Anyone ever seen this kind of aggression?

[catwoman707]

 
So I guess now the trick will be-how do I get Isabel to her old personality-and position?  Sigh.  Four days ago, we were there, now...not so much. 

Edit: After I went and talked to the vet, Sadie actually hissed at me when I picked her up to cuddle-about an hour after I'd changed clothes--I still had the smell on me apparently.  It stopped after that hiss-like she realized what she was doing, but it let me know that the odd smells were a big problem.  

Odd scents are often an issue with cats. They're very scent oriented.

I'm not sure just yet on how to get Isabel back to her norm but I can share my story of my girls and what I went through, it's rather unique and might be helpful in similar ways.

Krissy came to me the day she was born, I was about to close my shop and an acquaintance of mine stopped by my store and said he just left a job site, there had been a momma cat delivering babies nearby, once born due to the workers, momma moved her litter, but left the last one behind.

After the others left he stuck around sitting in his truck so he did not keep mom away and waited to see if she did come, she did not. He couldn't just leave her so he put her in a little box and lo and behold brought her to me, why I have no idea, but I sure am grateful for that move. I love all animals but was more of a dog person and at the time had a Great Dane.

I learned fast how to care for this tiny little mouse critter, and not exactly sure what it was, maybe that she brightened my days in a not so bright time of my life, whatever, but I was so in love with her, oh my gosh, I can't describe it. Even my bf at the time, now ex would say she is a little angel sent down to put smiles and love in my heart when I needed it.

She went to work daily with me, always with me, always. Anywhere I went, traveled with me, etc.

The love I felt for her opened my eyes to the cat world, literally. How many need help, homeless, abandoned, ferals, all of the unwanted litters, etc. so this got me started caring for colonies in my town. TNR'ing and continued care of them all, and still do to this day in fact.

I started a non profit cat rescue group, I am involved in working on the city to make some much needed changes and a program for homeless cats here, have studied a great deal with doctors from UC Davis medical teaching school nearby, am on the board of directors for the local Humane Society and their cat advocate Medical advisor, I've written articles for a local magazine on tnr, etc. and an advisor here.

Krissy literally changed the direction of my life, and IS the baby She has a calm, mild way about her, she is quiet, low keyed, sweet.

During the first several years I discovered a cat who would only show up now and then at a colony nearby, that just didn't fit in, pure white long haired persian.

Well I snapped her up, that is Simone.

Simone was shy at first with me, but bonded fast, she was brought home and immediately showed she was used to fending for herself and was aggressive and pushy towards Krissy.

She was to be the top cat.

Krissy was raised by me and had no idea what Simone was up to, why she was treating her like this, etc.

It hurt my heart for her innocence, and it felt so unfair. 

So despite the fact that Simone was used to scrapping her way around and was a tough cookie, and could easily beat the poop out of Krissy, she has a much stronger personality, much confidence, etc. I wouldn't let her take that position away from Krissy.

So the only way I could help Krissy keep her status was to constantly be on guard for Simone's antics and attacks and intervene.

Stalking and pouncing, hiding around a corner in wait, I had to put Krissy's food dish down first, I had to keep removing Simone from Krissy's spot that she ran her off from and placing Krissy back there, including the endless nights of waking up with Krissy somewhere else and Simone in her spot next to my head in bed, and so many other ways, all of it.

In other words I was the one to choose Krissy to be on top, and left no choice to Simone.

It took years for Simone to finally accept this, she just wouldn't let up. When she finally did, I still had to, and still do now, keep an eye on anything that is a possible attempt to de-throne Krissy.

It all finally worked out in the end, with Krissy now almost 14 (April 4th) and Simone at somewhere around maybe 15-16+ but this was a good 10 years ago now. 

They are both my girls, and I adore them. But I had a very long road to travel in getting here. Huh, when I think back............

Anyway, this shows me that you can help play a part in how things go down in your home. It doesn't mean you love one over the other either, I know you love them both, but what worked is how it was, not how it's been lately.

So maybe give this some thought too.

At least you aren't starting from scratch, and you know yours are capable of accepting each other just fine.

Krissy and Simone have nor will they, EVER play together.

 

[anmllvr]

 

[catwoman707]

I am SO sorry it took me so long to get back to you!!

I am currently fighting to adapt to my new work schedule and it's killing me!

4 nights, 5:30 pm until 4:30 am, and my girls are very resistant to the change! Meow's in my ear, ugh..........they don't understand why I am not home during the night, so I get home and they want all my attention, etc. rather than allowing me to drop and get to sleep. Gotta love them though! Poor babies.

Now I'm off until Friday thankfully!

So true, because of Krissy coming to me and my love for her, it has helped and saved many, MANY kitties, I am so thankful for this. If only she knew, she would feel very important

Thanks for saying. 

As for your reaction to the statement that you don't love one over the other, believe me, I do understand how it brings tears to your eyes, this past year Simonewas diagnosed with CKD (chronic kidney disease) common in seniors but.....and also hyperthyroidism, had 5 teeth pulled and a suspicious lump from her lip thought to be squamous cell sarcoma, but turned out not to be. (whew!) so I felt so bad and guilty about her, and how I had to put Krissy before her for so long to help with resolve the top cat issues, etc and really love her so much too, it hurt my heart when these health things surfaced, the thought of losing her and how much that hurt, while I wouldn't let her take over Krissy's spot still, I pamper her a good amt now too.

She needs my comfort whether Krissy likes it or not, but I keep an eye on how Krissy reacts too. Simone sleeps at my head now too but on the other side! It works.

What I mean by feeding Krissy first is that I put her dish down first, they eat at the same time.

I agree about your thinking to keep Isabel in the spare room and Sadie in the house, this will help her reclaim it as hers. I would if possible allow Isabel out twice a day though, for a good while. maybe 2-3 hrs each time if possible.

You want to do this, but don't want her to feel forgotten either.

Actually you should never pick up a cat who is in a stand off with another cat, I have seen it backfire and can be seriously dangerous if bitten, now that is redirected aggression at it's finest. Your own cat turning and chomping down on your hand or arm.

Just be careful of this.

Technically, it helps to put something between them, even if it's your body, it helps to break that mode, and it should be Isabel who is removed, by removing Sadie it's sending the wrong signal to Isabel and Sadie. Like you are making Sadie back down rather than Isabel. You see what I mean?

 

[anmllvr]

No worries about it being a while before responding.   I know how other things can get in the way.  I hope Simone is okay in terms of her health and that CKD is manageble.

I knew what you meant about feeding the other cat first.  I was remembering an episode of My Cat From Hell where Jackson talked to a couple with this issue saying that one cat had to be the queen and one had to be the princess (I had forgotten all about that...even though I used some of those techniques to help my cats get along.).  When feeding one first he said to have the princess see the queen actually take a bite before feeding her (the princess).  I have problems following through on that as Sadie (queen) doesn't want to eat sometimes until Isabel is halfway through her meal. In the days when they got along, sometimes I would try that and Sadie would actually sit and watch Isabel eat from her plate rather than eat from it herself.  She would just move to Isabel's spot.  I used to try to move Isabel away from Sadie's plate several times, but she would just move back and Sadie just sat and watched.  I gave up on that. 

I modified the plan I mentioned slightly.  I have allowed Isabel out in the apartment while I am at work and then for about 1.5-2 hours after I get home.  Sadie then gets the apartment for the rest of the evening and all night.  Isabel tends to need to run (what I call the mad-cat dash) mid-morning and Sadie at around 10pm.  This lets that happen.  It also gives Sadie the entire apartment for 2/3+ of the 24 hour cycle and she generally sleeps during the time I'm at work-so I thought that would work out. 

I know it's problematic/dangerous to pick up a cat during a fight and with the exception of the second fight-I haven't reached into swatting cats.  The second one had Isabel under the bed and Sadie bleeding but still trying to get to her.  I had to throw a winter coat over Sadie and throw her in a closet to stop the fight.  When I do pick them up-it's when the vocalizations have begun that signal a knock-down drag out fight (only happened 3 times in the last six weeks).  But I see now how Sadie interpreted my actions.  I'm not sure what other recourse I had to stop the coming fight (and it was coming) because removing Isabel made things 100x worse. I tried that once and she escalated vocally in my arms which sent Sadie into protection mode and she chased both of us.  So that is something I am working on.  I've yet to find anything to put between them that get's one to not try to knock it down to get to the other cat.  I've got to move one physically somehow-maybe blankets in each room that are heavy enough to drop on one cat?  Hopefully I won't see the situation again and this won't matter, but I'd like to be prepared. 

One thing the new living arrangement has done is let me get some sleep.  Sadie isn't crying for hours non-stop during the night.  So I am sleeping and I don't have to worry neighboring apartments are going to complain to management about the noise.  Getting some sleep has done a lot for my emotional health which I think helps the cats. 

I went back to feeding with a baby gate between them and that has gone very well.  They can be right up to each other with no issues.  They have stopped enlarging their tails at the sight of the other.  I started feeding them again (and getting Sadie to eat first by not opening the door to Isabel's room until Sadie is eating) without the gate this morning.  We've done two feeds that way, about 8 feet apart, and it has gone well.  I always put Isabel in her room and she eats there (or as of today-just outside the door) and Sadie is in the apartment for meals.  I have to be on top of things, because Isabel tries to wander in the rest of the apartment and I have to stop her before she gets too far.  I'm going to continue this at this distance for far longer than I think would be necessary in order to try to get across to Isabel that I decide when she can come in the other room if Sadie is present.

My vet called this morning to let me know she is talking to other vets and behaviorists regarding my situation and for a recommendation of medications and hopes to have some medication suggestions for me tomorrow.  

 

[catwoman707]

Well I must say you certainly sound much better after a good night's rest!

You've got a good plan, the only thing left is to see about a lightweight dose of med to calm them down a bit, be sure to let her know you want to try the most conservative dose, it's really just to take that edge off that they both have going on.

Sounds great!

 

[anmllvr]

Thanks...3 days of good sleep has done some wonders for my ability to handle this.  Good advice and a listening ear (even if that listening is via reading) has worked wonders too.  Thank you and everyone else who has responded.

I definitely want the most conservative dose I can get.   I'm hoping she finds something that will work quickly (not have to build up in their system) and that is easy to wean off.   

I've wondered if one reason things are in an uproar is because Isabel is feeling good. For the first time in 5 years she's not suffering from IBD.  So she might be more willing to assert herself than she was before. She never seemed to feel bad or not want to play (until she was on Prenisilone-but that was the meds) but cats hide illness so well.  Even without the vet visit, they may have needed to work out their dynamics at some point in the future given Isabel's improved health and vivaciousness.  Or they were working them out and the vet visit slid the scales in the other direction so to speak. 

I will keep you updated and hopefully there will be steady improvement (even if it is 2 steps forward and 1 back).

 

[catwoman707]

Well it's certainly possible, just as I mentioned that it may be because Sadie is not feeling so good now, the combo of the 2 even, hard to know for sure I guess.

 

[anmllvr]

I wanted to give an update. 

I separated the cats, giving each a bedroom to be theirs and the other living spaces had to be shared, albeit one cat at a time in that space.   That worked well and we progressed once again to feeding with a baby gate between them then to no gate, but 8 feet apart while eating.  As soon as the meal was over, they were separated.

Two weeks ago, the cats started on Prozac.  After one week, the hissing at non-food meetings -like when I'm coming out of a room- had stopped.  There was a definite difference in the demeanor of the cats.  In the last 2-3 days, I have been able to let the cats be together for 2-3 hours.  Sometimes, I can see that Isabel is getting stressed and I separate them for a couple of hours before anything happens, but the difference with the medication is wonderful.  They are both still playful and energetic, but they don't get lost in the staring at each other.  

Just this afternoon, I let them out before I had the food prepared.  I brought them both out and Isabel tried to lick Sadie and they hung out together in the kitchen area, winding under chairs, up against the bar area, etc. while I prepped the food.   I got very misty eyed..   Isabel tried to get to Sadie's plate when I put it down and Sadie didn't care (but I moved Isabel away).   

One of my obstacles now is that they mostly stay to themselves.  Outside of meals, when they don't seem to notice or care that they are in the presence of another cat, Isabel seems to forget Sadie is there or be nervous around her.  She will do a double take if she is in the living room and Sadie comes down the hall into her field of vision.  She saw her 2 minutes prior but that seems almost forgotten.  I've seen Sadie do it occasionally, but Isabel does it more often.  She will go to her bedroom and lay on the bed.  She doesn't come into the living area.  Sadie can be the same. 

My other big obstacle is that I cannot (or am too afraid to) play with them in each others presence.  In the past two months, when we've reached the point that they can co-exist in the same room, when I bring out a toy and try to entice them, one starts that low moan/growl that signals or begins a big fight.  I feel like they get jealous and unfortunately there is only one of me and two of them.   So, outside of food, how do I create positive experiences in each others presence if I can't use play just yet?