Ethical breeding?

[ut0pia]

I'm so curious, I know absolutely nothing about breeding, but why in the world would you need papers for a breed such as a sphynx? Isn't it clearly obvious whether the cat is a sphynx?? I mean, even I would recognize a sphynx. Does the government regulate breeders to make sure they are not making the cats commit incest and mess up the gene pool??? Is that a reason?? It would be nice if the government did that.

 

[nekkiddoglady]

We do free-feed the cats here, so she has access to get what she wants.. Tabbi is abit overweight because of it... she has lost some tho since we moved into the house.. I went thru a divorce a few years ago and moved in with my parents, and she gained weight then... she's been happier here, playing with the other cats and more active. Too bad we cant do fat transplants.. I'd give Tabbi's extra flab to Bastet LOL.

Ive been feeding her abit extra to add to the dry kibble to encourage her to eat more.. some canned food, and a few extra treats. I didnt think of using kitten food.. next time I go to the store I will get some.

 

[nekkiddoglady]

I think papers are more to track pedigrees than to proove if the animal is a purebred.

Even with dogs, a Crested is obviously a Crested, a German Shepherd is obviously a german shepherd.. but using a registry service is a means of accuratly keeping track of pedigrees and parentage. Its important to research the pedigree when breeding to understand flaws and genetics in the animal's background.

 

[mews2much]

I can trace Cleos papers way back and ordered the 5th generation from Tica.
Papers prove they are purebreds.

 

[nekkiddoglady]

I just got a pic of her belly.. you can see what I mean.

I dont know when she had her kittens. Im told she's about 2 years old.. I dont think it was very long ago because her nipples are still abit enlarged, but that could also be because she's in heat.

 

[epona]

Originally Posted by ut0pia

I'm so curious, I know absolutely nothing about breeding, but why in the world would you need papers for a breed such as a sphynx? Isn't it clearly obvious whether the cat is a sphynx?? I mean, even I would recognize a sphynx. Does the government regulate breeders to make sure they are not making the cats commit incest and mess up the gene pool??? Is that a reason?? It would be nice if the government did that.

The papers are needed to register the kittens, or to enter in shows. If you cannot register the kittens then you can't sell them as pedigree kittens, because there is no pedigree (the going rate for a non-pedigree kitten is the same as your local cat-rescue adoption fee for a stray).

The papers are needed if you want to find a stud, because no ethical breeder will agree to their stud being bred to a queen without breeding rights - those rights are detailed in the papers.

How do you know that you're not about to breed your cat to its brother and potentially end up with health problems? The papers and pedigree.

How do you decide on whether you want to concentrate on dilutes, tabbies, colourpoint, etc - you won't know unless you have the pedigree.

People do not generally breed cats with the intention of giving their little girl and boy kittens away to be bred by other people without their consent. In the UK with the GCCF, if a breeder does not register a kitten on what is called the "active register" then the kittens it produces can NEVER be registered or shown, and you can never sell kittens to someone at the usual price for the breed unless you are operating a scam or deception (which could land you in court being sued!)

People will not let you bring your queen to their stud unless you have papers, and proof of negative test results for FIV and FeLV (in the UK stud owners insist on that test being done and results obtained within the 24 hours before taking your queen to stud) - you cannot do this without the correct papers, no good breeder will let an unpapered queen breed with their stud, as their name and the reputation of their cattery is at stake.

Sphynx are not the only hairless cat - it's a mutated gene that has a small chance of happening at any time, anywhere, in any litter, in any breed, or in a moggy. A hairless cat is not necessarily a sphynx (and sphynx were a breed originating from a random hairless moggy after all, weren't they?!) So yes you do need papers to prove your hairless cat is a pedigree sphynx.

 

[nekkiddoglady]

sphynx are not the only hairless cat.. there is also the peterbald.

Yes the breed did originate from some hairless kittens that appeared in a litter from a moggy in Canada.

 

[epona]

Just to say I realised my last post might have come across as if I were a bit cross, but that was not my intention at all, I have problems judging tone sometimes so if I came across badly or came on too strong please forgive me!

Looking at the belly of your lovely girl I would say she is a little skinny but probably still gaining condition after her last litter - nothing to worry about, just plenty of good quality food and at least a years rest from looking after little'uns

 

[mews2much]

She is thin.
Peterbalds are pretty cool.
My next cat will be a peterbald,sphynx or rex.
I will get one after I show cleo a few times.

 

[ut0pia]

Well, are cats that were randomly born hairless able to produce hairless kittens if bred with a sphynx or does that happen after many many generations of selective breeding? The only point from all that, that I get is it's important that kittens aren't bred to their siblings or relatives...All the other registering and showing stuff seems like human silliness to me lol. That's why I'd never get a purebred cat, it just seems silly to me to breed selectively in order to change the features of what evolution itself created. But then again, so many animals are a product of human selective breeding, like all farm animals. Anyway I'm digressing and I don't mean to hijack the thread..

 

[nekkiddoglady]

its hard to come off with the right tone with written words too.. its all too easy to sound harsh, when you dont intend to sound that way!

Its also easy to come off as harsh when topics of breeding are concerned.. it can be a touchy subject at times.

I didnt think she was a sickly thin, but just not where her weight is suppossed to be at.

Im leaning more towards getting her spayed.. was my intentions anyways.. I said I'd research and think about it.. I was curious anyways tho as to what was considered ethical when breeding cats.. I had wondered about it months ago, but this prompted me to really ask and research.

 

[epona]

Originally Posted by ut0pia

Well, are cats that were randomly born hairless able to produce hairless kittens if bred with a sphynx or does that happen after many many generations of selective breeding? The only point from all that, that I get is it's important that kittens aren't bred to their siblings or relatives...All the other registering and showing stuff seems like human silliness to me lol. That's why I'd never get a purebred cat, it just seems silly to me to breed selectively in order to change the features of what evolution itself created. But then again, so many animals are a product of human selective breeding, like all farm animals. Anyway I'm digressing and I don't mean to hijack the thread..

The whole point about selective breeding is to preserve features that nature created, it is impossible to change them - nature has to come up with it in the first place, we can't create those features from nothing, it's absolutely impossible to do that

I am very much in favour of breeding - the Siamese, Rex cats, hairless cats, longhaired cats, even red/orange/ginger/tortoishell/solid coloured cats are all created by nature in the first place as a mutation from the original blotched tabby wildcat and then selectively bred, selective breeding is about preserving different features and breeds so they don't die out and disappear from the genepool.

It is not possible to create something new from nothing, nature always provides the blueprint.

 

[mews2much]

She is just thin for a sphynx.
Not sick looking.
I had a fight with a breeder over cleo.
This woman wanted me to breed her with her male because cleo has better lines and after I said she was being fixed before I get her she quit talking to me.
Then when I wrote my sister was stuck between a rex and sphynx she wrote me.
Theres alot more that I can not post here.
I can pm what happened.

 

[ut0pia]

Yea, it makes sense to look at it that way. I was thinking that nature would get rid of these features because a lot of time they are disadvantageous to the cats, like being hairless. But i know that it's not like these cats have to fend for themselves, their humans take extreme good care of them..

 

[epona]

Originally Posted by mews2much

She is just thin for a sphynx.
Not sick looking.

That's my take on it too, she just needs to gain a little weight, it's nothing major, and understandable if she may have had a litter not long ago that she is a little underweight at the moment, pregnancy and nursing use up those reserves and can be physically draining!

IMO your cat (mews2much) looks to be a really good build and weight, a little tummy pouch which is natural and healthy (provides protection for the abdominal organs in a species which in the wild would scrap over territory).

Would love to see more pictures of all of her though

 

[mews2much]

I have alot more pics.

 

[missymotus]

Originally Posted by Epona

a little tummy pouch which is natural and healthy

I remember hearing a judge at a show say the Sphynx is the only breed that has a "jelly belly" written in the standard.

 

[nekkiddoglady]

its up to you if you want to PM or not.. I dont want to pry into anyone's personal buisiness.. but on the other hand if there's something relevant to learn about this topic, I'd be interested.

 

[epona]

Originally Posted by ut0pia

Yea, it makes sense to look at it that way. I was thinking that nature would get rid of these features because a lot of time they are disadvantageous to the cats, like being hairless. But i know that it's not like these cats have to fend for themselves, their humans take extreme good care of them..

That is the whole point - nature and evolution would wipe out red/ginger cats, because they aren't well camouflaged in most places, but it hasn't, because over the last few hundred years people have sought them out as special and fed them and cared for them.

It's the same for hairless cats, rex cats, solid coloured cats, and ultra shorthairs. They are all accidents of nature, but they are all special, treasured, loved, and cared for - sure if they were all left to fend for themselves the hairless cats would die out as would the rexes and the ultra-shorthairs in a harsh winter, but as humans we are beyond letting that happen, aren't we?

BTW there are MANY naturally occuring rex breeds that have already become extinct due to lack of interest - the German Rex and Boston Rex for example are no more - this makes me very sad and I am sure it is not what any of us wants, if we really think about it instead of just dismissing it - but it takes breeders and selective breeding programmes to conserve rare breeds, and I think it is a valuable endeavour to do so.

 

[mews2much]

I was talking about the german rex tonight with a rex breeder.
They are bringing the breed back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Rex