BUN and Creatinine continuing to rise...problem????

[vball91]

I am glad your vet put your worries to rest. She sounds like a great vet! I do think it's a good idea to test again in 3 months just to make sure.

I've been following this thread with interest since I still haven't decided what to do about a new vet. I can't imagine having blood tests done with a vet who is not at least familiar with raw feeding and what to expect.

 

[ldg]

Sally, that is the most important tool in your arsenal at a time like this: a vet you trust. !!!!!!! :heart2:

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

I am glad your vet put your worries to rest. She sounds like a great vet! I do think it's a good idea to test again in 3 months just to make sure.

I've been following this thread with interest since I still haven't decided what to do about a new vet. I can't imagine having blood tests done with a vet who is not at least familiar with raw feeding and what to expect.

have you tried this website?  http://www.ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html

Dr. Christina isn't too familiar with raw, but she isn't opposed to us feeding it.  She did ask exactly WHAT we were feeding this time, though, to make sure it's completely balanced, which I thought was GREAT!   (maybe she's thinking about converting

)   And she knew her numbers would be higher.  Just not THAT high.  Guess it's just Callie.  As Carolina said, Hope's numbers are higher than probably should be, like Callie, yet Laurie's Flowerbelle's are still with the normal range.  So each cat is different, whether on raw or not. 

 

[feralvr]

Sally, just saw this and want to pass along my vibes and hugs to you and Callie. I am glad that you do have such a wonderful vet whom you can trust. So very, very important. Pipsqueak just had some blood tests run - routine. His BUN was 29! Last bloodwork was done two years ago before he started raw and it was 20. I have a new vet and am still getting to know her but she was not concerned at all because all of his other numbers were absolutely perfect. I think if Callie's other numbers are good then that would be a good sign, I hope. I know you can't ignore that high number but try to take some deep breaths and between you and your vet, you will come up with a good health plan for Callie. I know you are scared because of Sven and what you went through. Mega, mega, enormous vibes/hugs and we all care about you and your dear Callie. :heart3:

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Just a quick update on Callie's new diet

.  I rec'd her Kidney Support capsules, and she absolutely refuses to touch any food that has even the slightest amount of this stuff in it

.  And I'm supposed to give her too huge capsules per day.  So I thought I would slowly break her in on it by mixing just a teeny bit into some Weruva fishy canned food, but noooooooooo, she walked away. 

Plus since she isn't really fond Krill Oil,  bought some Salmon Oil (Kronch) and tried that out on her.  Same exact reaction as the kidney support, even when mixed with a fishy canned food.  What the heck is wrong with this princess

.  But at least she has shown a little interest in pork loin strips that I made up for Darko, but so far I haven't put any eggshell powder on them because I'm so afraid she will reject that too.  So mainly she is eating canned food, which may be what she ends up eating.  It's between Weruva and Fancy Feast classics, so far.  Dr. Christina felt that the Weruva was a little high in protein, IF she really does have kidney disease, but don't think it's any higher than raw

.

Oh, and did you realize that those eqq whites sold in cartons in the grocery store aren't JUST egg whites.  They have all kinds of stuff in them, like onion powder, etc.

  Thank goodness I checked before buying.  BUT, there were several different ones, and I finally found one that was 100% egg whites, so got that one.  Now I just need to figure out what to cook them in, since she didn't like it when I poached an egg for her.  I'm thinking maybe I could try scrambling a little of this in unsalted butter.  That way she could get the flavor anc calories of butter without the added sodium.  What do you guys think?

 

[vball91]

Isn't that always the case? The ones who need something refuse it. Especially the princesses.

I think that's a good idea about scrambling the egg whites in unsalted butter. If that doesn't work, try mixing in a topper she likes to disguise the flavor. I've heard that some cats don't like the taste of egg whites. When I scramble an egg for Aria, I put in some ground dried shrimp which works great for little miss seafood addict.

 

[ldg]

Sally - you sure have your hands full! Wow - that is one kitty that knows what she wants (and doesn't want!)

ARE there any toppers/treats she likes???? I'd make her an egg white omelet. :lol3:

 

[lcat4]

I hope it's okay that I interrupt (jump into) your conversation.  I've been following it with interest.  My two boys have elevated BUN and Creatinine numbers, both around 50 BUN and 2.8 (Lewis) and 2.5 (Clark) for their Creat numbers.  I've been feeding them boneless raw ground since November.  We started out using the bone extract as the calcium source, then I found out their numbers, so in January I switched to using Alnutrin with eggshell as the supplement.  Lewis hasn't had another blood drawn yet (so maybe his was an anomaly), but Clark gets his blood drawn monthly and the numbers haven't changed.  He's a bit more complicated because I think his kidney problem stems from the NSAID he takes for his cancer, but I was still hoping that there would be a slight drop with the lower phosphorus in the diet. 

I've wondered about adding fat to the diet to further lower the phosphorus, they currently get upper 20% fat, upper 60% protein.  Clark won't eat pumpkin so I can't add that, besides carbs can feed the cancer.  I also don't want to lower the overall protein too much because it's important for their muscle mass. Anyway, I haven't come up with a solution yet, but wanted to acknowledge the issue.  

I would also like to say that when Lewis got his blood drawn, the vet made no mention of his kidney levels.  We were looking at other numbers and she discussed those.  I only found out the BUN/Creat numbers when I asked for a copy of the blood work.  It's become a major concern to me, but apparently she didn't get riled up about the levels. 

Thanks for letting me pop in. 

Lori

 

[carolina]

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/blood-urea-nitrogen

It is important to understand why we have high BUN levels, and why our vets are not concerned - realize we are feeding VERY high protein diets. :nod:

A blood urea nitrogen (BUN) test measures the amount of nitrogen in your blood that comes from the waste product urea. Urea is made when protein is broken down in your body. Urea is made in the liver camera and passed out of your body in the urine.

A BUN test is done to see how well your kidneys camera are working. If your kidneys are not able to remove urea from the blood normally, your BUN level rises. Heart failure, dehydration, or a diet high in protein can also make your BUN level higher. Liver disease or damage can lower your BUN level. A low BUN level can occur normally in the second or third trimester of pregnancy

If you are concerned, ask for a urinalysis. A Urine that is DILUTE combined with high BUN/Creatinine, as well as high blood pressure and symptoms your cat might be having will help your vet diagnose your kitty.

If your kitty is feeling well, do NOT go by only BUN and Creatinine if you feed a raw diet - that won't work to diagnose CRF (or frankly, to be extremely concerned about it). Talk to your vet, a vet who understands RAW.

 

[ldg]

Carolina, thank you for posting that from WebMD. Reminded me to post this:


This is a $1.99 ebook from Dr. Jean Hofve. But the relevant point in it is:

Increases in BUN and Creatinine are frequently associated with chronic renal insufficiency or renal failure, but they cannot be accurately assessed without a urinalysis at the same time as the blood. Unfortunately, increases in these values are sometimes interpreted as kidney disease when they are merely a reflection of mild dehydration, or a result of what the cat ate for breakfast.

The emphasis is NOT mine, it's emphasized in the ebook.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/blood-urea-nitrogen

It is important to understand why we have high BUN levels, and why our vets are not concerned - realize we are feeding VERY high protein diets.

A blood urea nitrogen (BUN) test measures the amount of nitrogen in your blood that comes from the waste product urea. Urea is made when protein is broken down in your body. Urea is made in the liver camera and passed out of your body in the urine.

A BUN test is done to see how well your kidneys camera are working. If your kidneys are not able to remove urea from the blood normally, your BUN level rises. Heart failure, dehydration, or a diet high in protein can also make your BUN level higher. Liver disease or damage can lower your BUN level. A low BUN level can occur normally in the second or third trimester of pregnancy

If you are concerned, ask for a urinalysis. A Urine that is DILUTE combined with high BUN/Creatinine, as well as high blood pressure and symptoms your cat might be having will help your vet diagnose your kitty.

If your kitty is feeling well, do NOT go by only BUN and Creatinine if you feed a raw diet - that won't work to diagnose CRF (or frankly, to be extremely concerned about it). Talk to your vet, a vet who understands RAW.

It's not the BUN she's concerned about.  It's the Crea.  And we did the Urine Specific Gravity test in August, and it came back very dilute, so things were perfect back than even though her Crea was high at that time.  That's why we will wait and do another BUN, Crea AND Urine Specific Gravity test all AT THE SAME TIME in about three months, since this time when she did the senior panel, she wasn't thinking kidney disease at all, so she never even thought about taking a urine sample.  We're all (DH, myself and our Vet) just overly sensitive to kidney disease since we lost Sven to it just about a year ago, so we panic at the least little thing.  But I'd rather be safe than sorry.

 

[carolina]

Carolina, thank you for posting that from WebMD. Reminded me to post this:


This is a $1.99 ebook from Dr. Jean Hofve. But the relevant point in it is:
The emphasis is NOT mine, it's emphasized in the ebook.

Which is why I posted about asking for the Urinalysis at the same time.
It is important to know to expect higher numbers - there are studies on that, unfortunately so far only on dogs........ but there are.
Also, remember the condition of your cat.

Last but not least, As Laurie said, a DILUTE urine combined with HIGH BUN/Crea will often be sign of trouble. That is a much more complete way to tell, as oppose of only blood count. Specially for us, feeding raw :nod:

For some reason, blood pressure is important too - not sure how that relates to kidneys, but apparently it does, so it is worthy checking if you are concerned.

 

[carolina]

It's not the BUN she's concerned about.  It's the Crea.  And we did the Urine Specific Gravity test in August, and it came back very dilute, so things were perfect back than even though her Crea was high at that time.  That's why we will wait and do another BUN, Crea AND Urine Specific Gravity test all AT THE SAME TIME in about three months, since this time when she did the senior panel, she wasn't thinking kidney disease at all, so she never even thought about taking a urine sample.  We're all (DH, myself and our Vet) just overly sensitive to kidney disease since we lost Sven to it just about a year ago, so we panic at the least little thing.  But I'd rather be safe than sorry.

You can't see only that level. The BUN going high along with Creatinine is not as much of an issue. The issue is when they go out of proportion. In a high protein diet, both go high.
Vegetarian people, for example, have both low.
Vets don't see the numbers separately - they see the ratio......

 

[carolina]

http://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/bun/tab/faq

3. What is a BUN/Creatinine ratio?

Occasionally, a doctor will look at the ratio between a person’s BUN and blood creatinine to help them determine what is causing these concentrations to be higher than normal. The ratio of BUN to creatinine is usually between 10:1 and 20:1. An increased ratio may be due to a condition that causes a decrease in the flow of blood to the kidneys, such as congestive heart failure or dehydration. It may also be seen with increased protein, from gastrointestinal bleeding, or increased protein in the diet. The ratio may be decreased with liver disease (due to decrease in the formation of urea) and malnutrition.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

I hope it's okay that I interrupt (jump into) your conversation.  I've been following it with interest.  My two boys have elevated BUN and Creatinine numbers, both around 50 BUN and 2.8 (Lewis) and 2.5 (Clark) for their Creat numbers.  I've been feeding them boneless raw ground since November.  We started out using the bone extract as the calcium source, then I found out their numbers, so in January I switched to using Alnutrin with eggshell as the supplement.  Lewis hasn't had another blood drawn yet (so maybe his was an anomaly), but Clark gets his blood drawn monthly and the numbers haven't changed.  He's a bit more complicated because I think his kidney problem stems from the NSAID he takes for his cancer, but I was still hoping that there would be a slight drop with the lower phosphorus in the diet. 

I've wondered about adding fat to the diet to further lower the phosphorus, they currently get upper 20% fat, upper 60% protein.  Clark won't eat pumpkin so I can't add that, besides carbs can feed the cancer.  I also don't want to lower the overall protein too much because it's important for their muscle mass. Anyway, I haven't come up with a solution yet, but wanted to acknowledge the issue.  

I would also like to say that when Lewis got his blood drawn, the vet made no mention of his kidney levels.  We were looking at other numbers and she discussed those.  I only found out the BUN/Creat numbers when I asked for a copy of the blood work.  It's become a major concern to me, but apparently she didn't get riled up about the levels. 

Thanks for letting me pop in. 

Lori

Of course it's ok to jump in.  Interesting to know that you haven't seen any changes in Lewis's Crea since switching him over to eggshell powder.  Even is he on NSAID (

), I would think it still might have lowered it.  Hmmm.  Well, I'm still going to try it, IF Callie gives me a chance.  (referencing the fact that she is giving me one heck of a time eating raw right now

)

As far as adding fat, are you giving them Salmon or Krill Oil?  Obviously that is fat, and a good kind.  Also, different proteins have different fat amounts.  Lamb is fairly fatty, as opposed to ground chicken breast.  So you can add fat that way.  Plus I guess (if you grind your own) you can grind some of the skin from the chicken, or not trim off any of the fat, etc.  I did read that when making ground for kidney cats to double the amount of salmon oil.  'Course, they have to LIKE it or it's a lost cause

I'm glad to hear your Vet wasn't concerned with the higher numbers!  Is this a holistic Vet?  Hope Clark is doing ok with his Cancer treatment

.  Lewis and Clark

.  How cute!

 

[lcat4]

Thanks for the inclusion.

  I add sardine/anchovy oil, NOW Omega-3.  I add the juice of four capsules to two pounds of meat.  I actually add it to the mix at the same time as the Alnutrin and water, and then refreeze the portions.  They each eat about 1/4 pound of meat a day, so that means 1/2 capsule each day.  I've been meaning to start a post about timing and amounts for some of the supplements I add, so I'll do that sooner than later.  It sounds like I should be adding more or giving it directly.

I buy my raw meat pre-ground, so there's no skin to add. My cats mostly get turkey (dark meat) and duck (breast), with some venison and lamb.   I'm not worried about the fat level under ordinary circumstances, just whether I should be doing something differently to feed an even lower phosphorus level.  They also show signs of excess stomach acid..., but that's another post as well. 

I know you were wondering about sources for boneless ground meat.  I buy the boneless duck and venison from Halshan's.  Their meat is flash frozen when ground, USDA certified for humans, packaged for pets.  They are in San Diego, but a pet supply near(er) my house sells their meats.  Halshan's website says they ship.  The turkey is from Shelton's Turkey.  It is for humans, free range...  They say the ground is properly frozen at processing.  Their plant is down the freeway so I pick it up directly (24 pounds just this morning), but they distribute across the country.  I originally found it at a local meat market, but it was already defrosted, so that was a no go. It's just as easy to go to the plant and then I can get chicken livers as well.  The lamb is RadCat.   

I hope your Callie will adjust to eating food mixed with the eggshells. My cats have no problems with the Alnutrin added to the meats.  Sometimes they leave a bite or two, so I add 1/2 tsp of canned and stir it with the raw, and they lick the plate clean.  Of course, that could be part of their plan. 

You mentioned the Feline Instincts.  I considered them as well.  They use Calcium Lactate as their calcium source which is supposed to be very absorbable.  But I read somewhere that there was more calcium per unit (sorry-I'm not a chemist, don't remember what the unit is) with eggshell, and since I've seen it recommended as a phosphate binder as well, I decided to go that way.  Clark is also hyperthyroid and the Instincts uses kelp which can be an issue for the thyroid.  Alnutrin doesn't, so Alnutrin it is. 

 

[vball91]

Hi LCat4! Welcome to TCS! Nice to see another raw feeder here.

The issue with pre-mixing fish oil is that it's pretty fragile and oxidizes quickly, so most of us add the fish oil to the food right before serving to get maximum benefit from it.

 

[otto]

Welcome LCat4! You can add cooked egg white to your kitty's food, to keep the protein levels high without increasing the phosphurous. I don't know how much, but the others posting in this thread will know.

I am keeping close tabs on your thread Sally because Mazy goes in for her annual blood work and urinalysis next month. I want to be armed with as much info as possible, in case her Bun/Crea has gone up due to her raw diet, to spare my vet any undue worry. She is supportive of the raw diet I am feeding, but does not know very much about it, at least she didn't the last time I saw her which was back in December at Mazy's last check up (she goes every 6 months)

So I've been following this thread very closely.

My thanks to all of you for all the useful information!

 

[lcat4]

Hi vball91 and Otto, thanks for the welcome. I was reading about the egg whites earlier in the post. It would have to depend on whether anyone will eat them...I'm curious about what people think about Sally's question about Eggbeaters. Is this something that needs to be on the organic side, or because they are cooked it doesn't really matter?

I made up a little food today, did not put the omega oil in the mix, but added it directly to their food when serving. I guess it ended up a bit more than normal, and my girl Socks said no way. I'll start another thread about this kind of thing, I don't want to distract from Sally's cat's concerns. I'm reading some old threads now so not everything has to be rehashed. Thanks again. Lori

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Just an update on the egg white...I added just  little bit (uncooked) to Callie's raw ground Chicken mix this evening, and she ate it!

(did this based on Carolina's comment that Dr. Pierson said it didn't really matter if they were cooked, AND the fact that all the homemade recipes seem to call for a raw egg or two in the mixture. 

As I mentioned above...you have to be really careful on the eggbeaters, because most of them have additives like onion powder and other flavorings.  I ended up with Kroger Break Free (I think that's what they are called) that are simply 100% pasteurized egg whites.  Nothing on the carton says organic though. 

Lcat, what are you using for Omega oil?  Is it Krill or Salmon Oil.  Not sure which thread I mentioned it in, but Callie and Tinky HATE Salmon Oil, yet Darko loves it

.  Tinky likes Krill Oil, and the other two simply tolerate it, but Callie does better with her picky eating habits without it...doesn't that just figure.