CRF/CKD Cat.... food?

[pawprints1986]

 
Jumbo is my former street cat and he used to be a gobbler of food, dry or wet, it didn't matter. Food is originally how I got him to trust me when he showed up 4 (almost 5) years ago. Before when I'd feed him wet food, I'd put half a 5.5 oz can in his bowl and he'd eat it quickly. Now if I do that, he'll take a few licks then stop and go sit in his bed or meow at me to pet on him. I guess when his renal disease progressed in the last year or so he became a grazer. So now I give him a quarter of the can watered down and that seems to work better for him. I try to only add a spoonful or 2 of any regular food. I think he has become a tuna addict... that is probably not a good thing. He is mostly kept separate from the other 2 because they fight, while that's a problem on it's own, at least it's easier to monitor his food/water intake. I too currently have 2 cans and a food pouch in the fridge.

I also notice from the food charts that Science Diet has a lot of low phosphorous regular foods. I just wished he liked Science Diet. I had moved all 3 cats to SD senior dry kibble about a year ago. That's about when he stopped eating. A cup of dry would sit in his bowl for several days with him barely touching it. The other 2 didn't mind it at all, they still eat it as their main dry food. He also didn't like the SD Rx wet food from the vet, so I doubt he would like their regular wet food. I think he likes the Iams renal wet more than the Hi-Tor Neo, but I could only get Iams in 12 can case and Hi-Tor comes in a 24 can case. 

When he was first diagnosed last month and wouldn't eat the prescription food, I called the vet's office to ask what to do and the receptionist said, "Well if he's hungry enough he'll eat it. He won't starve to death." That angered me, and still does. That's a common train of thought though. But it's just ignorant and inconsiderate. My cat was already starving himself because he didn't like his regular food (before I put him back on his old food) plus the disease causes appetite loss. Whatever cat food you can get your cat to eat and keep down is the best thing for the cat. Jumbo throws up a lot. He kinda of always did even before the diagnosis. There have been several treats and vitamin chews that I can give my other 2, but Jumbo will throw them up a few minutes later. 

Sounds like our cats have a similar past. My diagnosed kitty was a street cat as well, but in our case more like 10 years ago. Back then she was STARVING and would gobble anything in sight. These days shes a grazer, but since long before diagnosis. She also sleeps more soundly now. for the longest time, even if someone walked past her while she was asleep, she would perk right up and become alert. we could tell it was because she was used to having to be defensive on the street. Wish we could have told her we wouldnt hurt her... but luckily in time that faded. 

I thought of science diet since the vet food she REALLY liked was science diet (before any numbers, their emergency wet food, i think its called critical care?). that one was higher phosphorous a bit (1% dry), but she loved it. next time im in i might ask if i can give her one on occasion... but then, id hate to turn her off of what shes currently eating. i have a can of chicken baby food too... debating between if i should use it, will she expect *all* food to be that good. lol. the baby food is alot more basic, ingredient wise. higher protien though :/

i hate the idea of they wont starve themselves... because, mine basically did. not to death, but she went a good 24 hours not eating or drinking at all. thought she was having 1 off day, but when she still had no interest in even treats the next day, we knew it was time to call. who knows how long before then she had been eating less but still acting okay, as she shared bowls with my other cat. she was very dehyrated before her IV vet stay over (3 days, missed her like crazy!!). so, i like to think that although maybe not to death, they do starve themselves/go off their food. especially if theyre not crazy about that food to begin with. in a way i get that thought, but in another way, i totally dont. even human kids would rather go hungry than eat their broccoli in most cases. does that mean you shouldnt offer anything else? I dont think so... dont offer cake instead, but something else healthy. I think of the same way for animals. thats why i like to rotate flavours even if the basic diet is similar (like, sticking with science diet for example). just to keep them interested in their food

i guess im lucky that she seems to like the science diet varieties... along with her royal canin renal diet. 

 

[momofmaxwell]

Hi i just wanted to put my two cents worth in.Cat's will put their feet Down & not eat.A little less calories per day from sickness overtime will bring on Hepatic lipidosis.Food is life now.Truly i have seen my babies on death's door only to see the light come back into their eyes.Calories are key.Lots of them.if nausea is not addressed it will get worse til kitty says no more to any flavor.Mirt on it's own can cause a learned aversion to food.The brain is saying I'm hungry so they eat although they feel like hell.Overtime what happens is what they used to think was their favorite is no longer.They will want no part of it.Gerber's stage 2 chicken babyfood holds over 100 calories per little jar.It is used highly in cat's that just are not consuming enough calories on their own.It is often added into the meat they are eating now.If kitty likes it.Which you can just take a dab & try your baby.But without nausea being treated either with cerenia or Ondanestron that will fade over time as well.Dehydration is huge for cats that are not consuming what their bodies need.An average 10 lb kitty eats approx 180-200 calories per day.A sick kitty needs even more.Odanestron is a human anti nause a med used for humans having chemo therapy.It is highly used in veterinary care.Like i said kitties can take both.Cerenia which actually helps more with vomiting,but can be combined with Ond in a life threatening illness.The less calories ingested the more dehydration ,the more sick kitty feels until yes they say NO.In the wild they are not medicated when something comes up like renal failure they go & crawl into a hole in log to pass.This is their nature.Sometimes & I have been there we have to introduce the will that they have lost.When diagnosed with CKD we all want them to eat a ckd food.But alot of them won't.It is a fact.But eating period is life.And introducing phos binders when the numbers get to needing that intro is a must for them to survive.Please read & join a group honey...

http://www.felinecrf.org/persuading_cat_to_eat.htm     Hugs Cindy I once had 18 flavors of food here to try to entice my Boy to eat.

 

[pawprints1986]

Im already on tanyas group. but the general layout of it and the fact that the posts take hours to show kind of turns me off from wanting to post there.

But, i thought that was the whole point of the subQ fluids? to reduce nausea/improve appetite, at times along with the mirtazapam? 

she doenst seem nauseous, hasnt vomited... she may well be eating as much as shes supposed to be. but since they used to share bowls, i have no way of knowing how much she alone ate before... so i have nothing to compare with to now... but she is eating, the ckd diet, at least for now. 

 

[momofmaxwell]

Hi I am sorry you are having issues on Tanya's.Please join the yahoo group.I will give you the link again.Make your first posting large new member need help urgent Ok? Don't give up.They are a wealth.Truly.They are high volume as CKD is so profound in the feline world.Be persistent & you will get help.If you don't have an account with yahoo just google making an account with yahoo.(free) & follow the prompts.The sooner you get the right help,the sooner your baby is going to feel better.Hugs C Here is their link again.BiG & BOLD

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Feline-CRF-Support/info 

 

[momofmaxwell]

BTW nauseous kitties hardly if ever  vomit.Why it is hard to figure out.They will help you. Always treat with anti nausea meds first & then appetite stimulant only if needed.But they will got through bloodwork like the back of their hand & urine testing & any other tests & work with you as per what they see as a concern & how to proceed to give your kitty the best quality of life you can.They are truly wonderful compassionate people who have all been in your shoes.Also little tricks they have learned along the way of 30 or more yrs.Hugs to you & the babe.C.

 

[catminionjess]

Do you have to specifically ask your vet for anti-nausea meds or phosphate binders? Mine didn't offer these, only suggested giving Jumbo 2.5 mg Pepcid twice a day. I give him that and he still throws up regularly. Sometimes it's food and sometimes it's just liquid, like dry heaving. They only suggest fluids right after his dental scaling/extraction (he was diagnosed beforehand) if he wouldn't eat after the procedure. He starting eating a little after a couple days. They didn't suggest an appetite stimulant either. Am I not asking my vet the right questions? Or are they just not telling me everything I need to know to help him eat? They gave me a pamphlet with the same basic info I'd already googled explaining what CRF is and was told to put him on kidney diet food. 

 

[pawprints1986]

Well my vet said that since shes eating well, and her numbers (at least for phosphorous as far as it matters for the binders) look good, he doesnt see a need as of now to regularly use anti nausea meds, or the phos binders just yet. 

the appetite stimulant in her case was because she is already so small to start with, so when she lost weight with being sick (before we knew) she became bonier/malnourished in size. in our case it was an effort to get her to put some weight back on. she only gets 1/8 of a pill though, and only as needed (the mertazapam). they did give her some at the emergency vet initially, just to get her eating again since she hadnt in the 24 hours, and since the iv fluids would still take some time to stimulate it on their own. 

were only a few weeks into it, but she hasnt fully turned away on food... shes had preferences (like, not liking the old royal canin reduced protein type), but she hasnt gone totally off of food yet since being home. 

but we were initially diagnosed stage 3 though... it might be different if you catch it at stage 1? 

 

[lisamarie12]

 
Do you have to specifically ask your vet for anti-nausea meds or phosphate binders? Mine didn't offer these, only suggested giving Jumbo 2.5 mg Pepcid twice a day. I give him that and he still throws up regularly. Sometimes it's food and sometimes it's just liquid, like dry heaving. They only suggest fluids right after his dental scaling/extraction (he was diagnosed beforehand) if he wouldn't eat after the procedure. He starting eating a little after a couple days. They didn't suggest an appetite stimulant either. Am I not asking my vet the right questions? Or are they just not telling me everything I need to know to help him eat? They gave me a pamphlet with the same basic info I'd already googled explaining what CRF is and was told to put him on kidney diet food. 

Yes, you would need to ask your vet for both the anti-nausea and phosphorus binder.

When we were dealing with CRF for two cats back in mid '00's, our vet (two vets actually), never suggested a phosphorus binder. I found out about it via Tanya's CRF site. One of the vet's, after I asked about it said,  "Oh, a phosphorus binder - sure, that's a great idea!" And then he gave me a Rx and I ended up ordering it online.

I see that Epakitin is also available online.

Sorry you are going through this with Jumbo, I empathize.

 

[momofmaxwell]

Hi CatMinion.I'll be blunt.I lost three babies to ckd while under the care of my veterinarian of 15 yrs.I had regular bloodwork & urinalysis & knew nothing about obtaining copies for my own from their test results.I thought this vet was God.He wasn't and before I could intervene they were dead.only because i put in a complaint to the Canadian Veterinary Association about his care did I get told i was privy to all test results,everything from my last deceased animals going back 6 yrs.There were 6 animals ass My dog's went there too.I fought tooth  & nail to get those reports not really knowing what i was going to find.Maxwell at that time was diagnosed CKD by another vet as i could not deal with this guy anymore.My youngest only being 5yrs old dead.That is when i joined the CKD group at yahoo.Then i finally received all 6 animal files.Being on the ckd groups they teach you everything there is to know about CKD.Reading bloodwork etc.Many things you will never her from your vet.i am being honest.Here & crying at the same time.When going over the files of my 3 ckd kitties I had yrs of bloodwork & urinalysis reports.i did never cheap out when it came to having tests done.only to my surprise reading all their blood numbers they were all in a from of CKD, three to four yrs prior to them dying.never a mention of diet change.never a mention of hydration.in fact never a mention of ckd.They all died.If i had only found that group which has been around since 2000 i could have had them a lot longer in my life.instead they are dead.I'm sorry but i recommend these groups only because of my past How they changed my life.how they helped my babies live a long & healthy life.they opened by eyes.So when you talk about subq & mirt i feel for you.As there is so much to learn about symptoms,treatments of ckd which are all doable with HELP.If you do not bite the bullet & join a good group your baby will perish.i do not believe in good vets anymore.Although some members have super proactive ones.They are very lucky.new technology is going on as we speak about CKD.it is a huge disease in cats.i believe they do not need to suffer when there are meds & believe the high dollars we spend we should be dealing with someone that knows everything.Most of us aren't.there is not pamphlet to be honest on CKD.What a pile of bunk.IMO.Do be like me & join & learn.Cats vomit for all kinds of reasons.Bloodwork is key & understanding it.Food,water,meds all being the lifeline to keeping them into your lives & happy.this is the group i belong to.i have belonged there over 10 yrs.They are all volunteers who have been in our same shoes over & over.they love cats & devote precious time in their day to help us help them.This is manageable.But only with help.All these groups being a wealth in my life.i just wish I'd found them sooner.I belong to many now.Not generalized groups but groups that deal with specific ailments in cats.Although we talk about everything.i cannot stress how important it is.When you join you find out all that is going wrong and will be able to form a list to take to your vet.if he/she says no.you move on.At the end I only had an Internist.She knew I belonged to many groups and that yes i expected perfection from her.My last Boy was my life.She didn't fail me.her knowledge was superior to anyone I had ever met.She loved him .So at the end of the day you decide.i have no reason to say these things.i have nothing to gain.This only twists the knife already in me from not being the advocate.not noticing symptomology & not speaking up.In fact i was speaking up to the WRONG person.I had a dollar sign on my forehead.All about money.Something i have to live with for the rest of my life.Please don't be me.When your kitty is sick pls get help.These members will help you.That is all they do.My Boy was diagnosed ckd at 10 yr old.he live to 15 yrs 11 months.With proper treatment plan etc.His renal number never changed even when he got cancer.By the time kitty disease is confirmed almost 75% of their kidney function is gone.i only go by Iris staging.You can google it.But to understand what you are reading you need someone that will work with you that you are not a meal ticket & they still loves cats.the reason they became a vet many yrs ago.they have forgotten that are are blind to being buried in dollar bills.it is very sad.For those of you that have excellent vets I am very happy for you.Pray they don't move to another country or retire.For now is the time to make our own choices to learn if we want to have them a long time in our lives & not to feel like hell.Tick tock, tick Tock.Here is where I belong& tanya's site also a wealth.https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Feline-CRF-Support/info   & Tanya's at www.felinecrf.org Cindyxx Hugs to the babes all over the world dealing with this.there is help. Sorry about all  my typing but the keyboard is now a blur.

 

[pawprints1986]

^ sounds like you had quite the lousy vet! My very mentioned phos binders on his own, and if she hasn't been eating or has been vomiting, he would have mentioned the nausea meds too.

They may not all know everything about the foods, but at least mine definitely does know what he's doing medically.

Between the emerg vet and our regular, she's been looked after very well.

They will even call to check how they're doing shortly after they've been in, just to see how they seem to be feeling. I don't know what I'll do after they retire, but for now anyway, we're set! They very much explain everything too... Even if I didn't quite understand it fully the first time, they'll go over it again with me.

 

[jenny82]

I chose a high protein, low-ish phosphorus wet food from Tanya's site for Chessy's CKD - Soulistic Good Karma Chicken Dinner.  He really likes it and eats a good amount, and it's very low in phosphorus for a commercial food.  I tried other foods that were supposed to be good, and he wasn't eating as much.  I think keeping them eating is the most important thing.  Good luck!

 

[catminionjess]

 

 
Do you have to specifically ask your vet for anti-nausea meds or phosphate binders? Mine didn't offer these, only suggested giving Jumbo 2.5 mg Pepcid twice a day. I give him that and he still throws up regularly. Sometimes it's food and sometimes it's just liquid, like dry heaving. They only suggest fluids right after his dental scaling/extraction (he was diagnosed beforehand) if he wouldn't eat after the procedure. He starting eating a little after a couple days. They didn't suggest an appetite stimulant either. Am I not asking my vet the right questions? Or are they just not telling me everything I need to know to help him eat? They gave me a pamphlet with the same basic info I'd already googled explaining what CRF is and was told to put him on kidney diet food. 

Yes, you would need to ask your vet for both the anti-nausea and phosphorus binder.

When we were dealing with CRF for two cats back in mid '00's, our vet (two vets actually), never suggested a phosphorus binder. I found out about it via Tanya's CRF site. One of the vet's, after I asked about it said,  "Oh, a phosphorus binder - sure, that's a great idea!" And then he gave me a Rx and I ended up ordering it online.

I see that Epakitin is also available online.

Sorry you are going through this with Jumbo, I empathize.

Thank you. The more info I read online and the stories of other members here, the more I think my vet's office just doesn't want to deal with cats anymore. Which is a shame because I've taken my cats there for 10 years and would've recommended them to anyone in my area. It's hard to know what to ask for when they are basically just hurrying you out the door after making you wait to be seen. "Sorry your cat has kidney disease and will not live very long. Here's a pamphlet and some prescription food. See you next year." That's been my takeaway from this experience.

I've seen Epakitin on 1-800-petmeds.com but wasn't 100% what it was for or if my kidney boy needed it, well because my vet's office hasn't been much help at all. We'll see how I feel after my girl's wellness exam goes in a couple months. I may be looking for another vet for all 3 cats.

 

[catminionjess]

 
I chose a high protein, low-ish phosphorus wet food from Tanya's site for Chessy's CKD - Soulistic Good Karma Chicken Dinner.  He really likes it and eats a good amount, and it's very low in phosphorus for a commercial food.  I tried other foods that were supposed to be good, and he wasn't eating as much.  I think keeping them eating is the most important thing.  Good luck!

Jumbo kinda likes that one too. I got some in the pouches to mix into his prescription kidney diet food to encourage him to eat it. He got really excited about the Autumn Bounty, which I gave him first. It helps, but it's still a struggle to get him to eat the whole serving, even when that serving is only 1/4 of a can. He seems to like fish better than chicken and dry prescription food to wet. My other 2 don't like Soulistic because it's not pate. How dare I serve them food that isn't pate! Chewing? Ugh. The only non-pate they've seemed to not mind is Best Feline Friend tuna and tuna varieties. It's hard when you're trying to find foods for multiple cats with different dietary restrictions and taste preferences. 

 

[momofmaxwell]

Hi Pawprints.

That's saying the least.Only when I received files did I know.Otherwise this guy was God to me.I followed every thing he ever told me.Phos binders are only introduced when phosphorus levels start climbing.We all want them to eat a renal food.but to me any food is life.i just stayed from fish.I'm glad you have someone to trust.All your questions regarding fluids,what they do,mirt,phos binders should all be well addressed with your excellent vet.So that when you walk out the door,your questions are answered.Vets do know about renal foods & veterinary foods.They just are not nutritionist's.What are the fluids supposed to stimulate?Appetite? Keep a file on your kitty and a journal daily like I did for Maxwell & you will find it to be so helpful.It's too bad Tanya's takes o long to read your post.Helen's bible is used daily in the CKD feline world.I know many who parked their butt at their monitor answering questions from their wealth on Ckd for Helen but have since moved.Keep up the good work.!Be the advocate.Your baby only has you!

Hugs C.BTW I only go by Iris staging.

 

[momofmaxwell]

Hi Catminion.

You sound like me 20 yrs ago or more.Don't be like i was.If you have a bad feeling move on.It is very sad that we have to go to the web to learn of our cat's illness after paying what we pay.but is reality.Once diagnosed it prgresses.it only stays maintained.So if you are not happy pls find someone that is in it for the reason they first became a vet.They are out there.Meanwhile the numbers can change in your babes & I'm sure you  like me want them to be in your life for a very long time.But it is reality.And not everything you read on the web is correct.But you won't know.Thus the reason for one on one conversations with people that have had over 10ckd kitties in their lives.Sharing & helping educate you.C.

 

[lisamarie12]

I just emailed Lotus about getting the phosphorus content for their Lotus Just Juicy cat canned food and they emailed me a chart for all their products; they responded within an hour actually - send  an email to Lotus if anyone is interested in their entire list of foods and DMA info.

Not sure that I can cut and paste the entire chart which includes sodium, potassium, omega's, etc. but here are the more significant values as they pertain to CKD kitties:

Juicy pork:       phosphorus: 1.08%; protein: 65.20%; carbs: 14.9%

Juicy turkey:    phosphorus: .94%;   protein: 67.45%; carbs: 13.18%

Juicy chicken:  phosphorus: .93%;  protein: 67.84;     carbs:  13.80%

Both my cats really like the pork stew; no carrageenan and gum free other than the agar agar (we'll see how it goes with that).

My barely five year old kitty has borderline CKD, among other health problems so I'm on the lookout for quality protein / phos foods.

By the way, as much as I do appreciate Dr. Pierson's food charts on catinfo, it is important to contact the manufacturers to get the most updated phos values given that many of the foods on her list haven't been updated since 2012, other than a few in 2014 (which she has  also stated).

For e.g., for Nature's Variety duck on that chart, the phos is listed as "1.01%". When I contacted NV re: the phos range for both the duck (which is duck / turkey blend) as well as NV's LID duck, on a DMA, the info I received was: "Original duck: 1.82%; LID duck a whopping 2.88%.

So please do make sure if you are referring to that list, don't take it at face value, contact the manufacturer. I have done this for a few already and all have responded with charts.

I am guessing Tanya's CRF food list, given that it's from 2014 might have more accurate numbers, however, I still think it's best to contact the manufacturer. 

 

[momofmaxwell]

Hi Lisa

Thank you for your input as it is appreciated.I must say I have also dealt with mostly foreign countries re:Food and have been told personally by the food manufacturer that, that info is Privy to the company only. Unless your vets tell you to go with that food.Food companies that will not provide the "guaranteed analysis" of a food I personally would never feed to one of my kitties.

Tanya's site BTW in other aspects needs updating also.Almost everything does.As per Tanya's you can email Helen the owner direct.Super Lady and she will talk to you.And is open to all knowledge of changes being made without her knowing.

She is one busy Gal.But superb.Super Bible. IMO.

Hugs to you & Molly.C.

 

[pawprints1986]

I have an update about my kitty. the last couple subQ sessions, went well, but afterwards was not so good. 

the time before last, she flinched and i think i may have scratched a muscle/bone with the needle a tiny bit. but, when i continued the fluids, she didnt cry or anything so i thought all was well. about 2-3 hours later, i went to pick her up, and she CRIED out, and squirmed. so i left her alone, called emerg vet to get theri opinion. they said it doesnt sound like an emergency, to keep an eye on her and get her seen if still uncomfortable the next day. but the next day was like nothing had happened.... so i was SO relieved. 

when we were due again (last night, around 7pm), i was really nervous, she sprung a leak that day, but we tried again the next day, and i was successful. she did sit up a bit, and luckily i was able to move the needle (my hand) kind of up with her, rather than trying to hold everything still like i did before. it *went* well. I was happy with myself and happy for her.... until about 3 hours later again. she didnt look painful like the time before, but still, off. uncomfortable in a way. she didnt cry out, but when i went to pet her, she meowed, like she wanted to be left alone. so, i left her be. she did bounce back again earlier today, and i was relieved again. but, she still had some of her fluid elbow pocket around 3pm today, nearly 24 hours later. 

so i called the vet and described what had happened, last time and this time. He seems to sound like that she may just need a break, shes only at twice a week, but we were at 3 times a week, and before that she was being poked and messed with in hospital with IV's. So, he recommended holding off on her next dose and seeing how shes doing around monday or tuesday of next week. since at last check (touching wood) her numbers were donig really well, and with all the extra fluids ive added to her food... he feels it would be safe to hold off. 

as of right now i am a little bit nervous as she didnt feel like having a treat, shes been kinda chilling out in my room... but she has eaten a couple of times today.... and since she still had that extra fluid in her elbow, im guessing she still is not feeling 100%, but still much better than last night. she hasnt been protesting pets anymore... 

i just feel like what if i cursed her wellness by telling the vet that aside from the couple times after fluids you would never know we had a sick cat. i hope shes just not feeling hungry or liek a treat at the moment, but is okay. shes grooming herself right now, and if i call her she is still bigger eyed. im probably just paranoid now! lol

 

[momofmaxwell]

Hi pawprints.

How much fluids are you giving per session? You may have already posted that.I'm sorry for reasking.What size of needle are you using.I never ever used the 18 guage harpoon that most vets give you.I used a 21 guage ultra thinned wall terumo brand.But many use the 18 but not me not even in a pinch.Just me.

Are you using Lrs or ?? I did on occasion get it into the foot which i didn't realize until being told by my internist it is very painful for them.Your kitties heart is ok right? I have seen as little as 60 mls make a kitty go into cardiac arrest from an underlying heart condition no one knew of.

Good your vet said to stop & take a break.I don't know how much you are giving at one time.I don't mean a heart murmer I mean having an echo performed to check the heart.But if you re giving a lot of fluids it does make the kidney's work harder.Maybe kitty doesn't feel well after when it gets them kicked in.

Good job!!! Hugs C.

 

[lisamarie12]

Pawprints, sorry you had a bad experience this past subq session, it happens. I remember it took us awhile to figure out how to best give our cat subq's.

I agree with Mom of Maxwell: needle size can make all the difference. We were also given the "fire hose" 18 gauge needle by the vet only to find out that the Terumo 21 gauge was much easier on kitty. It takes a little bit longer with the 21 g but was worth it.

We ordered all our supplies online after getting an Rx from the vet and always opted for the 21 g.

Good luck, I'm sure it'll work out once you get into the swing of things and kitty will start to feel better.