desperate for advice my beloved 8 yr old cat

[Geoffrey]

 
Please please help me[emoji]9995[/emoji]
My cat,8 yr male,neutered,indoor only, he has been healthy his whole life,only been sick 1 time.has all shots.

On Sat morning I noticed his pupils were dilated,big and round but responded to direct light.his behavior was abnormal,he was confused/nervous acting uneasy.jerking head like he saw things that weren't there.he wasn't drinking water,eating very little.finally,he laid on the couch and I watched his eyes go back and he stiffened and his ears were pulled to the sides.his face was twitching.I called the vet they said he is having a seizure take him to ER.
I drove 35 MINS to the hosp.the Dr looked at him for 5 mins and said he seems ok now,it wasn't a seizure if so he would have been convulsing like a grand mal.cats don't have focal seizures she said.she did phys exam and said his bladder is tender its prob infected.I paid $170 and he got a shot of antibiotics.
That night he had more episodes but not until about midnight.I called and they said wait til Monday and take him to his reg vet.

Reply:
It certainly does not sound like epilepsy.  The symptoms are very nonspecific.  Enlarged pupils, responding to light, can be a normal finding, especially if the room is dark.  The diagnosis of 'seizure' was made without examining Tigone and, in any case the vet obviously meant a variety of epilepsy when he called it a seizure.

A review of the pathology suggests mild kidney disease but no specific cause for his symptoms.  He appears to have a chest infection - possibly viral and his symptoms  may relate to this.  Talk to your vet, your first regular vet, not the specialists, as to whether this can be.

All in all, I doubt whether he has any form of epilepsy (but I am not a vet!)  I suggest you wait and see what eventuates when Tigone's chest infection settles.  The Phenobarbitone seems to make him very drowsy.  See what your vet says about reducing the dosage.

With best wishes,

Geoffrey

 

[thekittykeepers]

Sounds like he is like most cats, and does not like medicines. It takes practice, but you can win this battle. Using a towel to wrap him up before giving him oral medication, often works well. The biggest aspect of Medicine is taste. Cats have very strong response to taste and it is important to get the medication as far into the throat as possible. Then you close the mouth and rub the throat to cause reflexive swallowing to occur. If they don't taste it, they don't fight it nearly as much. Second set of hands also helps out a lot.

We struggle even still, with all the experience we have, and my words above sound much easier than it actually is of course. But don't get discouraged, getting the medication into the patient is more important than the struggle to accompanies the act. Please keep us updated with the progress and diagnosis, wish you all the best, the kittykeepers.

 

[dezarae ashlee]

thanks guys for replies. kittykeepers i think that is what i am doing wrong i have not put it in the way back of his throat! that is so obvious and yet i didnt realize thats probably a big part of his reluctance lol. i am going to try it again! thank you

geoffrey the first vet (his reg vet he usually saw) is the one i called first and they said its a seizure. The first ER visit dr said it wasnt a seizure with out seeing the episode. By the tme he went to the 2nd hospital for the 2nd & 3rd ER visits i had videos and those doctors said its focal seizure. Then bc they said admit him to neurology i found another vet-who ran the rest of the blood tests i wanted and he saw the videos and by that time timone was so spacey all the time and the seizures were happening so frequently he had an episode during the visit,and he said complete partial seizures. you are right no one thinks it is epilepsy bc of his age,they said if it was epilepsy that he woukld have started them by age 5..I was researching viral infections too! i was thinking the same thing but all i can find is FIP that really matches his symptoms. thanks for everyones help and responses. im going to ask about getting his vitamin levels checked.

 

[thekittykeepers]

You are welcome, hope it works for you. We have a lot of cats, and do a lot of medication over time. Some cats are easy, others are fighters. My wife is so good at it now, that I rarely need to help her anymore. The vet showed us the trick to get our cats to take medications they don't like, and so far, so good. Doesn't work everytime, but success is much higher than ever before, and because medication gets expensive, it is much better to get it done right the first time.

As for the seizures, we really do feel for you and your baby, they are very distressing. Fortunately for the kittie, I don't think they really have any memory of it, and there doesn't seem to be any pain associated with the seizure, it is far more difficult on you than it is him. I hope you find out the cause and can correct it, thanks for keeping us up to date. Sincerely, the kittykeepers.

 

[Geoffrey]

 
geoffrey the first vet (his reg vet he usually saw) is the one i called first and they said its a seizure. The first ER visit dr said it wasnt a seizure with out seeing the episode. By the tme he went to the 2nd hospital for the 2nd & 3rd ER visits i had videos and those doctors said its focal seizure. Then bc they said admit him to neurology i found another vet-who ran the rest of the blood tests i wanted and he saw the videos and by that time timone was so spacey all the time and the seizures were happening so frequently he had an episode during the visit,and he said complete partial seizures. you are right no one thinks it is epilepsy bc of his age,they said if it was epilepsy that he woukld have started them by age 5..I was researching viral infections too! i was thinking the same thing but all i can find is FIP that really matches his symptoms. thanks for everyones help

and responses. im going to ask about getting his vitamin levels checked.

Thank you for the summary of the vet's opinions on your videos.  That settles some of the points that I was considering. 

You wrote: "I was researching viral infections too! i was thinking the same thing but all i can find is FIP that really matches his symptoms" and "im going to ask about getting his vitamin levels checked".

I must advise you NOT to look up the internet and then try to match up Timone's symptoms and try to make a diagnosis. You are far too close to him.  By the way, virus infections of the brain can cause small, constricted pupils - not dilated ones.

Has Timone settled down now? Or is he still having problems?

With best wishes,

Geoffrey

 

[dezarae ashlee]

he is developing new weird symptoms quickly like when he goes to the basement to use the litter box he "hops" down the stairs vs using all 4 legs and walking down,his front 2 legs move together and so do the back 2 legs if that makes sense.he doesnt seem scared to go down them bc he doesnt do this slowly.he goes back up the stairs regularly.

he is walking with tail down but if you call him or start to pet him it will come up,but then when he walks away its back down on the ground.

he seems fine walking on the floor it doesnt seem like he is struggling to walk or too weak to walk,but since he was a baby he has always walked across me to come sit on me or lay on my chest,this involves walking down my 2 legs or straddling my limbs to get to where he wants and only when he is walking on me it seems it isnt as easy for him,i dont want to say he falls over but maybe loses balance a bit. its tougher to support his weight 

his seizures are now involving his eyes more. one pupil will drift off to one side while the other is looking forward,and they change sizes rapidly.

the seizures are different now in general too he does this chomping like twitch with his jaw. i uploaded one tn of just a few minutes ago..

 last night

   <---tonight,example of eyes changing/movement if you watch blow up the screen so its big 

i think he may be dehydrated?his fur isnt laying down like it used to. its like seperated,the edges are like jagged..hard to explain kind of like sonic.it doesnt feel greasy. i think i already sai this but the condition of his nails is horrible,splitting with fur in one.2 are black,most are pink and breaking. he has always had sharp healthy nails that he enjoyed sharpening.

i called a vet today and emailed a video of what the episodes look like now with his eyes  they said vitamin test is worthless bc its neurological.they said the pupils changing size and drifting along with everything else indicates neuro,i basically begged for examples of what it could be and she suggested  hydrocephalus or brain cancer, but of course that isnt for sure bc they didnt examine him.he needs an mri for sure and spinal tap.

geoffrey i know i am too close to try to diagnose i just thought that maybe i could narrow it down bc i wasnt given possibilities let alone a diagnosis from a dr.yes they have suggested neurological but when i ask which diseases would cause this no one could give an example even after explaining i know u cant say with out mri but what is this typical of or wht does it remind u of.the vet today is the first one i got to give example.

also,do u havr any ideas on how i can check the color of his tears that are draining?his fur is dark so i csnt tell and when i try to wipe it with a q tip i cnt get it off

kittykeepers your wife must be a pro i tried tonight and timone is not having it lol i thought i was going to break his neck he was jerking around he is impossible i need pills this liquid is for the birds! u guys are good lol the vet is going to give me pills.those are so easy 

 

[dezarae ashlee]

the one from tn i edited so its shorter so u can see the twitching and the eyes and the quality is better,this is link 

 

[Geoffrey]

Twitching and roving eye movements in a sleeping cat are not unusual, as are movements of the third eye lid, but I thought that the videos were not really diagnostic. However I don’t like the "hopping" gait and the problems walking and I am afraid that nobody could help you without examining him during an episode.

Again I thought the videos were not diagnostic. A trained opinion is required to diagnose dehydration and what you have described is not it.  (I am not sure why you are looking for the colour of his tears as this would not help at all in diagnosis in in this case.)

I am so sorry that I am so unhelpful, but you really should not try to manage Tibone’s illness yourself. You should  take him to a vet so that the symptoms and signs can be properly evaluated.

With all best wishes,

Geoffrey 

 

[Geoffrey]

Twitching and roving eye movements in a sleeping cat are not unusual, as are movements of the third eye lid, but I thought that the videos were not really diagnostic. However I don’t like the "hopping" gait and the problems walking and I am afraid that nobody could help you without examining him during an episode.

A trained opinion is required to diagnose dehydration and what you have described is not what one finds in it - I wouldn’t try to diagnose it yourself and I am not sure why you are looking for the colour of his tears as this would not help at all in diagnosis in in this case.

I am so sorry that I am so unhelpful, but you really should not try to manage Tibone’s illness yourself. You have to take him to a vet so that the symptoms and signs can be properly evaluated.

With all best wishes,

Geoffrey

 

[dezarae ashlee]

I understand your feelings on dry food, I used to be the same way, until I read a very detailed article by a veterinarian from Australia. I will try an find the page and link it here so others can read it as well. For every food manufacturer out there, there will be tales of horror about how the food killed someone's pet suddenly, and the anti-dry food army will March on down like the russian heading into the east Germany.

The truth regarding dry foods, is somewhere in between. The type of protein that cats need, is exactly the protein used by the manufacturers in their grain food, even though cats are absolute carnivores. This one page changed my entire outlook on cat foods, and I do doubt that manufacturers would purposely make foods that kill cats/dogs, and still exist as the large companies they are today, it just doesn't add up. Knee jerk reactions that want to blame something, someone, after a sudden death, is natural. With our Animals, the number of possible recipients for blame, is limited to basically just one.

I don't know how many stories I have read where the owner says they fed their cat one brand for 9 years, then one morning, they found their cat dead, and it HAD TO BE THE EVIL FOOD.

We have 32 cats at our home, we rescue every kitten we find. Our choices of foods is very limited here in the Philippines, since the bulk of the population sees cats as rats with more character. Their diet consists of bottled water and Special Cat brand dry food. That is one of the only brands available in a consistent manner, changing brands every few months is bad, and can mask more serious illnesses that would often be missed, or considered part of the diet change symptoms. We buy 20 bags at a time, because we have so many mouths to feed.

Obviously, when we have a cat that becomes sick, we change their diet to wet food, usually a recovery diet mixed with another wet food. Cats don't hydrate well when they are sick, and giving them wet food during these times is almost paramount to recovery. But during their normal times, finding a quality dry food that has the right nutrition, is not a mortal sin, and contrary to popular belief, not poison for cats. I am sorry, but being a militant, guilt others for their choices, anti-dry food warrior does no good to anyone, and may prevent people from reaching out for advise out of shame. Please refrain from guiltily others with claims that are not backed up by facts. If friskies was a killer of cats, the US would probably be a cat free country by now.

I dont know how but i just now saw your recent posts. I read up on dry food when someone on here mentioned it wasnt good,and I read about the proteins,lack of water for hydration and all of that!you are so right cats can not keep up with hydration when they dont feel good,i never knew that because ive never had a sick cat before. Timone is dehydrated right nw too,how do you help your cats when they get dehydrated?I switched his food to wellness brand wet days ago and i also give filtered water!im so happy u do the same bc my husband was joking that he eats and drinks better than we do and that im spoiling him bc he has special water now! why is changing brands bad?does it give an upset tummy?im just curious bc my mom gets her cat different bags depending on price.

im so sorry to hear about the kitties paw.so the seizure the cat endured was due to infection? like the bacteria was neurotoxic? im so glad she is ok! timone had mre than 1 shot of antibiotics. he had convenia 48 mg on 5/21,then he had another bacterial antibiotic shot mixed with b12 (the antibiotic started with a D) the same day he got the pheno shot. He also had a shot of anti-inflammatorys and now he is on doxy and clin (i got pills)

 

[dezarae ashlee]

I don't think that neurologist knows what he's talking about because what you are describing DOES sound like seizures to me.  When I had Nat in the ICU the last time, they told me he only had one small seizure which consisted of his whiskers twitching.  Good heavens I sure hope the cardiologist can help you with Timone tomorrow. 



Nat has been on Pheno altogether nearly 4 years off and on.  At first they gave him only Valium rectally, then switched over to Pheno transdermal cream.  I guess it helped but honestly the seizures had gone away on their own that first time.  I don't recall when the vet took him off the cream, but then last January he started on oral pheno pills which I crushed and gave with water in a syringe.  Then in March last year they doubled the dose and make it a liquid so I wouldn't have to crush it.  They felt I wasn't giving him a full dose when I was crushing it.  



I'm not sure if I understand Timone's situation correctly, but I believe it's a mistake to tell the vet to not give him the full dose of pheno.  That's why Timone is continuing to have seizures, because he didn't get the necessary loading dose.  I know it's hard to see your kitty sedated, but better that than to continue to have seizures!  



Seizures are not benign events.  Even if he goes unconscious and doesn't remember them, they are hard on the body, especially the brain and his heart.  During the big seizures, the demand for oxygen is too great for his weakened heart to supply so it's imperative that the seizures get under control, even if that means being groggy for a while.  It won't last forever.  



Nat gradually got used to being on this drug, but at first he laid around all the time.  He's more energetic now than at first, but he's not ever going to be exactly the same kitty as before.    He's still a big ole sweetie, and I still love him even if he is slower and less energetic than before he got sick.  



There may be another drug they can give him, potassium bromide I think, but I'm not sure of those side effects because Nat has only been on the pheno.



I would have fired that vet too for leaving him ALONE when Timone was most likely to have seizures!!  How RIDICULOUS!!!  Why not just give him back to you to observe?  That's not right.   God that makes me angry he did that to you and your kitty!  Anyway, I hope things go well tomorrow.  Have a safe trip.  

Im so glad to hear about Nats recovery and how well hes done in 4 years. It gives me hope thank you for sharing it with me! when nat was in ICU and they said the small seizure that consisted of whiskers twitching,did they say what kind of seizure it was?

also,did the vet indicate why they didnt feel he was getting the full dose if pills were crushed?Timones pheno is liquid but 1 of the antibiotics are a pill that i break-not crush but im just curious.
Im glad nat eventually adjusted,my heart breaks for you that he isnt the same although i know you love him the same im sure it is hurtful

 

[stewball]

I dont know how but i just now saw your recent posts. I read up on dry food when someone on here mentioned it wasnt good,and I read about the proteins,lack of water for hydration and all of that!you are so right cats can not keep up with hydration when they dont feel good,i never knew that because ive never had a sick cat before. Timone is dehydrated right nw too,how do you help your cats when they get dehydrated?I switched his food to wellness brand wet days ago and i also give filtered water!im so happy u do the same bc my husband was joking that he eats and drinks better than we do and that im spoiling him bc he has special water now! why is changing brands bad?does it give an upset tummy?im just curious bc my mom gets her cat different bags depending on price.

im so sorry to hear about the kitties paw.so the seizure the cat endured was due to infection? like the bacteria was neurotoxic? im so glad she is ok! timone had mre than 1 shot of antibiotics. he had convenia 48 mg on 5/21,then he had another bacterial antibiotic shot mixed with b12 (the antibiotic started with a D) the same day he got the pheno shot. He also had a shot of anti-inflammatorys and now he is on doxy and clin (i got pills)

You need to ask the vets to hydrate him and to teach you how to do it.

 

[dezarae ashlee]

Yes he recommended syringe of water force fed. Iv isn't recomended bc Timone would have to be given gas or anesthetic he does not do well with blood wit or any pricking like iv and they dont want to do anesthetic bc he is afraid recovery time will be altered bx of seizures and he already has to have anesthetic for MRI and spinal tap

 

[foxxycat]

fluids are given under the skin-no IV needed. you can do this at home. Google sub fluids cats on youtube. Most kitties as long as they are in a safe enclosed box type area will sit and allow the fluids. it doesn't hurt. most cats get them every 48 hours or so if its prescribed by the vet. Becareful of heart issues-you can't overload the body with fluids if the cat has heart issues. I will have to reread your thread as I thought I saw you took him to a cardiologist or I am confusing you with another-so many cats on here-trying  to keep them straight.

I hope you find some answers to the issues.

 

[krazycatlady13]

I highly agree with foxxycat about doing IV fluids at home.

I apologize, I haven't been able to keep up with everything about your poor Timone but am now seeing something that "he can't be put under to give IV fluids to him".

And as foxxycat said; you can give them in the comfort of your own home, subcutaneously (just under his skin).

I had a cat, Mr. bill who needed this as dialysis die to kidney disease.  Mr. Bill allowed me to do this.

I highly suggest (I assume you've finally found a good vet to work with?, I sure hope so.). Anyway, IF Timone is not hydrated enough and your vet has diagnosed his dehydration; have the vet teach you how to do IV fluids at home.  It really is very simple.

I did this:  Hang the IV bag from the handle on a overhead kitchen cabinet (or anything you can hang it on that's up above you and Timone).

Then I would sit with Timone in my lap make hime comfortable and calm.

Have everything ready by you and once calm; insert the needle the way the vet teaches you(I'm sorry, Mr. Bill was over 15 years ago), but then you simply watch the bag until it has gone down the PROPER amount that the vet tells you he should be getting.

Timone will have a big "fluid bubble" under his skin when done which his body will then absorb, rehydrating him.

My kitty had kidney disease therefore I had to do this like 3x a day.

If Timone is simply not getting enough fluids, you may only have to do this once a day, but the veterinarian has to tell you that.

(after seeing foxxycat's post; I assumed you were told he was dehydrated and I just wAnT TO hElp.)

Sandi

 

[ginny]

Im so glad to hear about Nats recovery and how well hes done in 4 years. It gives me hope thank you for sharing it with me! when nat was in ICU and they said the small seizure that consisted of whiskers twitching,did they say what kind of seizure it was?

also,did the vet indicate why they didnt feel he was getting the full dose if pills were crushed?Timones pheno is liquid but 1 of the antibiotics are a pill that i break-not crush but im just curious.
Im glad nat eventually adjusted,my heart breaks for you that he isnt the same although i know you love him the same im sure it is hurtful [/quote]


They said it was a simple partial seizure and administered IV Valium to stop it. So we went home with pheno pills but I had to crush them and mix it with water. The dose was 8 mg twice a day. We had to go back in two months time because the seizures started back (the big kind - grand mal.). Then they increased him to 16 mg liquid pheno. Since then his level has been therapeutic and I now have him on 12 mg (still twice daily.)

 

[foxxycat]

@Dezarae Ashlee  how is your baby doing?

 

[ginny]

Oh, the vet thought I was not giving quite 8 mg each time because I had to crush it, which leaves a little dust behind in the crusher. So they switched to liquid (and doubled the dose) which has to be shaken well each time to give the proper dose. They gave pills only because they thought that would be easier for him than liquid. It wasn't. Some times I miss and get it on his neck but the liquid is much easier for me. He's always hated the taste of it, even with flavoring. I've tasted it myself. It horrible. Poor baby!

How is Timone doing today?

 

[dezarae ashlee]

Hi everyone sorry for delay in response! Ive been sick too,ironically!
@krazykatlady13 cardiologist ruled out heart disease with echo & ekg, soft murmur like typically seen in cats was found,he was cleared for anesthetic for mri/csf.
i did call the vet and asked why he didnt mention the possibility of doing fluids at home,the receptionist said that because i didnt want to do blood work and there are some suggestions of kidney problems on his other blood work like his electrolytes being on the low side. blood work would need to be evaluated again prior to doing anything at home with out supervision and bc he didnt think timone would do well with it based on the anxiety he had in the office(first time there). he said timones about 8% dehydrated and its not life threatening until double that.Im supposed to force feed water like he said and timone will recover because theres no indication that the dehydration is caused by fluid loss but instead decreased intake,so with out more testing this is the best option cure him.... I did refuse any testing in the office.but he didnt explain to me why it was needed either. Honestly I probably didnt give him a chance to though because Ive paid for so many tests that have gotten us no where except referred to neurology that before we got to the vets office i already had it in my head that i wasnt paying for any extras.




=

 

[dezarae ashlee]

update: timone was taken to OSU again,this tikme for a consultation with one of the neurologists there,Dr Cook. He had a seizure there,the kind where he has twitching simultaneously in his whiskers,mouth,brows,ears and sometimes feet. She diagnosed him with complex focal seizures.She raised the pheno to twice a day and made them capsules instead of liquid because the concentration was raised and its hard to get him to take a lot of liquid medicine.she also tested his electrolytes with something called nova or something to check dehydration.potassium & calcium were just below accepted range. She said she suspects an infectious disease because it started abruptly vs cancer.But i already had all those tests to check for antibodies done. she wants to do a CSF & MRI.she explained if it is an infectious disease that is viral or fungal there would be inflamm of his brain and it would be easy to determine.I opened a fundraiser for him & i am hoping for the best.thanks for everyones support!