Frankenprey for Marble and Pebble

[thephcatlady]

Ever since I learned that dried cat food have a ton of wheat and stuff that's more beneficial for cows than cats 

 I've decided to try raw feeding in the form of frankenprey to my two DSH boys Marble and Pebble.

I'm sorry if this is a little lengthy, as I'm intent on giving as much information as I can.

I got some advice from another thread about feeding Frankenprey to them, as this might be a more economically-sound route for me to take. I started yesterday and boy am I already tired and lost. I need ya'll to check my work, as this is literally the first time I'm doing this.

The vet suggested canned wet food as a diet switch that could benefit Marble, and I figured it would also be good for Pebble if he got more moisture and less wheaty stuff in his diet. "Good" dried food that has more meat than wheat in it is simply not in my budget and I want them to be the healthy little carnivores that they could be.

So I decided to give them raw feeding via frankenprey, get them used to the smell and taste of it, and give them canned food with the diet as well. First question: Should there be a schedule for this? Like Monday-Wednesday-Friday canned, Tuesdays, Thursdays and the weekends frankenprey? I understand full frankenprey diet is not enough for them but how should I supplement that?

I have a tube of Virbac nutri-plus gel, its got fats, crude protein, carbohydrates, Fiber, minerals, along with the regular vitamin content of supplements. I was told this was not "just" vitamins. I'll post the contents of it again later. The vet (who's a bit of a hack) suggested I give 1/2 teaspoon of it a day, but since they're not vitamins they might be getting too much and turn overweight.

I bought half a kilo of gizzard, half a kilo of pork liver (chicken liver was too expensive) and pig intestines. I couldn't get hearts but I'm gonna try today and mix that in. I also couldn't get anyone to grind it for me and getting a grinder is out of budget so I chopped it up in small, kitty mouth bite sized pieces. It was a real chore but I managed it. Just a bit of pork liver (two or three pieces per serving) and the rest is gizzard and intestines. Second question: is the muscle meat imperative in this mix?

At first serving, my Marble took to it right away. He tried a few bites and he went through a quarter of his dish. Pebble, though, not so much. I was thinking he'd be the first on the stuff, being the little panther of the house, but he sniffs at it and walks away meowing! 

 My sister suggested I cook some, so I heated the stuff in a pan a bit.  When Marble saw it he walked away. When I kinda rubbed some on his mouth he recognized it as his beloved frankenprey and snarfed most of his plate down. Pebble still didn't want any of it! Even after gently sliding a piece into his mouth. He'd drop it, sniff at it, and walk away. I keep a plate of dried kibble close, but he doesn't like the kibble either. He'd inhale a packet of Smartheart Chicken, Mackerel and rice, though. So he's not averse to any food. He just lost his appetite for much kibble and does not want any of the frankenprey.

Third question: Is this normal resistance behavior? Should I insist on the frankenprey? He's still gonna get some canned food, I just thought maybe this would be good for him, too?

I only heated the stuff as a "bribe," I know I cooked the nutrients away with what I did but it's their first day. This morning I cooked some and left the rest raw. Marble still ate some, but not all of it. Pebble didn't have a single bite. 

 Pebble won't have any frankenprey and he ate very little kibble.

I keep the kibble available to them so as not to "shock" their systems into a suddenly-all-wet diet, since they've been on kibble their whole lives. Both of them still eat a bit of the stuff, although not so much as before anymore. They've developed the preference for wet. I'm thinking this might be the right thing to do, seeing as they manifest no symptoms of shock transition like pudding poopie or less water intake. They still both drink a lot of water.

I read in a site that they're used to smelly food, and cooking it made it extra smelly to be honest. I'm not sure what's setting Pebble off from the frankenprey that Marble happily eats. I observed their excretions and poopie's still formed, nothing weird has happened as of yet, and the frankenprey I put away for the dog to eat cos I'm concerned with meat freshness. It's fresh or it's gone. It didn't last more than 2 hours on the cat dishes last night. Unfinished morsels were given to the dog, which she inhaled. 

I tried setting a piece down on the floor for Pebble, cos frankenprey in a kitty dish might be setting him off because of how it looks to him. Still nothing. He'd walk away from the food, come back, sniff, walk away, rub my leg a few times then sniff at the food again. Is there something I'm missing?

Help would be so very much appreciated from the experienced frankenprey/raw feeders. Please bear with me (and my ignorance) as this is something all brand new to me.

 

[vball91]

Ok, so you already know that as long as the frankenprey is less than 15% of the total diet you don't need to worry about balancing it. Just don't feed too much liver. The percentages you want to get to are 80/10/5/5. That's meat/bone/liver/other secreting organ. Remember that heart/gizzard/any none secreting organ is considered meat. You want to feed as many parts of the animal as possible and as many different animals as possible. Remember that dark meats have more taurine than white meats. Hearts have a lot of taurine.

You don't need to keep to a schedule per se, but you do need to keep track of what they are eating. I find a food journal works for me right now because things change so much during transition. When you get to the point when you are feeding 100% frankenprey, most people make up weekly menus and balance over a week's worth rather than trying to balance each meal.

As for transitioning Pebble, try putting some frankenprey next to her wet food and let her get used to it. It might take a while for her to recognize it as food. It's good that Marble seems to like it already!

If you haven't already, check out the Resources Thread at the top of this forum. There's so much great info there. I'm slowly going through the transition threads, and it's really comforting to read about the various transition issues that other members had. Eventually though, they were successful in going raw, so there's hope for us all.

 

[thephcatlady]

Ok, so you already know that as long as the frankenprey is less than 15% of the total diet you don't need to worry about balancing it. Just don't feed too much liver. The percentages you want to get to are 80/10/5/5. That's meat/bone/liver/other secreting organ. Remember that heart/gizzard/any none secreting organ is considered meat. You want to feed as many parts of the animal as possible and as many different animals as possible. Remember that dark meats have more taurine than white meats. Hearts have a lot of taurine.
 

How do I know if I'm giving too much liver? And is that measurement by serving? I don't have that grams weighing scale thing for food, but I do have the generic teaspoon/tablespoon measurement things and measurements by cup. The ones sold in supermarkets as a set. Can I use that?

Also I heard there was Arginine toxicity. Is there such a thing as taurine toxicity from too much taurine? Is that why I can't give too much liver?

You don't need to keep to a schedule per se, but you do need to keep track of what they are eating. I find a food journal works for me right now because things change so much during transition. When you get to the point when you are feeding 100% frankenprey, most people make up weekly menus and balance over a week's worth rather than trying to balance each meal.

Aw man I don't know about 100% frankenprey. I'll take to the resources you told me about but I read in one article that my boys can get really bad really fast if I don't give them the right portions and that freaked me out. 

I read the basics in nutrition from the resources.  Does frankenprey have all of those stuff they listed as important to cats? I've done research on it myself, but I'm not sure which to go on. Some say it's not enough and that I need to put supplements in it, some say it's the diet of cats in the wild and it sustains them with all the hunting and stuff. 

So I guess the question is when is supplements required?

Originally Posted by vball91  
If you haven't already, check out the Resources Thread at the top of this forum. There's so much great info there. I'm slowly going through the transition threads, and it's really comforting to read about the various transition issues that other members had. Eventually though, they were successful in going raw, so there's hope for us all.

The resources gave me a good idea about getting Pebble to eat his frankenprey!

Pebble loves his cheese. He would eat a brick of it if he could. Although it's not parmesan. It's cheddar cheese he likes. I sprinkled some grated cheese on the bottom of his plate and dumped some frankenprey mixed with catfood on top. Dinner time comes and he was trying to eat around it, but since he couldn't he ate through it!

I near jumped for joy at this development, since I read that it sometimes takes cats 3 + months to even have a bite of raw. He would chew on some bits then manage to get it to fall from his mouth, but he still ate half his plate of frankenprey.

While I was doing some of my own research I already came across those resources you told me about on google, turns out. The next thing I'm gonna do is to read through threads of transitions to collect more tricks and see some developmental changes to expect so I don't freak out at changes.

Thanks so much for this, vball91, I have the patience of a goldfish when it comes to feeding the boys like this. I know it's only the 2nd day but Pebble not eating was really concerning me and scaring me into thinking I might give a perfectly healthy cat hepatic lipidosis, even if I did leave dry cat food out and changed the water three times. I'm a huge worrywart.

I also happily report that no adverse effects on their behavior have happened so far. They're still as sweet as they could be. I think Marble even likes the raw food transition. He started sitting on the computer table and closing his eyes and yawning at me. I read in one of the threads here (forgot which) that that's a friendly gesture.

How long do you keep your raw food out? Our heat can reach Nevada desert levels. I was in Texas a couple of years back and the heat when it's afternoon gets to that temperature here.

 

[ritz]

So many questions, better to ask than assume you know the answer.

How much liver:  if you're feeding 100% frakenprey--well, you shouldn't be if you don't have a digital scale that measures to the grams.  Balancing is that important.  If you're feeding 15% or less, you don't need to worry about feeding liver.  That said, the eye ball method is roughly 1 teaspoon of liver. 

Too much liver is a bad thing because of Vitamin A toxicity; but it is hard to reach the level of toxicity.  Turkey liver is especially high in Vitamin A.

Taurine is water soluble vitamin; if you by chance feed too much to the cat, he'll excrete it in his urine.

Frankenprey has all the stuff cats need IF you feed the recommended percentages.

Have you thought about first starting with commercial raw.  CR has the same look and consistency of wet food, only it's raw, and has the correct percentages.  Rad Cat, Nature's Variety and Bravo are just a few, and you can find them in high-end pet food stores or online.

You shouldn't keep raw food out for longer than around 20 to 30 minutes, IMO, if it is hot in your house/apartment.  That also is good training for the cats, they know they have to eat in 20 minutes or wait until the next meal. (I use to live in a condo where even with the ac going 24x7, the temp inside would only get down to around 80 to 82.)

As a topper, you could try fish flakes.  Or even a little dehydrated liver!  Both smell a little, which to cats is a good thing.

Let us know how things go.

 

[thephcatlady]

I have a pretty fair judgement of the percentages. I've been giving them that much liver: roughly a teaspoon. I bought a whole pig liver, but I chucked the rest to the dog because I still wasn't sure how much. I'll have to get just half next time. That stuff smelled the nastiest and I was second guessing it the whole week! Nothing adverse happened because of the liver.

The thing is over here, we don't have commercial raw food like Rad Cat and Nature's variety. We have supermarket raw food, but it's for dogs and I don't know what's in the stuff. They consist of butcher's scraps and that does fit the bill, but I decided to make my own frankenprey instead cos heaven knows what additives they put there. Its been such a chore cutting up the stuff and I'll have to get scissors but I'm adamant (and poor so it's not like I can feed them anything else haha.) I read somewhere that grinding it greatly depletes the moisture, and the weather over here can evaporate half a cup of water left out. I was thinking they'll need the moisture.

They've been doing well so far. Pebble finally started to "get it" and ate the same stuff I was giving Marble today! 

 Still pig intestines, pig liver and chicken gizzard. Good thing too cos I don't think I can take 3 months of us playing diet ping pong like others that switched their cats to raw. I gave them a cut up chicken breast and they loved it! I've been feeding them 3-4 times a day cos they've been free fed kibble this whole time and they cry when they're hungry. The crying breaks my heart. 

 But I'll slowly make it 2 meals a day.

The advice here really helped me so much. I'm sorry about the ton of questions, but I get nervous when it's my babies. It used to be easy with the commercial wet food. There wasn't much to it except reading the ingredients. Buying the ingredients that would fit something they'd live on is tough. I really appreciate all the input. I'll definitely be keeping it in mind.

 

[peaches08]

I believe the percentages are by weight rather than volume...just an FYI!

 

[ritz]

Yes, the percentages are by weight (to the 0.1 gram), not by volume. Another example is:  ice cube trays, each cube holds *approximately* 1 oz of meat/liver.   Which is why I recommend you get a digital scale--it's a necessity if you go more than 15% frankenprey.  But always weigh food to be sure; eye balling not healthy or accurate.