Anyone want to chat about "by products, "meal" ... or rather not think about it? ;-)

[ldg]

I know there can be 4D animals in *rendered* ingredients. I said it isn't clear to me whether there can be 4D animals in *non-rendered* ingredients.

Oh yeah - haven't figured that one out yet either. The link at born-free about pet food implies it can be, but I haven't found anything to support that yet. In fact, it doesn't imply it, it says it. I quoted the section in my earlier post.

 

[mschauer]

I know there can be 4D animals in *rendered* ingredients. I said it isn't clear to me whether there can be 4D animals in *non-rendered* ingredients.

Oh yeah - haven't figured that one out yet either. The link at born-free about pet food implies it can be, but I haven't found anything to support that yet.

In fact, it doesn't imply it, it says it. I quoted the section in my earlier post.

It might be true but I would want something more than just what is on the born-free site. One reason I question that 4D animals could be in non-rendered ingredients is that almost every site that harps on the 4D issue only mentions it with regards to rendered products. It should be of much greater concern if 4D animals could be in non-rendered products because the rendering process does provide some benefits towards making the use of 4D animals safer. I would think the loudest screaming would be over the use in non-rendered products if it actually did happen.

 

[ldg]

It might be true but I would want something more than just what is on the born-free site. One reason I question that 4D animals could be in non-rendered ingredients is that almost every site that harps on the 4D issue only mentions it with regards to rendered products. It should be of much greater concern if 4D animals could be in non-rendered products because the rendering process does provide some benefits towards making the use of 4D animals safer. I would think the loudest screaming would be over the use in non-rendered products if it actually did happen.

:nod: I agree. Personally, I don't think it is. The AAFCO definition of meat by-products CLEARLY states "slaughtered" animals. :nod: I'm pretty sure that means it's not 4D animals.

It says the same for "beef." Includes "from slaughtered animals." Doesn't say it for chicken though.

 

[muezza]

In general that is true. Poultry meal is poultry meat, skin and (I think) bone that has been rendered into a meal. Poultry by-product meal is, well, poultry by-products that have been rendered into meal.

Actually, I'm so sure it really is as simple as "named item meal" = "named item" + rendering. It still isn't clear, to me anyway, whether non-rendered  by-products can be composed of 4D animals.

Chicken meal is what is leftover after the meat has been stripped off at the processing plant, the carcass is further processed into meal. meal has very little meat in it.There seems to be quite a bit of confusion on this thread about what is meat and what is by product.Chicken meal has organs, bones, brains ECT.In my opinion meat by products are a good thing IF they are from a healthy,fresh source.

 

[mschauer]

In general that is true. Poultry meal is poultry meat, skin and (I think) bone that has been rendered into a meal. Poultry by-product meal is, well, poultry by-products that have been rendered into meal.

Actually, I'm so sure it really is as simple as "named item meal" = "named item" + rendering. It still isn't clear, to me anyway, whether non-rendered  by-products can be composed of 4D animals.

Chicken meal is what is leftover after the meat has been stripped off, meal has very little meat in it.There seems to be quite a bit of confusion on this thread about what is meat and what is by product.Chicken meal has organs, bones, brains ECT.In my opinion meat by products are a good thing IF they are from a healthy,fresh source.

I know the difference between a meat and a by-product. I was trying to come up with a general definition for a meal something along the lines of "a meal is the same as the same product without the word meal in it but which has been rendered". But as I pointed out that definition fell apart with regards to by-product meals since by-product meal can contain 4D animals and I'm pretty use a non-meal (non-rendered) product cannot. Given that I realized my general definition was flawed I probably should have just deleted the post since it seems to have just created more confusion.

 

[ldg]

Chicken meal is what is leftover after the meat has been stripped off, meal has very little meat in it.There seems to be quite a bit of confusion on this thread about what is meat and what is by product.Chicken meal has organs, bones, brains ECT.In my opinion meat by products are a good thing IF they are from a healthy,fresh source.

In fact, that's true for CHICKEN too. :nod:

AAFCO definition of chicken:

Chicken - the clean combination of flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from the parts or whole carcasses of chicken or a combination thereof, exclusive of feathers, heads, feet and entrails.

The meat is stripped for human consumption. There are meat scraps left on the bones. "Chicken" can be mostly bone. But other than human grade foods (like Weruva), "chicken" doesn't necessarily mean much meat. In fact, even most mechanically recovered meat goes back into the human food chain: http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/faq/93439/

If it is rendered, that is then chicken meal.

 

[muezza]

I read "byproducts" means things like beaks, feet, and feathers, not the organs you say they are. That is why I always assumed they are bad - they are from the outside of the bird. Sorry, I can't remember the source.

Maybe "poultry byproducts" is an attempt to hide the fact cats are not getting all animal parts from the same bird.

Byproducts can include organs.After the processing plant has stripped off the meat and maybe various organs  destined for human consumption, what is left over is a carcass.Various parts of the carcass are destined for pet food, so that can mean all of the carcass or portions of it.Here are the facts.http://www.weaselwords.com/ferret-articles/by-products-what-are-they/

 

[ldg]

Found a company that sells chicken stuff into the pet food industry: http://www.inghams.com.au/ingredients/products_category.aspx?docId=472&prodCatgId=156 It's in Australia, but gives the idea.

 

[muezza]

maybe you are thinking of 'byproduct'? which is a carcass that can be used to make meal.I keep in mind the processing plant procedures.1. whole chicken.2. chicken stripped of all meat and organs destined for human consumption.3 carcass(byproduct).4 byproduct processed into meal.Does this make sense? not so sure

 

[emilymaywilcha]

Byproducts can include organs.After the processing plant has stripped off the meat and maybe various organs  destined for human consumption, what is left over is a carcass.Various parts of the carcass are destined for pet food, so that can mean all of the carcass or portions of it.Here are the facts.http://www.weaselwords.com/ferret-articles/by-products-what-are-they/

Then how do you explain the fact that chicken liver is listed seperately?

 

[ldg]

The company uses enough chicken liver they chose to list it separately, as it was meaningful by weight. :dk:

 

[mschauer]

Byproducts can include organs.After the processing plant has stripped off the meat and maybe various organs  destined for human consumption, what is left over is a carcass.Various parts of the carcass are destined for pet food, so that can mean all of the carcass or portions of it.Here are the facts.http://www.weaselwords.com/ferret-articles/by-products-what-are-they/

Then how do you explain the fact that chicken liver is listed seperately?

Chicken liver is a human consumable product and so is not a "by-product". Plus organs can be listed separately they don't have to be lumped into "by-products".

Correction: According to the AAFCO definition for meat by-product it can include livers. I would guess that is because there isn't enough human demand for it so the left overs are dumped in the by-products. Still there is nothing to say livers or any other organ can't be listed separately. 

 

[ldg]

maybe you are thinking of 'byproduct'? which is a carcass that can be used to make meal.

But if it's a chicken back (part of a carcass) or something, it isn't "by-product." It's CHICKEN.

 

[muezza]

Then how do you explain the fact that chicken liver is listed seperately?

huh? you would have to ask the company.I assume they think liver is  great since it is fit for human consumption.Seems there are countless recipes out there that include various ingredients, I make my own cat food so I do not get all stressed out over quality or toxic elements..It is cool to make my big guys food and know I am providing him year best shot at along and healthy life.

 

[emilymaywilcha]

Where did we suddenly get the word carcass from? I thought that meant the WHOLE CHICKEN after it is slaughtered, including muscle meat and organs, like how we say body for a dead person.

 

[ldg]

AAFCO definition of chicken:

"Chicken - the clean combination of flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from the parts or whole carcasses of chicken or a combination thereof, exclusive of feathers, heads, feet and entrails."



So although a "by product" of human food production, chicken carcasses stripped of most of meat for the stuff we buy in the supermarket is not a pet food ingredient called "chicken by product." Backs, necks, ribs, etc, those parts of the carcass are the listed ingredient, "chicken."

 

[ldg]

MOST pet food is made from waste of the human food industry.

So if we see "chicken" or "turkey" as the first ingredient on a list, and "corn meal" or "chicken meal" or whatever meal next on the list, for all we know, that "chicken" is mostly bone, and the protein comes from whatever "meal."

One thing is for sure. When "chicken" is an ingredient, unless you're buying commercial raw, Weruva, Wysong, or ?????? , that chicken is almost guaranteed not to be chicken breast, thigh, or leg meat that we think of as "chicken meat."

As to by-products, the ONLY one I'm sure isn't rendered is "meat by-products." And given it doesn't include 4D animals, and it's species appropriate, from everything I've seen so far, I still prefer it to any "meal" in a cat food.

 

[muezza]

Where did we suddenly get the word carcass from? I thought that meant the WHOLE CHICKEN after it is slaughtered, including muscle meat and organs, like how we say body for a dead person.

Carcass It can also mean a raw chicken stripped of most meat and organs however it may be more in reference to the culinary arts.In our household we use chicken carcass to make exceptionally rich chicken stock.So......there is some variation to the term 'carcass'. chicken by product is another term for a chicken with all parts destined for human consumption removed http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/chicken-stock-recipe/index.html

 

[muezza]

true that!

 

[violetxx]

Then how do you explain the fact that chicken liver is listed seperately?

Hmm this one has got me thinking. Many times I see Chicken Liver stated 3rd or 4th usually after either chicken, or chicken meal or by-products, so does that mean its possible that the cats could be getting a doubly whamey of liver if it can be used as chicken meat or as a by-product? Sorta like in grain-filled foods where the add the same product but with different names down the list to try and make it look like there is less than there actually is??