CKD kitty/SubQ and other questions

[silent meowlook]

I don’t ever want to go against what your vets are saying, except this sounds so dangerous to me.

When I worked emergency and we had cats come in extremely critical, young cats with trauma that were crashing, we wouldn’t put them on a rate that high. So, I honestly don’t understand how this could help the cat and not severely cause life threatening damage.

When my own cat was in end stage kidney failure, I still only did SQ at home.


Your cat’s kidney values are very high for a cat with chronic kidney disease. But, giving the cat 200 mls IV over a couple of hours, isn’t going to do anything but temporarily decrease the values, provided he survives the fluids, and then you’ll be right back where you were.

I think it is great you are doing everything in your power to help your cat. I also feel you have a realistic view of what’s going on. Just remember that you want to treat the cat not the numbers. I think you are doing that.

How is he feeling now?

 

[skylerlark]

I don’t ever want to go against what your vets are saying, except this sounds so dangerous to me.

When I worked emergency and we had cats come in extremely critical, young cats with trauma that were crashing, we wouldn’t put them on a rate that high. So, I honestly don’t understand how this could help the cat and not severely cause life threatening damage.

When my own cat was in end stage kidney failure, I still only did SQ at home.


Your cat’s kidney values are very high for a cat with chronic kidney disease. But, giving the cat 200 mls IV over a couple of hours, isn’t going to do anything but temporarily decrease the values, provided he survives the fluids, and then you’ll be right back where you were.

I think it is great you are doing everything in your power to help your cat. I also feel you have a realistic view of what’s going on. Just remember that you want to treat the cat not the numbers. I think you are doing that.

How is he feeling now?

Anyone can put up a certificate with a little knowledge in their field to say they are a vet, lawyer, doctor etc here. The SE Asian countries are very corrupt. No one ever's prosecuted for malfeasance so you must just observe and use your discernment. Thanks, absolutely no more IV.

The CKD should have been picked up months ago with a vet who'd successfully managed his liver disease but no recommendations (such as subQ) given.

Then next vet kept him on IV for a week at his clinic and insisted I feed him only renal diet. He looked terrible.

So then animal hospital and old well established vet recommended tuna, which sent his values up. The assistant doctor had to keep her mouth shut as 'losing face' huge here. However, she was the one who recommended the subQ, no mention of renal 'food'. They'd also carried out the IV procedure, after which he wobbled all over the place and would eat nothing for a day and a half. She'd also mentioned my local clinic could do it 'next time'. There will be no next time from what you've said.

I've now taken his care into my own hands, give him 100 mils subQ daily and feed him a senior kibble he likes and a small amount of cat smoothie containing albumin through a syringe several times a day. One very good thing here is that you can buy their locally made holistic (not conglomerate) cat food of all kinds, made in Chiang Mai and distributed widely, so there's that. I also supplement him with krill oil capsules with added astaxanthin. No more 'vets' except my local clinic for little emergencies and hope for the best.

Thank you for your reply, means a lot.

 

[skylerlark]

Oh, and a B12 shot once a week.

 

[silent meowlook]

I think with your cat, you have to figure what is working and what is not. If the IV's make him worse, then don't do them. So, I think you are on the right track here. Having his blood pressure checked would be great, but it sounds like that may not be an option where you are.

I am sorry about the lack of appropriated medical care where you are. Fortunately it sounds like you have a good understanding of the disease.
Please keep us posted on how he is doing.

 

[skylerlark]

I think with your cat, you have to figure what is working and what is not. If the IV's make him worse, then don't do them. So, I think you are on the right track here. Having his blood pressure checked would be great, but it sounds like that may not be an option where you are.

I am sorry about the lack of appropriated medical care where you are. Fortunately it sounds like you have a good understanding of the disease.
Please keep us posted on how he is doing.

Just as I thought things were going well, I'd given him 5ccs of the Choo Choo containing albumin (chicken and egg white basically) through a syringe. I then gave him some more (about 10ccs) this afternoon and he stopped drinking water. It's incredibly hot here right now so I syringed some water into his mouth, just a little. He then ran to his litterbox and I spotted the urine with the same foam dead center I'd spotted even before I started giving him the smoothie and on closer inspection noticed he'd defecated what looked to be the smoothie out also. I'd noticed he was also quite wobbly on his paws, although can still walk.

I tried calling two vets who were either not available or dementia set in. I gave him a bowl of mineral water (he usually will only drink rainwater, but there's no rain here right now). Surprisingly, he drank a little but when I offered him the bowl again, he ran away. He did nibble a little of the senior kibble. Should I stop the wet smoothie altogether? Thanks

 

[silent meowlook]

I would if he were my cat. That kind of drastic reaction to it can’t be good. I wouldn’t worry about syringing him water. If you are doing the SQ fluids, that should be enough.

Just make sure all the fluids from the previous dose of fluids have been absorbed before giving more.

 

[skylerlark]

I would if he were my cat. That kind of drastic reaction to it can’t be good. I wouldn’t worry about syringing him water. If you are doing the SQ fluids, that should be enough.

Just make sure all the fluids from the previous dose of fluids have been absorbed before giving more.

Thank you. My feeling too. You keep hearing about CKD MUST be on wet food but if it's having this affect, dry it is. Albeit I do believe the bought in desperation Fancy Feast was the culprit of his sprint to his box a while back as nothing else to hand and another poster had the same problem with the same brand.

When you say to make sure all the fluids are absorbed before giving more, I give him the subQ at 6 am every morning, so the same time every day during which time - 24 hours, it should all have been absorbed right? Is it that a surfeit of water, as when vet put him on IV, makes him wobbly?

Another odd thing is the rainwater only. He used to drink any water constantly, I've had him 8 years and he's always drunk ANY water copiously. And this of course is way before the subQ. Now, rain or very rarely and reluctantly mineral (closest to rain I could think of) and he does still constantly ask for water, and if it's now not rainwater he turns his nose up at it, excepting his drinking mineral straight after last run to box. So, to sum up, don't sweat over wet food or water? Thank you.

 

[silent meowlook]

Well, obviously in a perfect world he would be on a canned diet with a phosphate binder. The world isn’t perfect. It’s much better he eat the wrong food than eat nothing at all. So most important he eats.

The SQ fluids can make them not drink as much, so can the canned food because of the moisture content.

The mineral water, I don’t know about. I wouldn’t think it would be a good idea, but if he wants it?

As you know, his creatinine is very high. This isn’t without significance. He is a very sick kitty. That being said, what you describe doesn’t sound that sick. I would say let him have what he wants at this point.

Another thing to remember is that cats don’t follow rules. Just because his bloodwork looks bad, it doesn’t mean he is aware of that. You know, the old saying,” treat the cat, not the lab values”

You will be the best judge of how he feels and it seems like you are doing the best you can considering the lack of vet care you have there.

If he was my cat I would let him eat and drink what he wanted ( within reason, no beer or pizza) I wouldn’t syringe another thing into him, I’d make sure he had a safe warm spot to sleep and I would try to be happy around him and not let him know you are worried or stressed. That’s if he was my cat.

 

[skylerlark]

Well, obviously in a perfect world he would be on a canned diet with a phosphate binder. The world isn’t perfect. It’s much better he eat the wrong food than eat nothing at all. So most important he eats.

The SQ fluids can make them not drink as much, so can the canned food because of the moisture content.

The mineral water, I don’t know about. I wouldn’t think it would be a good idea, but if he wants it?

As you know, his creatinine is very high. This isn’t without significance. He is a very sick kitty. That being said, what you describe doesn’t sound that sick. I would say let him have what he wants at this point.

Another thing to remember is that cats don’t follow rules. Just because his bloodwork looks bad, it doesn’t mean he is aware of that. You know, the old saying,” treat the cat, not the lab values”

You will be the best judge of how he feels and it seems like you are doing the best you can considering the lack of vet care you have there.

If he was my cat I would let him eat and drink what he wanted ( within reason, no beer or pizza) I wouldn’t syringe another thing into him, I’d make sure he had a safe warm spot to sleep and I would try to be happy around him and not let him know you are worried or stressed. That’s if he was my cat.

Would the 5 ccs of the mousse (big syringes) he was able to keep inside make a difference do you think? Vet number 3 told me egg white (albumin) very good for kidneys. He used to eat it freely but incredibly difficult cat, and yes, he does pick up off of my anxiety. He now sits in front of his kibble as if he were saying grace and won't touch it until I've topped up a little more FRESH I'd just given him.

He likes his 'senior cat' kibble, and the occasional rat, if he can catch one. But that's it. He really liked the Fancy Feast but won't chance commercial food any more either. And after all, he was on kibble (Royal Canin Fiber) for his constipation for more than a year. To look at him you wouldn't think there was anything wrong, even vet number 3 said so. He's very active and not at all skinny. I let him out into the jungle for exercise early mornings and at night. He's black so the dogs can't see him.

He doesn't like the mineral water and will only drink it if desperate but it's the nearest thing I could think of to rainwater. I give him tap, filtered (two types) but a muddy puddle it must be.

Thanks again.

 

[silent meowlook]

Oh, please be careful with him going outside. I just worry that something will happen to him.

Nutrition is not my best subject. I have found a lot of useful information on
Cat info.org you might be able to find out there.

 

[skylerlark]

Oh, please be careful with him going outside. I just worry that something will happen to him.

Nutrition is not my best subject. I have found a lot of useful information on
Cat info.org you might be able to find out there.

We live in a very forested area. He used to go out for hours until they started building everywhere. He's safe and most of all, happy to wander around. I have a neighbour with five cats she keeps inside but she's up near the main road. I can't bear the thought of him being deprived of his freedom. He only wanders for around an hour. He knows how to stay out of harm's way. I'd rather be dead than trapped, which is what I'm feeling now.

On another note, I took the Choo Choo albumin around to my local clinic and long story short, turns out it was the overload of phosphorous in it made him sick. I'd overdosed him, again. I've ordered some calcium carbonate to mix in just 5 ccs per day. Vet said to sprinkle it on his senior kibble, but being dry (he won't touch it if it's moistened) I'll just have to see how that goes.

 

[skylerlark]

I would if he were my cat. That kind of drastic reaction to it can’t be good. I wouldn’t worry about syringing him water. If you are doing the SQ fluids, that should be enough.

I'd forgotten about this. This is what my local vet at little clinic said too when mentioning my concerns about his only being fed 'holistic' locally produced kibble. 'Don't worry too much, you're giving him subQ so he's getting enough moisture'.

Reassuring. Thanks again.

 

[skylerlark]

I'd forgotten about this. This is what my local vet at little clinic said too when mentioning my concerns about his only being fed 'holistic' locally produced kibble. 'Don't worry too much, you're giving him subQ so he's getting enough moisture'.

Reassuring. Thanks again.

Despite my saying enough with the vets, after last night's near death experience with cat (well, he'd also been out on the prowl. I trust him, he comes back after 1 to 2 hours) I took him to animal hospital for phosphorous test and the results show it's just above normal. However, his BUN and Creatin still high, particularly his BUN. This vet recommended I give 100 mils of subQ twice a day, so not all at once, in the absence of any overnight for a week stay on IV fluids and to take him back (Iwon't too far and local can do it). Problem is only overnight stay is the vet who'd force fed him renal food. I could insist but he's a bit of a w@@nker, and in any case, how long are these intermittent stays going to go on? That one (overnight) doesn't take care of the animals either. Here's his numbers today, would be happy if you would give your thoughts. Thanks.