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Actually, I meant just about the opposite, as in professional business environment (global defense company; I'm ex-military) 45 - 50 hour weeks. Although I was trying to indicate that the depth of my dismay was in part because my personal time was limited, the truth is I'd probably feel just as passionate about this topic if I was a free-lance writer with all the time in the world on my hands.
Unfortunately, canned food feeders are missing that point and are becoming concerned.
On all of these points, we are in full agreement.
<<<HUGS>>> I'm so sorry, Carolina.
I don't know if you've tried this, or if it's even on the table for you today, but Whole Life produces some freeze-dried meat treats and both the chicken and the cod are one hundred percent irresistible to all six of my cats. I sprinkle either of these lightly over those meats and organs they occasionally turn away from (kidney sometimes, for instance) and the cats always eat the foods (I think the act of licking the treat off the meat or organ causes them to forget they didn't want to eat it in the first place and once the sprinkles are all gone, they just keep on eating)... maybe they would be helpful to you, too?
I feel for you, Carolina. I know we are miles and miles apart, but if there is ever anything I can do for you or your kitties, please let me know.
AC
Hello my friends. I just did'n't know Carolina ond others have had bad experiences feeding grain free dry to their cats. I've read a lot and never read that online. I only found good things and good experiences. It is good to know you had that experience Carolina.
I just don't know what to do anymore. Lucas eats some canned, the Blue wilderness duck grain free. He is eating just a little every afternoon, but a little is better than nothing. I just wish I knew for sure that Lucas has a problem with grains, I'm just not sure.
I'm spending a lot of money in his food because I have to order it online, I can't travel 3 hours to Petsmart to get the food so I have to order online and the shipping is so expensive. I just want to maek sure I'm helping him, not harming him, Lucas doesn't need to have urinary problems along with the other problems he has.
Tammy
I just don't know what to do anymore. Lucas eats some canned, the Blue wilderness duck grain free. He is eating just a little every afternoon, but a little is better than nothing. I just wish I knew for sure that Lucas has a problem with grains, I'm just not sure.
I'm spending a lot of money in his food because I have to order it online, I can't travel 3 hours to Petsmart to get the food so I have to order online and the shipping is so expensive. I just want to maek sure I'm helping him, not harming him, Lucas doesn't need to have urinary problems along with the other problems he has.
Tammy
