English Language

[swampwitch]

Originally Posted by sarahp

Haha that's all stuff I consider normal speak!

What else would you do to a debit card if not swipe it??

We'd "use" the debit card, or "run it through." Where I'm from, swiping means stealing!

Originally Posted by ut0pia

standing in line ups? I've never heard of that one...

It's the same as standing in line... it only sounds like there is a one-way mirror with the victim on the other side, possibly identifying you as his or her perpetrator...


You'll be in a line-up if you swipe a debit card in Texas, but not in Canada!

 

[yosemite]

This thread has gone a bit off-topic in that I don't have issues with using different expressions to mean different things in other countries, i.e., knocking someone up in England is much different than knocking someone up in North America. That isn't what I started this thread about. I am concerned our knowledge and correct usage of the language is being lost. One poster mentioned the use of "effect" and "affect" - many people don't know the difference or why one would be used instead of the other. Also, I see so many instances of people using too instead of to and it is used too many times to be a typo which indicates they actually do not know the difference. These are the types of things that I worry about.

Using cheque in Canada instead of check, colour instead of color, neighbour instead of neighbor, etc. are not an issue for me. I just read it and say, oh that person is obviously American if the words are spelled incorrectly.

I work in the Canadian office of an American company and when corresponding with them regarding "cheques", I write "cheque". They reply using "check".

 

[calico2222]

Originally Posted by RubSluts'Mommy

As for those replacements that bug me within the accepted English... I just caught someone here over in IMO using one of those that bugs the snot outta me (yes, when I'm typing informally, I do use odd things like 'outta' ... it's the fiction writer in me... my characters can't ALL speak proper English)...

Affect and Effect.

Gaaaaahhhhh!!!!!


Amanda

Ok, let me ask...was that me??

Those are two words that always confuse me and I have to think about them. I was actually going to post that those are hard but you beat me to it. Thanks for explaining it again...my MLA english book is packed up somewhere and I KNOW I have that page marked.

I agree that any language changes over the years, but we are talking about laziness over the last few decades. For example, here is Canterbury Tales by Chaucer in middle english:

http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/457.html

And Beowulf in old English:

http://www8.georgetown.edu/departmen...exts/a4.1.html

Yeah, in order to understand Beowulf you basically have to take a class in old English...or have a teacher to translate it.

The evoloution of English is amazing, but what this is referring to isn't a change that happened over hundreds years, it's a change with spelling, grammer and context not being emphasized in recent years. I remember diagraming sentences and having spelling tests. I will admit, I'm rusty when it comes to both because I haven't had to use them every day and spelling was hard for me. But there is NO reason to not teach it in schools now. It's the same as math....if you don't teach the basics, how do they understand what the calculator or computer is doing? Same goes for the language. I agree, it's a hard language because it's a little bit of everything, but I learned it so kids now a days can't be more stupid than I.

 

[rockcat]

Originally Posted by calico2222

Ok, let me ask...was that me??

Those are two words that always confuse me and I have to think about them.

I'm glad I'm not alone, because I'm pretty sure it's me!

 

[catlover19]

I can't stand bad spelling and grammar. The one thing that really bothers me is when people say "aks" instead of "ask." I was watching my favourite tv show on Monday and one of the guys on the show kept saying aks and everytime he said it, I would say outloud to my fiance "It's not aks, its ASK."

 

[rockcat]

Originally Posted by RubSluts'Mommy

As for those replacements that bug me within the accepted English... I just caught someone here over in IMO using one of those that bugs the snot outta me (yes, when I'm typing informally, I do use odd things like 'outta' ... it's the fiction writer in me... my characters can't ALL speak proper English)...

Affect and Effect.

Gaaaaahhhhh!!!!!

Think of these this way:

Effect: (Noun, usually) it's already happened (with some exceptions, mind you, like Special Effects).
Affect: (Verb, usually) action word, to make something happen. You don't effect change, you AFFECT it. effect is the result, if you will... most of the time... read on...

Here's something from Washington State University's website:

There are five distinct words here. When “affect†is accented on the final syllable (a-FECT), it is usually a verb meaning “have an influence onâ€: “The million-dollar donation from the industrialist did not affect my vote against the Clean Air Act.â€

Occasionally a pretentious person is said to affect an artificial air of sophistication. Speaking with a borrowed French accent or ostentatiously wearing a large diamond ear stud might be an affectation. In this sort of context, “affect†means “to make a display of or deliberately cultivate.â€

Another unusual meaning is indicated when the word is accented on the first syllable (AFF-ect), meaning “emotion.†In this case the word is used mostly by psychiatrists and social scientists—people who normally know how to spell it.

The real problem arises when people confuse the first spelling with the second: “effect.†This too can be two different words. The more common one is a noun: “When I left the stove on, the effect was that the house filled with smoke.†When you affect a situation, you have an effect on it.

The less common is a verb meaning “to createâ€: “Iâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]m trying to effect a change in the way we purchase widgets.†No wonder people are confused. Note especially that the proper expression is not “take affect†but “take effectâ€â€”become effective. Hey, nobody ever said English was logical: just memorize it and get on with your life.

The stuff in your purse? Your personal effects.

The stuff in movies? Sound effects and special effects.


Amanda

As much as I hate to admit it, I still don't completely get it. For instance, if your carpet is water damaged, is it affected carpet? The water had an effect on the carpet. We removed the affected carpet. ???

Sorry I bug the snot outta you.

 

[threecatowner]

I'm a stickler for spelling and grammar, and I don't use text speak or shortened forms anywhere - it drives me nuts. It takes the same amount of time to spell correctly. If you don't have enough characters to spell properly what you need to say in a text message, then call the person

/QUOTE]

I so, so agree with you! My son brought home his high school yearbook a couple of years ago, and I was appalled! Words were misspelled and grammar was poor on EVERY SINGLE PAGE. I nearly called the school and offered to be their copy editor the following year. Our small town newspaper is the same.

I live in West Virginia; we have long been believed to be a bunch of illiterate, inbred rednecks. Of course, that's not true. But these above examples certainly don't help our case.

I truly believe this is a direct result of the texting craze. Okay, I'm showing my age (49), but I've never texted in my life. And do you know that when I type the words "texting" and "texted", my spell-check does not recognize them?
Interesting...

 

[swampwitch]

Originally Posted by Yosemite

This thread has gone a bit off-topic in that I don't have issues with using different expressions to mean different things in other countries...

My point was that we shouldn't fight it... whether language is changing over time or whether it's changed because of where we are. The point I was trying to make is that I believe it's useless to get upset over it, I'd rather adapt.

Originally Posted by Rockcat

...For instance, if your carpet is water damaged, is it affected carpet? The water had an effect on the carpet. We removed the affected carpet. ???:

That's correct, looks like you've got it.

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by SwampWitch

My point was that we shouldn't fight it... whether language is changing over time or whether it's changed because of where we are. The point I was trying to make is that I believe it's useless to get upset over it, I'd rather adapt.

I got your point but unfortunately I don't think adapting to slang and less than quality English is the answer. Adding words to our current language or having a different context to a word in another country isn't an issue with me at all.

Sadly I am seeing more and more instances that indicate new generations have no idea of spelling, grammar and general everyday use of the language. I hear young people talking and after every couple words they say, "you know" or "like". The overuse and misuse of the word "like" in everyday conversation by many young people makes me crazy. Example: You know, like, I went to the store, like, and there were like 20 different kinds of soup, like, you know. This is terrible English! I sincerely hope we don't "adapt" to that form of speaking.

 

[swampwitch]

Originally Posted by Yosemite

...The overuse and misuse of the word "like" in everyday conversation by many young people makes me crazy. Example: You know, like, I went to the store, like, and there were like 20 different kinds of soup, like, you know. This is terrible English! I sincerely hope we don't "adapt" to that form of speaking.

I'd rather adapt than go crazy!

 

[ut0pia]

Originally Posted by Yosemite

Sadly I am seeing more and more instances that indicate new generations have no idea of spelling, grammar and general everyday use of the language. I hear young people talking and after every couple words they say, "you know" or "like". The overuse and misuse of the word "like" in everyday conversation by many young people makes me crazy. Example: You know, like, I went to the store, like, and there were like 20 different kinds of soup, like, you know. This is terrible English! I sincerely hope we don't "adapt" to that form of speaking.

I use the word like a lot. But not as much as you did in your example lol. The way i'd say it would be "i went to the store and there was like 20 different kinds of soup"
You know what I found HILARIOUS before I knew any american slang was when I heard someone say
" And I was like" ....It's just funny because it makes absolutely no sense and it didn't to me back then..I felt as though I was speaking to a four year old trying to explain his gestures to me, but then instead of saying what they're like they will instead tell me what they said..

example:
"And I was like no you're wrong and then she was like no i ain't"
lol
Or I still hear people say this "And i'm sittin' there goin' like what u talkin bout"
Honestly, I'm always startled by people who talk like this because I don't know how to talk to them I'm afraid that when they hear me speak proper English they will think i'm totally weird or that i'm doing it on purpose just to show off! haha
I don't think we're going to adapt to this kind of speech. I just dont' see it happening.

 

[rubsluts'mommy]

Originally Posted by calico2222

Ok, let me ask...was that me??

Those are two words that always confuse me and I have to think about them. I was actually going to post that those are hard but you beat me to it. Thanks for explaining it again...my MLA english book is packed up somewhere and I KNOW I have that page marked.

No, it wasn't. But i think it was someone who has posted in this thread

Originally Posted by Rockcat

I'm glad I'm not alone, because I'm pretty sure it's me!

Not you either....

Originally Posted by Rockcat

As much as I hate to admit it, I still don't completely get it. For instance, if your carpet is water damaged, is it affected carpet? The water had an effect on the carpet. We removed the affected carpet. ???

Sorry I bug the snot outta you.

But the phrase 'the water had an effect on the carpet' is a tired way of saying it... i.e. it sounds funny to me. (sorry, I learned how to write, but not all the terms that go with it... something like past present, I think there's a participle in there, or something... my grammar books are buried right now) ... you would normally say, "The water affected the carpet." it 'influenced' the carpet... here's an excerpt from what I posted earlier: When you affect a situation, you have an effect on it. I think of Affect as 'the action of' and Effect as the 'aftermath of' or the result.

The water (or you) affected a change in the carpet (or whatever you're changing). it is confusing. A lot of it depends on how you write the sentence... what you wrote above is correct, but the way I worded the same sentence is also correct... The English language is a pain to learn, especially American English. I've tutored in ESL, and I had a heck of a time working with my students...

Originally Posted by Yosemite

I hear young people talking and after every couple words they say, "you know" or "like". The overuse and misuse of the word "like" in everyday conversation by many young people makes me crazy. Example: You know, like, I went to the store, like, and there were like 20 different kinds of soup, like, you know. This is terrible English! I sincerely hope we don't "adapt" to that form of speaking.

It has pervaded more than just 'young people. I hear it a lot from folks of all ages here. I fell in to that as well, but only when I speak. I do not write that way. I think my writing 'slip' would be ellipses. I do make a conscious effort to not put them in my fiction, though... unless they're necessary.

I don't mind some of that, to a degree, but the rules are there for a reason, so we can ALL communicate in what is pretty much the same language. Yes, things change... not always for the better, but they've been changing way too fast and not out of a need to change... but (as I see it) a pure laziness to learn the accepted way. Text Speak, Thug Talk, Valley Girl are all variants of English... but if you put that cr** on a resume, anyone with half a brain reading it would toss it in the trash. In 40 years, that may not be the case. (I kinda hope I'm retired by then, so I don't have to deal with that).

I, for one, put in my online singles ads (yes, I do that, not like it's done much) that if you can't spell and use proper grammar, don't bother. (I also put if you don't like cats, keep walking). I still get men contacting me despite that... and they have horrid spelling! I have a 55 year old man who just emailed me through one... I read his email and just shuddered... he has a Bachelor's Degree... obviously didn't have any emphasis on grammar and spelling. Yes, it bugs me... and I could go on, but won't... I have lots to do today... and I'm getting chatty again...

Amanda

 

[rockcat]

Originally Posted by SwampWitch

That's correct, looks like you've got it.

YAY!

 

[rockcat]

Originally Posted by RubSluts'Mommy

No, it wasn't. But i think it was someone who has posted in this thread



Not you either....



But the phrase 'the water had an effect on the carpet' is a tired way of saying it... i.e. it sounds funny to me. (sorry, I learned how to write, but not all the terms that go with it... something like past present, I think there's a participle in there, or something... my grammar books are buried right now) ... you would normally say, "The water affected the carpet." it 'influenced' the carpet... here's an excerpt from what I posted earlier: When you affect a situation, you have an effect on it. I think of Affect as 'the action of' and Effect as the 'aftermath of' or the result.

The water (or you) affected a change in the carpet (or whatever you're changing). it is confusing. A lot of it depends on how you write the sentence... what you wrote above is correct, but the way I worded the same sentence is also correct... The English language is a pain to learn, especially American English. I've tutored in ESL, and I had a heck of a time working with my students...

I know it was somewhat of a strange example.

I work in a field involving water damage mitigation. I'm glad I got it right, anyway. Thanks.

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by ut0pia

I use the word like a lot. But not as much as you did in your example lol. The way i'd say it would be "i went to the store and there was like 20 different kinds of soup"
You know what I found HILARIOUS before I knew any american slang was when I heard someone say
" And I was like" ....It's just funny because it makes absolutely no sense and it didn't to me back then..I felt as though I was speaking to a four year old trying to explain his gestures to me, but then instead of saying what they're like they will instead tell me what they said..

example:
"And I was like no you're wrong and then she was like no i ain't"
lol
Or I still hear people say this "And i'm sittin' there goin' like what u talkin bout"
Honestly, I'm always startled by people who talk like this because I don't know how to talk to them I'm afraid that when they hear me speak proper English they will think i'm totally weird or that i'm doing it on purpose just to show off! haha
I don't think we're going to adapt to this kind of speech. I just dont' see it happening.

I certainly hope not. I wonder if the people that cannot speak proper English even know proper English and that's where this whole question for me comes up. I find it hard to believe that people who have been taught proper English cannot speak it during ordinary conversations. I'm not talking about texting or chat room speak - I'm talking about everyday conversational speech and that seems to be seriously lacking IMO.

Originally Posted by SwampWitch

I'd rather adapt than go crazy!

Ah, but I'm so close that it would take so little to push me over the edge!

 

[rockcat]

I moved from Connecticut to Florida over 25 years ago. I promised myself that there are words I would never say, but then...

I said y'all. I waitressed and bartended then. I found that when I asked a group of people "what can I get you" I would get no response. I thought surely the word you is both singular and plural in this part of the country, but apparently not.

I found that by saying y'all, my job was easier.

One day I heard myself say "I'm fixin' to." I couldn't believe it.

I almost said "I reckon" last week, but I caught myself. They are not going to make me do it!

 

[ut0pia]

Originally Posted by Rockcat

I moved from Connecticut to Florida over 25 years ago. I promised myself that there are words I would never say, but then...

I said y'all. I waitressed and bartended then. I found that when I asked a group of people "what can I get you" I would get no response. I thought surely the word you is both singular and plural in this part of the country, but apparently not.

I found that by saying y'all, my job was easier.

One day I heard myself say "I'm fixin' to." I couldn't believe it.

I almost said "I reckon" last week, but I caught myself. They are not going to make me do it!

That's a big problem with the language itself, there is no way to say you in plural!

 

[swampwitch]

I remember trying to write a note to someone, years ago while still in Texas, and I was trying to figure out how to word it. I put:

"I tried to get aholt of you"

and then I thought, "aholt" is not a word!

So I wrote

"I tried to get ahold of you"

but that wasn't right, either, and I tore that up and finally wrote:

"I tried to reach you"

LOL!

"Aholt" is common in speech there but it sure looks crazy when you try to write it!

 

[jcat]

Originally Posted by RubSluts'Mommy

The water (or you) affected a change in the carpet (or whatever you're changing). it is confusing.

I'm sorry, but I believe you're confused, and should take a closer look at the rules you posted earlier. Use of the definite or indefinite article plays a role.

The less common is a verb meaning “to createâ€: “Iâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]m trying to effect a change in the way we purchase widgets.â€

The water affected the carpet, i.e., damaged or discolored the carpet

.

To "effect a change" is to bring about a change.

The recent outbreak of swine flu in Mexico has effected a change in Lufthansa's policies.

An example of what you're attempting to explain would be

Global warming has affected, i.e., altered, the change of seasons in some countries.

 

[rubsluts'mommy]

Originally Posted by jcat

I'm sorry, but I believe you're confused, and should take a closer look at the rules you posted earlier. Use of the definite or indefinite article plays a role.
To "effect a change" is to bring about a change.
An example of what you're attempting to explain would be

I never said I was perfect at grammar... but I've yet to be corrected in papers by professors. Maybe in grad school they'll look at it more closely... can't say.

I've seen much, much worse out there... and I already said I have never been really good on all the rules. I know how to write it, but explaining grammar was never my strongest suit. Which is why I'm not a grammar teacher...

the whole 'to effect a change' is a less common/less used way of saying it. AIt's also confusing. in its standard usage, which is what I've pretty much been commenting on from the start, is that Affect is the action/verb, and Effect is the noun. Are there exceptions? of course. Which is why English is so d*** confusing. But when folks are getting it mixed up in basic usage, that's the problem. For the most part, people need to remember that Affect is the action, Effect is the 'thing,' the noun. Using Effect as a verb is less common, and much more formal. In most instances, folks here in the U.S. don't need or use it. In business, sure. Politics, most likely. but the majority of people here aren't used to such formality in their language. Heck, I've seen business memos that are riddled with errors and more lax language. Is it kinda sad? Yes, but such is our society.

~A~