Biting

[siggav]

I am still completely against using physical violence on cats no matter how "mild" the human thinks it is. Cats usually don't accept being hit as a part of living with someone and will eventually stop making the effort to be friends with their humans and the trust of a cat, once lost, can be very hard to regain.

However..

Originally Posted by Yosemite

As Rosiemac pointed out, one of the reasons the cat is probably biting is that he is using his hands to play with the cat (gloves or no gloves) and that is a huge no-no right there. That encourages them to chase your hands and bite and scratch those hands.

For some cats playing rough with a glove can help. I do this with Nikita. She's an incredibly active cat and very occasionally she just needs to go to town, kicking and biting at something that's moving. She's an only cat so she has no buddies to wrestle with other than me. I have a glove I put on and she knows the difference between hand with glove and hand without glove and has completely stopped trying to bite my bare hands since we got our routine set up.

I know this will not work for most people or most cats but it does work for us. I had a bit of a problem with her gunning for my hands when she was younger but that's all over now.

In her case the biting was 100% excess energy and an urge to play. Playing with her for atleast an hour or two every single day with no excuses using high energy toys like da bird is what pretty much solved it, in addition to around every other week or so getting out the glove when that's needed.

 

[rosiemac]

Originally Posted by Jack31

Not everyone may agree with what the OP is doing but you also have been giving advice rudely instead of in a constructive manner.

I beg your pardon, but no one in this thread has been rude?. This member wanted advice and that's what was given. Weve all been bitten and scratched by our cats at some point but weve refrained from smacking them, so if you and the OP thinks the situation is out of control with your cats biting then it might be a good idea to go down a different path and see a behaviourist?.

Originally Posted by Jack31

You get discouraged and your mind says if the only way to get them off me means a push or in my case a tap on the nose then you do it.

Again, we have to beg to differ

I made the mistake of playing blanket wars with my feet and dangling my hand in front of Rosie causing her to jump at them, scratch and bite because i thought it was cute to watch at the time. I came here and was educated on that so i didn't do it with Sophie, the outcome, no scratches and no biting from her and she's now 4 years old and still hasn't scratched or bitten me so somethings working?, and i'm proud to say i've brought Jack up the same way.

 

[jack31]

I guess if you'll attack one you'll attack em all won't ya?

I unlike the OP don't walk away and my thoughts on this forum--which I have found to be an awesome place especially for someone like me who has never owned a cat--are changing.

The fact of the matter is you won't be able to change everyones mind to think like yours--I am not saying your thinking is wrong. We are all different, our pets are all different. Again what works for one or what works for a thousand doesn't always work for the other person.

I own turtles and have strong feelings about their care--things I do are different than others and vice versa. In the end what matters is a healthy pet.

All you are reading is words (words can only convey so much) and I believe its wrong for us to assume things about posters.

If you don't like that she is hitting that is one thing. I just hate to see people not supporting the things they are saying--give me proof, direct me to a book that says hitting cats is wrong, or a book that says plastic food bowls are bad. Your word is one thing, but I like to see factual proof of things.

In the turtle world I always back up what I say with facts and direct people to the facts. I would never want someone to listen to me just because I own turtles--owning them doesn't make me a herptologist. Owning them may give me a slight upper hand but again I use facts.

Leslie

 

[siggav]

Here's a good article to read on part of the difference between cats and dogs and the cat psyche http://www.messybeast.com/cat-dog.htm

In particular

Cats form attachments to humans but are not submissive and will not tolerate the same amount of abuse that a dog will. Cats do not have a sense of their rank in a pack and do not consider that it is your birthright to bully them into faithfulness. A mistreated cat will leave if it can. A mistreated dog will often come back for more because it learns that its place in the human pack is the pariah position.

Where several cats live in a confined or isolated colony, there may be a pariah cat.Unlike a pariah dog it will not show appeasement behaviour (begging or grovelling) but will normally isolate itself to avoid being bullied. If possible it will leave the area. If not possible it will avoid its tormentors. Unlike dogs, cats have no vested interest in staying in a pack. If they can't leave the area e.g. they are confined or it is the only available food, they will eat, urinate or defecate when the other cats aren't around.

Basically because of how different cats are to us and dogs, cats aren't hard wired as social pack animals. They don't 'accept' being beaten or hit. They don't see it as 'punishment' or a sign that they're doing stuff wrong and that they should then change to have that not happen. If it happens consistently they'll see it as a sign that the human in their house has gone completely mad and is dangerous and the best thing to do would be to leave, if that's not possible staying under the bed except when the mad human is asleep is a sensible course of action.

Some of the other methods of 'punishment' can work because then there's a level if indirection involved, squirt gun or loud noises etc. so the cat doesn't necessarily figure out that you're directly connected with it, and that's more about startling the cat than it is about having them feel pain.

 

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by Jack31

...give me proof, direct me to a book that says hitting cats is wrong, or a book that says plastic food bowls are bad. Your word is one thing, but I like to see factual proof of things....

???? You need a book to tell that it is wrong for a 130 lb, creature to smack around a 10 lb creature????

I think I'm glad I don't understand this...

 

[jack31]

First off, thank you siggav for posting with factual information. I don't think that is too much to ask for.

To the others who currently are *******at me for defending someone:

If I am correct TCS rules state:

TheCatSite.com Forums is dedicated to cat care & welfare. We are a worldwide forum and therefore a mix of different cultures, races and religions; there is always room for different opinions, however, intolerance, bigotry, and religious ridicule will not be tolerated. Additionally, there is no room for flames, slams, and personal vendettas that carry on to the public view.

You are slamming me and the OP.

I think you have failed to realize that I do not thinking smacking a cat is right. I think it is wrong--I don't think a tap on the nose is harmful if it works though.

Yes I do want to see it in a book or factual website. If someone tells you that spanking a child is wrong (which I think it is) wouldn't you want factual proof stating why it is wrong? Most here believe that declawing is wrong and painful--I didn't believe that until I saw photos and read factual information (not heresay of "my sisters cat doesn't use the litter box anymore since it got declawed") People want facts not heresay.

I want facts, I don't raise my pets on what people on forums tell me. Thats why my turtles see a trained exotic reptile vet and I keep in touch with a state wildlife rehabber who works with reptiles. Thats why I keep in touch with my cats vet.

 

[psychopomp]

Yes, she is spayed.

And covered with blood? Yes. She left a nasty gash on the back of my leg, not deep enough to need stitches but a nasty gash all the same. Made worse by my jerking my leg away because I didn't know what was going on. The blood stain that wouldn't come off the carpet will testify to how bad it was.

Please don't think that I'm hurting my cat. A smack on the butt when she bites me is as far as it goes. It seems like some of you think I'm just beating her up for the fun of it. She doesn't limp away or scream. I just make my displeasure known.

I don't have a lot of experience with cats and I'm learning and acting on my instinct when something bad happens.

She's not afraid of me, she doesn't blink or back away when I pet her ever. She's becoming more and more affectionate over the last several weeks but still bites at me randomly and that's what I'm trying to take care of.

Maybe I haven't made myself clear either. Sometimes yes she chases me around and bites, I understand that that's playing. I don't like it and she shouldn't do it, but I accpet that she's playing.

But sometimes I'm sitting perfectly still without knowing the cat is even in the room with me and get bitten (I bought her a collar with a bell, but she doesn't like it and honestly she looks silly in it.. she has very thick fur and the collar makes her neck look like a palm tree). Sometimes I'm ASLEEP and get bitten... getting jolted out of sleep by fangs is not something I had in mind when I wanted a cat.

I am considering a second cat so she can work out some of her energy. But I really love this cat and other than the random biting we get along very very well and I don't want her to feel left out if another cat is around.

Please remember that the cat is biting me and hurting me, not the other way around.

 

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by Psychopomp

Yes, she is spayed.

And covered with blood? Yes. She left a nasty gash on the back of my leg, not deep enough to need stitches but a nasty gash all the same. Made worse by my jerking my leg away because I didn't know what was going on. The blood stain that wouldn't come off the carpet will testify to how bad it was.

Please don't think that I'm hurting my cat. A smack on the butt when she bites me is as far as it goes. It seems like some of you think I'm just beating her up for the fun of it. She doesn't limp away or scream. I just make my displeasure known.

I don't have a lot of experience with cats and I'm learning and acting on my instinct when something bad happens.

She's not afraid of me, she doesn't blink or back away when I pet her ever. She's becoming more and more affectionate over the last several weeks but still bites at me randomly and that's what I'm trying to take care of.

Maybe I haven't made myself clear either. Sometimes yes she chases me around and bites, I understand that that's playing. I don't like it and she shouldn't do it, but I accpet that she's playing.

But sometimes I'm sitting perfectly still without knowing the cat is even in the room with me and get bitten (I bought her a collar with a bell, but she doesn't like it and honestly she looks silly in it.. she has very thick fur and the collar makes her neck look like a palm tree). Sometimes I'm ASLEEP and get bitten... getting jolted out of sleep by fangs is not something I had in mind when I wanted a cat.

I am considering a second cat so she can work out some of her energy. But I really love this cat and other than the random biting we get along very very well and I don't want her to feel left out if another cat is around.

Please remember that the cat is biting me and hurting me, not the other way around.

I think your use of the word "smack" is much of the reason why this thread has gone badly. The word makes me think of a fairly forceful blow.

As you and others have stated, it sounds to me like she is just playing. She may have been seperated from her mother and siblings too early. Mom and sibs teach youngsters proper play manners. She may not have had the benefit of learning that hard biting is unacceptable. I don't have any personal experience with that situation but I know others have reported success with some of the techniques suggested here. That is, growling or hissy at her, blowing in her face.

Until you can get her to play more gently she may have a problem with a playmate also. She may play too rough with him/her also. If you do get another I would think a slightly older, confident male would be best in your situation. Others here have more experience than me in that regard and may think differently.

 

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by Jack31

To the others who currently are*******at me for defending someone:

If I am correct TCS rules state:

TheCatSite.com Forums is dedicated to cat care & welfare. We are a worldwide forum and therefore a mix of different cultures, races and religions; there is always room for different opinions, however, intolerance, bigotry, and religious ridicule will not be tolerated. Additionally, there is no room for flames, slams, and personal vendettas that carry on to the public view.

You are slamming me and the OP.

If you believe a post is improper you can report it by clicking on the little triangle at the top right of the post.

 

[momofmany]

Originally Posted by Siggav

Here's a good article to read on part of the difference between cats and dogs and the cat psyche http://www.messybeast.com/cat-dog.htm

Basically because of how different cats are to us and dogs, cats aren't hard wired as social pack animals. They don't 'accept' being beaten or hit. They don't see it as 'punishment' or a sign that they're doing stuff wrong and that they should then change to have that not happen.

Some of the other methods of 'punishment' can work because then there's a level if indirection involved, squirt gun or loud noises etc. so the cat doesn't necessarily figure out that you're directly connected with it, and that's more about startling the cat than it is about having them feel pain.

Cats are opportunists, and are motivated by "what's in it for me?". Punishment can't be discipline in the same sense as for dogs and people. Taking away what they want is more effective, such as giving them a time out in the bathroom when they do something wrong.

I have an over stimulation biter, and another one that bites my legs when he wants attention. It seems that you have mastered the signs of when your cat is about to bite you and are getting control over that so I won't comment on that. When my leg biter goes after me, he gets a time out. He has come around to the point that most times, he will stand in front of me and tap my feet. When he does that behavior, he is rewarded. If he bites, he gets the time out. None of this was changed overnight but took months and months of constant reinforcement.

Part of the trick with cats is the reward side. When they do things as you want, reward them. When they do things you don't want, either redirect them to what is right, or take away something they like, such as giving them a time out.

I gave up "punishment" years ago. It just doesn't work in the long run.

 

[plebayo]

We used to have a cat at the barn that would get oversttimulated and randomly attack you if you were petting her. She never gave warning signs. Sometimes she'd only swat at you, so obviously you'd leave her alone, but most of the time she'd just try to bite you. It can be very frustrating, but that's also why i never handled her hahahaha.

I know we all have different oppinions on the hitting thing. Honestly, I think because you're having aggression issues, being aggressive with your cat probably will only intensify her thinking it's okay to attack you because you're handling her roughly.

I disagree with people saying cats don't get the message when you hit them. Maybe mine are just special, but there's been a time or two I've had to tap my cats. Not in a painful way, but in a way to say "Hey, knock it off." My cat has tried to get into dork mode a few times while cleaning his ears, and I've had to tap him and tell him no. He got the message right away, and unlike that article posted, still trusts me and still comes back to me even though I've not only been technically physical with him, but I've messed with his ear which is something he hates.

To say they don't get anything out of physicalness would also mean they really don't get anything out of a time out. The cat bites you, you tap them, they run off or stop what they're doing. If the cat bites you, and you put them in a "time out" what did they learn? Oh I bit them so now they put me in a new room? If they only have a few second memory, by the time you put them in the bathroom or crate they won't know why they are there. I'm not saying I'm in favor or harming animals, or really SMACKING a cat, like hitting it with the intent to harm it, but tapping a cat, no harder than you would maybe smack yourself if there was a spider crawling on you, isn't damaging to me.

Back on topic, I don't think hitting this cat for attacking you isn't going to fix things, if anything it might get her more ramped up. I think like it's been suggested, that you could probably use a squirt gun, and set her up. Go into your room to go onto the computer, wait till she comes in, when she comes near you, as if she's going to attack you, squirt her. Essentially you want to make sure she's about to get you, not just coming in for a friendly greeting. The squirt gun should startle her, and make her forget about her personal agenda in attacking you. You could set her up in various ways, always carry the squirt gun with you or at least have it handy in places that you are. You just need to be more hyper vigilant. The other thing too might be redirecting her aggression, if she's about to go after you grab her favorite toy and start playing with her, so she can go after that.

 

[scarecrow2007]

Monday, February 11, 2008
11:50 AM

I know, but... all the running out at me from who knows where has made me nervous around her. I can't walk through the kitchen at night without worrying that I'm going to get attacked, even if it is playful it still hurts."

Wow, I can so relate..I've become quite nervous walking around my house. This is the same behavoir that prompted me to join TCS! I must say that although it HAS IMPROVED,

she still bites & scratches at times. And no, it does not seem to be the result of overstimulation, but usually random.

I found the odor of "Vicks" drives her to run far away from me!! ;-)
Sometimes only for a few minutes! Sometimes she waits to see if it's going to hurt her, but the scent never fails!

I've also done all the other suggestions…I use time out by placing her in the cat carrier for a while. This seems to calm her down a lot! Whenever she's in there, she's quiet and calm.

Thank you for all the support I get here, it's a wonderful place! So full of love!

 

[scarecrow2007]

"

if you honestly think you would throw a pot of boiling water on your cat, it's probably time to consider looking for another home for kitty."

I understand your statement here...I, too have been attacked while carrying or holding something that could hurt her or me if I was startled into dropping it or throwing my hands up in the air.

I am disabled and fall very easily at times! So it's quite scary!

I would NEVER hit, strike, throw or otherwise hurt another living creature! I guess I relate too closely with being the victim of abuse that any physical punishment is abhorrent to me!

I have accidently, though, stepped on her, or hurt her some other way and it broke my heart! She has also hurt me, leaving deep, long gashes on me that lead to infection!

You sound like a loving person and I definitely get the sense of you loving your little Briza and I totally relate to your frustration with the "drive-by's"!!!
Part of your reaction has to so with our natural instincts to "fight or flight" when attacked.

A lot of your statements have been taken out of context, but I got the impression that you were saying that you have taken the advice to try something suggested by another poster to wear heavy duty gloves and try a little "gloved aggression" and that Briza has responded to this and knows the difference between "gloved" and "ugloved." Am I correct?

Please don't stay away from here because of some of this stuff...you have positive experience, strength and hope to offer newbies like me and we need that!

When we deal with posters, we do so without the benefit of tone, nuances and other nonverbal skills that aid in communication. We just get the "words" and that makes a big difference! Please keep in touch and let us know how it goes!

 

[kiva13]

Oh my gosh. I think our cats are siblings. I just posted something before I read yours and called it vampire? They sound so much the same. I understand how you feel. It's so hard because I've always been able to trust my animals. I've never had one hurt me before and it's pretty hard to deal with. Especially when we give them so much love. I don't have any advice, but just wanted to say I understand!

 

[psychopomp]

The drive-by bitings have lessened considerably. But the top of my foot is bleeding right now because she still insists on attacking me when I don't know she's in the room.

It may be a game, but it's certainly a malicious one.

She's becoming a lap cat, more and more which is what I really wanted. She sleeps with me and she sits on the couch with me. But she still inisists on biting me for no reason.

She jumped off the countertop a few nights ago and didn't stick the landing and hit the floor pretty hard. I went to check on her and she bit me. I love my cat and wanted to make sure she was ok and she responds by biting my hand and drawing blood. And I said to her, "if you're hurt, deal with it because now I'm hurt."

The over stimulation biting isn't happening anymore which is good becuase I don't want to be afraid to pet her.

She's the most beautiful little cat I've ever seen and sweet as she can be when she wants to. But I don't think she realizes how much her fangs hurt.

 

[mschauer]

Thank you for the update and thank you for being patient with her.

I hope her behavior continues to improve.

Have you ever posted a picture of her? We love pictures!

 

[scarecrow2007]

I'm so glad to hear it's getting better. Mine seems to be worse! For some reason lately, she's biting me most of the time...I actually am in tears at times because she hurts me so much! The sneak attacks are the worst! The only time she isn't trying to bite me is when she's in heat which is every other week! When she's in heat, she's miserable! Her meows are heart rendering, she tries to rub up against everything, she constantly wants attention.

I sure hope this biting stops…it's so disheartening. I feed her, love her, take care of her and she's so, as you said, "vicious"!

Could it be because I've been feeding the strays everyday? I set out food twice a day and have made a shelter for them on my patio, so they can get out of the cold & rain. Is she jealous?

I would love to have a lap kitty who loves to cuddle and sleep with me!

Now I beg to differ, but, my little one is gorgeous and the most beautiful cat I've ever seen! :-)

Where can I learn to post pictures..? I've tried but have not been successful.

 

[robertm]

Nice to hear that more progress has been made! I know that it must seem like things are going soooo s-l-o-w-l-y but in situations like these the cat is the one who controls the tempo....

Originally Posted by Psychopomp

She jumped off the countertop a few nights ago and didn't stick the landing and hit the floor pretty hard. I went to check on her and she bit me. I love my cat and wanted to make sure she was ok and she responds by biting my hand and drawing blood. And I said to her, "if you're hurt, deal with it because now I'm hurt."

I can understand you being upset in the immediate aftermath, but you really do have to cut her some slack here. When an animal is startled or irritated or injured (and she probably was injured here, even if only for a very brief amount of time) it is never a good idea to go near them without being prepared for redirected aggression or other hostile behavior. Their adrenaline is pumping and they aren't necessarily thinking clearly. Keep in mind that cats are hardwired to do everything in their power to not outwardly display any signs of weakness, because it makes them easier pickings for predators and other cats. Of course you're not a predator or another cat, but her instinct dictates her behavior. If she's weak and on display, she's going to attack first and ask questions later, so to speak. You know that you were just checking to make sure that she was OK, but (at least at the time) she didn't know that.

I'm not trying to judge you or anything, and you are obviously doing a lot of good things to make matters better overall. I'm just recommending that you just try to look a situation like this from her point of view, and be a little more forgiving. Don't take it personally!

 

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by RobertM

I can understand you being upset in the immediate aftermath, but you really do have to cut her some slack here. When an animal is startled or irritated or injured (and she probably was injured here, even if only for a very brief amount of time) it is never a good idea to go near them without being prepared for redirected aggression or other hostile behavior. Their adrenaline is pumping and they aren't necessarily thinking clearly. Keep in mind that cats are hardwired to do everything in their power to not outwardly display any signs of weakness, because it makes them easier pickings for predators and other cats. Of course you're not a predator or another cat, but her instinct dictates her behavior. If she's weak and on display, she's going to attack first and ask questions later, so to speak. You know that you were just checking to make sure that she was OK, but (at least at the time) she didn't know that.

I'm not trying to judge you or anything, and you are obviously doing a lot of good things to make matters better overall. I'm just recommending that you just try to look a situation like this from her point of view, and be a little more forgiving. Don't take it personally!

I think you will make even more progress if you would stop taking her response to you so personally. She is a cat, not a person. Don't expect her to respond like you would expect a person to.

Please keep being patient with her.

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by scarecrow2007

Mine seems to be worse! For some reason lately, she's biting me most of the time...I actually am in tears at times because she hurts me so much! The sneak attacks are the worst! The only time she isn't trying to bite me is when she's in heat which is every other week! When she's in heat, she's miserable! Her meows are heart rendering, she tries to rub up against everything, she constantly wants attention.

How old is your cat and why is she not spayed. Allowing her to go in and out of heat is not healthy for her. She is more prone to pyometa (sure I didn't spell that right) and cancer. Unless you are a breeder your cat should be spayed. Spaying will also probably call her down considerably and you may find her biting will stop.