Dry Food Myths Revealed!

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

What is important is that cats get their required moisture intake for the day, and I believe this is easily achieved with mixed feeding and attractive clean water fountains.

Re: the bold : You are mistaken. I have one cat that will completely ignore a wet meal if he knows that a dry meal will come later in the day. Another very rarely drinks out of the water fountains that the others seem to love. She is also, not at all coincidentally I believe, prone to struvite crystals.

Originally Posted by Ducman

We can all agree on that, and hopefully keep non-factual misinformation and overly broad statements that are not universally true to a minimum

Just remember that goes for yourself as well.

Oh I almost forgot:

Directed at myself:

That's what makes my point conclusive and everyone who disagrees wrong, right? I wish I had known before that it was really that easy!

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by LDG

Thanks for the link to the Polish study on dry food and relationship to oral health. But the results of that study (and the qualifications mentioned in the protocols of the study are many) stand in stark contrast to almost every study done over the past number of decades here in the U.S.

There are numerous studies on dental benefits in dry diets, although more heavily focused on dogs and specifically designed dental formulations.

The Veterinary Oral Health Council uses specific detailed protocols to evaluate dental health food claims here in the United States and awards its seal accordingly to several dry foods and dental treats that have proven measurable results.

Texturized dry food does not need to be penetrated by a canine to come in contact with and thus scrape teeth ("Food texture and composition can directly affect the oral environment through (1) maintenance of tissue integrity, (2) alteration of the metabolism of plaque bacteria, (3) stimulation of salivary flow, and (4) cleansing of tooth and oral surfaces by appropriate physical contact."), although that is ideal and the reason that mechanical dental treats such as Greenies are quite large. It is also possible to coat kibble in polyphosphate which binds salivary calcium inhibiting plaque calcification, which cannot be effectively delivered in canned food. Mastication in and of itself has also shown benefits for gum health, which is unfortunately absent in commercial wet food since most are of a consistency that is licked up.

Common sense is unfortunately often lacking, or at least overlooked in certain comparisons such as likening dry food to a human eating a pretzel. A pretzel is comprised almost entirely of carbohydrates, not of meat, and will turn into a soft mushy consistency during chewing in the human mouth compared to dry food in cats that remains quite firm even after a while in a cat's highly acidic stomach, as any cat owner that has had his or her cat vomit at some point realized.

Here are the results of various other studies if you wish to google the study and their findings:

Logan E, et al. (2000): Certain treats and diets assist in the prevention of calculus accumulation and gingivitis.

Roudebush P, et al. (2005): Good evidence for the use of dental treats, chew aids and formulated diets for control of plaque and calculus.

Theyse L, et al. (2003): Home care methods that included a specially formulated dental diet were more effective at preventing plaque accumulation.

Boyce E (1992): Cats eating the dry food had significantly less plaque at the end of the week than cats eating the canned soft food.

Logan E (1996): Cats fed the dental food had less plaque accumulation than cats fed the control food

Hennet P, et al. (2007): Increasing kibble diameter by 50.0 percent was associated with a 42.0 percent calculus reduction. Coating the kibbles with sodium tripolyphosphate (STPP), an anti-calculus agent, further induced a 55.0 percent calculus reduction. Sodium tripolyphosphate was shown to be at least as effective as sodium hexametaphosphate.

Servet E, et al. (2009): The diet with rectangular kibbles and STPP plus PRN
had a greater reduction in generalized and gingival plaque at days 7 and 28 than the other diets. Cats eating this diet also had less calculus at days 28 and 56 than cats eating the other diets.

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by Jinxywinx

I find the two perspectives very interesting.
I admit I am clueless about this and didn't even realize that a debate existed. In our house, wet food is a treat, and dry food is the norm. Our vet is very adamant about us feeding our cats dry food and not wet, though he has never explained why that was.

I am not sure which option is best for any of my cats, but I appreciate having the opportunity to see the different sides of this subject so that I may research further on my own and walk into my next vet appointment as an informed individual!

If you're interested in understanding how feline health is impacted by what they're eating, Jinxywinx, you might enjoy the Feline Nutrition Education Society's site, feline-nutrition.org. They tackle feline health from several nutritional angles, discuss a plethora of topics (IBD, urinary tract issues, diabetes, etc.), and post answers to questions that have been sent to them.

Originally Posted by LDG

...

Quality food is quality food. Junk food is junk food. Genetics are genetics.

The fact of the matter is that cats are obligate carnivores.

We switched our cats to an all wet diet last year, after having improved the quality of the wet/dry mix we'd been feeding them in 2008. We thought they were thriving before. We thought their coats were thick, soft, and glossy before. And they were. But they have more energy now, and their coats are even thicker, softer, and glossier than they were.

Debate away. For me, the results are something I play with, pet, and snuggle every day now.

Amen. (Emphasis is mine.)

I can tell you from my own experience and that of dozens of people I've worked with in the years since - until you've made the switch, you just don't have any idea how much better, healthier, and more alive your cats can be - will be - on a species-appropriate diet.

AC

 

[ldg]

Let's also (me included) not try to .... massage the "evidence."

http://www.ebvet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=400

Evidence Based Veterinary Dentistry

There are currently seven commercially available pet foods that have received recognition by the Veterinary Oral Health Council as having a significant effect on plaque, calculus. These are Prescription DietÂ[emoji]174[/emoji] Canine t/d Original Bites and Small Bites, New and Improved Prescription DietÂ[emoji]174[/emoji] Feline t/d, FriskiesÂ[emoji]174[/emoji] Feline Dental Diet, Science Diet Â[emoji]174[/emoji] Oral Care Diet for Dogs and Science DietÂ[emoji]174[/emoji] Oral Care Diet for cats.

The mechanism of action for these diets is based on the physical properties of the kibble. Each nugget is quite large and so must be chewed before swallowing. The nuggets are hard, but not brittle, and so the teeth sink deep into the nugget before it splits. As the tooth is penetrating the nugget, the fibers in the food gently abrade the tooth surface, thereby removing plaque.

These diets are high-fiber maintenance diets for average mature animals but would not be appropriate to support growth, gestation/lactation or a very athletic life-style. Each of them is intended to be fed as the main calorie source. Research by Hill's found that the best results were obtained in this manner, but that there was still a measurable (but declining) benefit when the t/d diets were fed as 75%, 50% and even 25% of the total calorie intake. Using t/d simply as a treat will not meet expectations for the product.

IamsÂ[emoji]174[/emoji] has a line of diets under the name Dental DefenseTM and Innovative Veterinary Diets has a Dental FormulaTM. These diets have been coated with HMP to reduce calculus accumulation. Keep in mind that calculus does not cause gingivitis or periodontal disease, bacterial plaque does. Calculus just makes it easier for the plaque to adhere to the tooth surfaces. Reducing calculus accumulation alone will not prevent gingivitis and periodontal disease, but it may make the job easier. The IamsÂ[emoji]174[/emoji] Dental Defense diets have the VOHC Seal of Acceptance for calculus.

Bold, my emphasis

Every single study you cite in your post above (save, perhaps, Boyce 1992) refers to special kibble or specially designed dental food or treats.

"Typical dry dog and cat foods contribute little dental cleansing" (a quote from the Logan 2000), so perhaps it's best not to overstate the case and extrapolate from the studies something they're not saying. The book (Logan et al. 2000), BTW, is produced by Hill's Pet.

 

[mschauer]

(LDG beat me to the punch with this but since I went to the trouble to look and and read the citations type a response it by golly I'm going to post it!)

Originally Posted by Ducman69

There are numerous studies on dental benefits in dry diets, although more heavily focused on dogs and specifically designed dental formulations.

*All* of the studies you listed refer to benefits seen from feeding specially formulated prescription dry foods.

From your first citation (my added bold):

Historically, several studies have demonstrated that animals eating soft foods develop more plaque and gingivitis than animals fed fibrous foods [81,82]. The studies traditionally cited to substantiate those claims are old reports that used small numbers of animals, had varying evaluation methods, and did not report data analysis, making study comparison difficult. It has been considered conventional wisdom that typical dry crunchy commercial foods provide a dental benefit to cats and dogs. Many of the recommendations made about the effect of food texture on oral health are unsubstantiated, and several have turned out to be untrue when exposed to rigorous study. Although consumption of soft foods may promote plaque accumulation, the general belief that dry foods provide significant oral cleansing should be regarded with skepticism. It has been reported that a canned food performed similar to a dry food in the degree of plaque and calculus accumulation in dogs (Table 2) [83]. A large epidemiologic survey reported that in dogs, consumption of dry food alone did not consistently demonstrate improved periodontal health [84]

 

[ducman69]

LDG, mschauer, you just realize that you just effectively went "AHA! GOTCHA!" and then repeated VERBATIM what I prefaced the entire post with!

Originally Posted by Ducman69

There are numerous studies on dental benefits in dry diets, although more heavily focused on dogs and specifically designed dental formulations.

You stated that there are no domestic studies that showed dental benefits for kibble, and I provided you numerous in addition to the largest single oral health study performed to date in the first post of this forum that demonstrates that are numerous studies that do, many separately verified by the Veterinary Oral Health Council.

Can someone also please explain to me how very specific peer reviewed studies are biased against wet food when they are funded at least in part by pet food manufacturers that sell wet food right alongside their dry food in stores? *facepalm*

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

There are numerous studies on dental benefits in dry diets, although more heavily focused on dogs and specifically designed dental formulations.

Mastication in and of itself has also shown benefits for gum health, which is unfortunately absent in commercial wet food since most are of a consistency that is licked up.

See, this is where I have a problem with your "proof". Dogs and cats are different so one cannot (or should not) relate information on one to be the same for the other.

Mastication (I understand this to mean "chewing") does not happen in cats since cats do not chew. The jaws only go up and down and not side to side (now that is a physical fact so I'm not sure how you are going to debate this but it should be interesting), so cats do NOT chew (masticate).

 

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

LDG, mschauer, you just realize that you just effectively went "AHA! GOTCHA!" and then repeated VERBATIM what I prefaced the entire post with!

Actually, from your first post in this thread:

However, there are studies that show dental disease, the most common disease in cats, "was significantly more absent" in cats and dogs that were fed at least some dry food

The natural assumption is that your posts in this thread are meant to provide support for your opening statements.

I take it that you are now conceding that your original statement was indeed incorrect and that it is only the expensive prescription dry foods that might provide dental benefits?

(Re: "AHA! GOTCHA!

" :Can you *please* try to not be so darn obnoxious??? I responded to your post in a straight forward, thoughtful manner. I would appreciate you doing the same with my posts or that you not respond to them at all.)

 

[sweetpea24]

Originally Posted by mrblanche

There's at least one more factor to consider.

There are many people who are living on a very restricted income. For them, anything more expensive than a store brand of food could become a real hardship. I'd rather see some abandoned cat or kitten getting that food than being left outdoors to try to make it on their own or, more likely, die very quickly.

Very true. Thank you for adding that vital point.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by mschauer

I take it that you are now conceding that your original statement was indeed incorrect and that it is only the expensive prescription dry foods that might provide dental benefits?

My original statement was in quotes because it is taken word-for-word from the largest single study on dog and cat oral health performed to date. It was not performed using prescription food. The other studies were provided in response to the claim that no other studies exist, which they clearly do although, as I prefaced, are mostly focused on dogs and dental kibble recipes. Dry dental foods and treats are also not all expensive nor prescription only.

Chewing is not defined as moving the jaw side-to-side Yosemite. That is a false statement, and is evidenced by all the studies provided, dental formulas or not. It was never claimed that cats chew as effectively as say a cow, before we go off on another tangent.

 

[ldg]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

LDG, mschauer, you just realize that you just effectively went "AHA! GOTCHA!" and then repeated VERBATIM what I prefaced the entire post with!

Ducman, your style of discussion/debate may be "AHA! GOTCHA!" but mine is not. I'm not trying to "get" you or your information, I'm trying to get at the truth.

I read your first post in this thread, and while I've already done the research on the wet vs. dry issue based on the information of my nutritionally-trained, holistic DVM, the one thing that I didn't research much was the dental issue. I was left wondering why my non-nutritionally trained vet said that studies don't support that dry food promotes dental health, but that there are some studies that indicate that Hill's t/d dry and Greenies Treats may benefit dental health.

As mschauer pointed out, your very first post does not make any kind of qualification as to the TYPE of dry food used to promote dental health, and you provide a link to the Polish study to support your statement that dry food is better for cats' oral health.

I read the link, and was concerned with the method, the protocols, the lack of controls, so I looked into other studies, and found the information I posted earlier.

Again, as mschauer points out, you do not qualify your statement about dry food and dental health until post #42.

I'm not about "being right" and you "being wrong." I want TCS members and guests to be able to make properly informed decisions.

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

My original statement was in quotes because it is taken word-for-word from the largest single study on dog and cat oral health performed to date. It was not performed using prescription food. The other studies were provided in response to the claim that no other studies exist, which they clearly do although, as I prefaced, are mostly focused on dogs and dental kibble recipes. Dry dental foods and treats are also not all expensive nor prescription only.

Chewing is not defined as moving the jaw side-to-side Yosemite. That is a false statement, and is evidenced by all the studies provided, dental formulas or not. It was never claimed that cats chew as effectively as say a cow, before we go off on another tangent.

And yet again, you take information and twist it to mean something else. I said "Mastication = chewing", which I believe is correct and not a false statement. I said, "cats' jaws do not move side to side". Cats in fact, do NOT chew. They break dry kibble with the tip of the tooth and swallow. They do NOT chew their food regardless of whether their jaws actually did go side-to side or not, which of course, we know they do not.

The only tangents we seem to go on are the directions you try to take almost every post you make - here and in other forums. I find it interesting to say the least. It's true that we all have our own opinions, but most of us are willing to be respectful to others.

It's also important to ensure we are linking to legitimate information from reliable sources and not just searching the internet looking for data to use in an argument, especially since most of us here are not interested in arguing so much as we are in learning and helping others to understand reliable information.

 

[cat person]

Originally Posted by mrblanche

There's at least one more factor to consider.

There are many people who are living on a very restricted income. For them, anything more expensive than a store brand of food could become a real hardship. I'd rather see some abandoned cat or kitten getting that food than being left outdoors to try to make it on their own or, more likely, die very quickly.

I agree with you a hundred percent

! I wish more people would think that way.

Originally Posted by Jinxywinx

I find the two perspectives very interesting.
I admit I am clueless about this and didn't even realize that a debate existed. In our house, wet food is a treat, and dry food is the norm. Our vet is very adamant about us feeding our cats dry food and not wet, though he has never explained why that was.
I am not sure which option is best for any of my cats, but I appreciate having the opportunity to see the different sides of this subject so that I may research further on my own and walk into my next vet appointment as an informed individual!

I would like to know why your veterinarian thinks dry food is better. I agree with the veterinarian for what that is worth

.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by LDG

I'm not about "being right" and you "being wrong." I want TCS members and guests to be able to make properly informed decisions.

I hope I didn't give the impression that is why I started this thread, as the intention was just that, to help TCS members and guests make properly informed decisions since I had seen many false myths perpetuated about dry food. I certainly don't believe there is ONE right answer, and I am sure you have seen me equally defend wet food against false myths that it is fattening and causes loose stools for example.

Originally Posted by Yosemite

I said "Mastication = chewing", which I believe is correct and not a false statement. I said, "cats' jaws do not move side to side". Cats in fact, do NOT chew.

Mastication is the technical name for chewing, yes. Cats jaws do not move side to side is also correct, yes. Chewing is not defined as moving a jaw side to side, so no you are wrong in your statement that cats don't chew. Dogs don't chew with a side-to-side motion of their jaws either, but they sure as heck chew to the point that they can obliterate giant bones.

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

I hope I didn't give the impression that is why I started this thread, as the intention was just that, to help TCS members and guests make properly informed decisions since I had seen many false myths perpetuated about dry food. I certainly don't believe there is ONE right answer, and I am sure you have seen me equally defend wet food against false myths that it is fattening and causes loose stools for example.

Mastication is the technical name for chewing, yes. Cats jaws do not move side to side is also correct, yes. Chewing is not defined as moving a jaw side to side, so no you are wrong in your statement that cats don't chew. Dogs don't chew with a side-to-side motion of their jaws either, but they sure as heck chew to the point that they can obliterate giant bones.

Even if chewing is not defined as "moving a jaw side to side", I am not wrong in my statement that cats do not chew. Again, you rearrange data contained in posts to try to prove some obscure point you are trying to make. You remind me greatly of the old Monty Python skit on "Arguments".

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Yosemite

Even if chewing is not defined as "moving a jaw side to side", I am not wrong in my statement that cats do not chew. Again, you rearrange data contained in posts to try to prove some obscure point you are trying to make. You remind me greatly of the old Monty Python skit on "Arguments".

Cats moving their teeth up and down to bite into kibble and dental treats like greenies for example is defined as chewing.

This is very simple, you said cats don't chew because they don't move their mouth side to side. They don't move their mouths side to side, but they are capable of chewing.

 

[momofmany]

Originally Posted by Yosemite

You remind me greatly of the old Monty Python skit on "Arguments".

I loved that skit!!
While readying through this thread, I was greatly reminded of the arguments raised in the IMO forum. I want to point out that what I've read is mainly opinions based on our own personal experiences. No one has chimed in that has been formally trained on feline nutrition.

I feed mine what they like, but only when it is healthy for them. I have successfully converted a stubborn old kibble only cat to eat wet food. I know that most cats don't bother to chew their food, as 1 of mine is completely toothless and another is mostly toothless, therefore I will conclude that the majority of dry food does nothing for their oral health. I know that every dog of mine that actively chewed sticks (nature's toothpicks) had the best oral health of any animal that I've owned. I do know that my cats all started living longer once I incorporated wet food into their daily diets. But these are only my personal observations, and I would not press these onto anyone else.

 

[auntie crazy]

If anyone would like to do their own reading on this subject, here are four sites all either written by or in conjunction with trained, certified feline nutrition experts and/or veterinarians. Just copy and paste these addresses into your url:

catinfo.org

feline-nutrition.org

yourdiabeticcat.com

littlebigcat.com

Best regards.

AC

 

[ldg]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

I hope I didn't give the impression that is why I started this thread, as the intention was just that, to help TCS members and guests make properly informed decisions since I had seen many false myths perpetuated about dry food. I certainly don't believe there is ONE right answer, and I am sure you have seen me equally defend wet food against false myths that it is fattening and causes loose stools for example.

Ultimately, dry or wet, the fact of the matter is that MOST cat food, dry or wet, crap, premium, or ultra premium, has lots of ingredients cats don't need in their diet and wouldn't naturally eat. Cats can't even turn the beta carotene in carrots into Vitamin A. Cats don't have the necessary enzymes to process 72% of the fat in flax seed (which is 42% fat).

So IMO (I realize, wrong forum here LOL), the debate shouldn't be about wet vs. dry at all, but about what the best ingredients in cat food are.

What I'm wondering is why there isn't a canned cat food with mice as the main ingredient. Obviously, this is because it isn't appealing to people... but at this point, we're all becoming so much more educated about our cats' food... at least there's rabbit on the market.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by LDG

So IMO (I realize, wrong forum here LOL), the debate shouldn't be about wet vs. dry at all, but about what the best ingredients in cat food are.

Well said, couldn't agree more. Its the ingredients mainly that make the food "junk" or not, and ingredients can vary wildly in wet and dry as you say.

In fact, I believe that is what much of the well-intentioned prejudice stems from. In years past, less consumer awareness and limitations in food processing to form a cohesive kibble, along with many cats being free-fed unlimited amounts of food which not all can self-regulate well meant there were many cats eating a whole lot of poor quality high carb foods. Before AAFCO food profiles and nutrition labels listing protein/fat/etc there were some food manufacturers in fact adding inorganic filler to lend weight to food. No one had ever even heard of Blue's "cold-form" dry processing technique for example, and grain-free certainly wasn't a common buzz word until recently.

Unfortunately, once people have so firmly entrenched themselves against these high-carb poor quality ingredient kibbles, its hard for crusaders to remain objective as times change, and so we see a lot of these false myths propagated that I hope this discussion helped address.

,