Anyone ever seen this kind of aggression?

[anmllvr]

 
I definitely agree.  I think this is a dominance thing and not an aggression/recognition problem.  They'll keep fighting until you let them sort it out fully.  It'll often look/sound worse than it is.  I stumbled on a good trick though; if you feel like things are escalating too much - Cesar Millan's 'schht' () + moving towards them will often interrupt things and send both cats trotting away because you've just told them you're boss and to cut it out.  Then just leave it, don't hover or chase them, just sit down relax, and go back to doing something else. 

I would be very wary of anything Cesar Millan says.  He bases his techniques about dogs off the work by Rudolph Schenkel in the 1930's and 1940s.  The idea that wolf packs have a dominant male and female and that dominance must be maintained has permeated through the years, even though we now know better. This is a good starting link for looking into that: http://io9.gizmodo.com/why-everything-you-know-about-wolf-packs-is-wrong-502754629   If you read the comments, you will see some excellent books on the subject as well that dispel the alpha animal theory based on current research.  Millan now hides some of what he recommends-shock collars, kicks in the haunches, etc, but those are practices that he believes in and recommends.

What I am not sure of is how cats need an alpha-particularly house cats. And not that you are necessarily, you might be just giving me a good technique for breaking up a fight- but I would definitely not equate dogs behavior to cat behavior. If you are not, then I did not mean to offend your sensibilities.   House cats are often fairly non-social in terms of living in groups.  That's not to say that they don't hang out in groups and enjoy each other's company-look at any feral colony-but they don't have one cat in charge of the whole group. 

My cats certainly have their own very different personalities, and while I call Sadie dominant, it is because she will hiss at Isabel or swat at her if Isabel annoys her.  But Isabel always (in the past) backs off.  I don't think that is dominance as meaning Sadie is in charge-as it is equivalent to a human big sister/little sister stereotypical relationship.  The big sister gets annoyed and even occasionally pushes the younger one out of the chair she wants to sit in, and the little sister keeps trying to entice the bigger sister to play but will back off when big sis yells.   Welcome to the differences between the casual use of the word dominant versus the more scientific one....LOL

We were back to that status quo in the last week.  But in the last two days, Sadie might walk down a hall and Isabel really doesn't seem to know her-she stares, almost assessing, then starts hissing, the tail begins flicking, and most often, I can turn on the tv, get up and go to the refrigerator, do something that creates movement in the apartment that doesn't involve the cats but breaks the stare and settles things.  But occasionally I can't break that stare.  There is definitely some territory issues going on too in terms of where Isabel feels confident/safe.  She is particularly likely to stare, hiss, etc if she is in the living room or under the dining room table.  I have Feliway diffusers going but I used the spray and put some on the table, couch, and another piece of furniture.  That actually calmed things pretty quickly.  It just doesn't last, the way the diffusers will after enough time. 

 

[anmllvr]

In doing a little research after reading what you wrote, I found this http://www.catster.com/cat-behavior/cat-family-structure   which talks about house cat hierarchies.  Here is my dilemma.  Sadie has always been a very affectionate cat.  She rubs on me, does all the things the cats do in the article to say you are dominant over me.  And 30 minutes prior to the fight two days ago, Isabel was doing all the things to Sadie that the article says she would do to say Sadie is higher in the hierarchy than her.    However, Isabel has never liked to be touched by humans.  You can rub her head.  And only for a short time. She was found in a feral colony that she was not a part of (I ran that colony, I know who was related to whom) and was likely dropped off there when she was 4 months old.  So not sure what happened to her before that.  But she will likely never do the things to me that say I am above her, because she is averse to being touched anywhere but her head... Unless she wants to be fed or allowed on the deck-then she will rub me, bump my head, rub her face on my leg etc.   Because she knows if she does those things I will get her what she wants.  I've trained that. 

So from all those instances, it seems like Sadie sees me as higher than her in the hierarchy, and Isabel below her and Isabel definitely sees Sadie as higher and based on the fact that she will rub me and such when she wants something, I would think Isabel sees me as higher than her. 

I really do think this is a non-recognition  or redirected aggression issue from the stress of the previous non-recognition problem.    I just couldn't understand why this happend-it seemed so out of the blue.  I will give turning Isabel around a try when things begin to get tense-before they really get tense and see if that helps.

 

[JMJimmy]

 
I would be very wary of anything Cesar Millan says.  He bases his techniques about dogs off the work by Rudolph Schenkel in the 1930's and 1940s.  The idea that wolf packs have a dominant male and female and that dominance must be maintained has permeated through the years, even though we now know better. This is a good starting link for looking into that: http://io9.gizmodo.com/why-everything-you-know-about-wolf-packs-is-wrong-502754629   If you read the comments, you will see some excellent books on the subject as well that dispel the alpha animal theory based on current research.  Millan now hides some of what he recommends-shock collars, kicks in the haunches, etc, but those are practices that he believes in and recommends.

I'd disagree.  Any time he comes into a wolf hybrid he goes to a wolf expert because they have completely different dominance structures.  That's a different discussion for a different forum though.  I just found that the noise he uses was extremely effective with our strays.

Edit: I gave that link a read and it's basically replaced the term 'Alpha' with 'Parent' to disassociate some of the fallacies from the pack structure which means there's still a dominant male/female of a group, they just didn't have to fight there way there.  That's different from prides where solitary males will displace alpha males to take over the females (and kill the cubs of the competing male).  House cats are neither wolves nor lions though.

 
What I am not sure of is how cats need an alpha-particularly house cats. And not that you are necessarily, you might be just giving me a good technique for breaking up a fight- but I would definitely not equate dogs behavior to cat behavior. If you are not, then I did not mean to offend your sensibilities.   House cats are often fairly non-social in terms of living in groups.  That's not to say that they don't hang out in groups and enjoy each other's company-look at any feral colony-but they don't have one cat in charge of the whole group.

I would not equate dog/cat behaviour either.  They're night and day.  This is strictly from watching the interactions between 8 strays, family's cats, and hours of research on what each movement represents.  An example difference - dogs sniff each others rears to say hello, cats (and wolves) smell each others mouths.  If a cat tries to smell another cats butt, it's out of sexual interest or they're asking the other cat to submit.  In terms of an Alpha there are certain behaviours that cross cat species.  Things like bringing small prey to the dominant female (aka the Alpha) of the group.  This presents in house cats as mice or small birds being left as "presents" on the doorstep or bed.  Following behaviours is another, when in a group or pride situation they will follow the Alpha.  In our case, the Alpha is my wife, Mama the dominant cat will follow her everywhere when she's home but ignores me even though I'm the one who feeds her/spends more time with her, etc.  My mother-in-law is so much the Alpha of her 3 cats that they will follow her as she goes to get the mail or takes the dog for a walk in the park.  The dominant male of her group will bring her mice, stuffed animals, shoes, etc all through the night - every night.  It doesn't mean that she controls them, like a military hierarchy, just that in behavioural negotiations the Alpha has final say on what will be tolerated etc.

 

[Willowy]

Cats don't do "alpha" nonsense or try to control each other's behavior. In natural settings, cats are generally very territorial and will defend their territory, although they always seem to have some friends they allow in, who knows why. I suppose it's just like humans---you like some people and dislike others, it has nothing to do with social standing or "dominance". At any rate, they don't attempt to control another cat's behavior; they just go elsewhere if they don't want to be together. Of course, that's a lot harder for indoor cats.

Anyway, "alpha" and "dominance" are very poor ways to relate to your pets, will severely damage their relationship with you, and such thinking encourages violent and abusive behavior on the part of the owner (after all, if a pet isn't respecting your "dominance", how else to deal with it other than abuse, right?). So I don't feel that's a useful way to help your pets. Think of it more like trying to help them heal their relationship. Lots of treats, playtime, attention, etc. Try to make them feel positive about each other again. Jackson Galaxy's site may have more suggestions on the subject.

 

[JMJimmy]

Cats don't do "alpha" nonsense or try to control each other's behavior. In natural settings, cats are generally very territorial and will defend their territory, although they always seem to have some friends they allow in, who knows why. I suppose it's just like humans---you like some people and dislike others, it has nothing to do with social standing or "dominance". At any rate, they don't attempt to control another cat's behavior; they just go elsewhere if they don't want to be together. Of course, that's a lot harder for indoor cats.

I'll give you a recent example I've observed.  Mama always greets Missy, a very excited/fearful cat, with a growl and posturing until she settles down.  Then she allows her to enter her territory as you put it.  So a little while ago she did her display as usual then went back to her bed and curled up.  I then closed the door behind Missy and go back to my computer.  Missy starts to panic.  Mama had shown zero interest in her after the initial display but as soon as Missy starts behaving oddly Mama is on alert... she stalks her briefly before going in for a full dominance display and a short cat fight.  I put a stop to it quickly (without touching them) and in doing so Missy has forgotten her panic and Mama walks away, completely disinterested again.  It was 100% a behavioural correction - Mama was letting her know that what she was doing would not be tolerated. 

 

[anmllvr]

 
I'd disagree.  Any time he comes into a wolf hybrid he goes to a wolf expert because they have completely different dominance structures.  That's a different discussion for a different forum though.  I just found that the noise he uses was extremely effective with our strays.

Edit: I gave that link a read and it's basically replaced the term 'Alpha' with 'Parent' to disassociate some of the fallacies from the pack structure which means there's still a dominant male/female of a group, they just didn't have to fight there way there.  That's different from prides where solitary males will displace alpha males to take over the females (and kill the cubs of the competing male).  House cats are neither wolves nor lions though.

First, though I didn't quote you, I realize that you are not equating dog and cat behavior.  Upon rereading, I realized that after I hit submit.    I agree that the whole Cesar discussion is definitely a discussion for another forum.  He is a pet peeve of mine (especially since I have been a wolf keeper) as he does promote some things that are wrong.  His right sometimes too. 

As to the whole dominance and parent issues, it is important that we use accurate terms or at least decide what those terms are going to mean. Dominance is very different from parent. A person can be in charge, and not be dominating, but setting the tone for the group. 

Cats don't do "alpha" nonsense or try to control each other's behavior. In natural settings, cats are generally very territorial and will defend their territory, although they always seem to have some friends they allow in, who knows why. I suppose it's just like humans---you like some people and dislike others, it has nothing to do with social standing or "dominance". At any rate, they don't attempt to control another cat's behavior; they just go elsewhere if they don't want to be together. Of course, that's a lot harder for indoor cats.

Anyway, "alpha" and "dominance" are very poor ways to relate to your pets, will severely damage their relationship with you, and such thinking encourages violent and abusive behavior on the part of the owner (after all, if a pet isn't respecting your "dominance", how else to deal with it other than abuse, right?). So I don't feel that's a useful way to help your pets. Think of it more like trying to help them heal their relationship. Lots of treats, playtime, attention, etc. Try to make them feel positive about each other again. Jackson Galaxy's site may have more suggestions on the subject.

This is actually what I'm doing-I will never relate to my cats through dominance that way.  If I try to turn Isabel around so her rear faces Sadie as the other poster suggested, my hope would be that it would break the stare or simply teach Isabel that the situation diffuses if she does this and Sadie isn't a threat.  If it looks AT ALL like this makes Isabel uncomfortable or escalates Sadie, I would stop it in a heartbeat.   I don't believe in letting cats fight it out. Right now, I have them separated and am bringing them together for feedings and a little time in the same room for play.  As I mentioned in an earlier post-I have feliway diffusers going and I even have a feliway spray to use while the diffusers take effect. 

I have learned a lot from my previous reintros-like the best time  to do that with my cats is in the morning when they are normally calmer. That there are rooms where they are normally calmer than in others-so I start there and slowly move those interactions to the rest of the apartment.  I have learned the body language they use to say this is too much for me to handle so that I don't make the mistake of keeping them together longer than I meant to and things escalate.   I have learned how much my presence and anxiety over their situation affects them.  And I have learned that Sadie holds odd smells for a week! So re-introductions will always probably take that long and not to let the fact that they didn't get back together faster get me down. 

I will say though, that even if we disagree, sometimes another posters comments can spark an idea or different way of looking at a situation that is helpful and in line with what I think.

I just wish I knew what started this last bout of aggression-after a poster mentioned earlier that my work clothes smelling different could have set them off, I really think that was likely it.  Sadie went to another room and she loves(!) to rub on my work clothes which were on the floor in the bathroom.  They usually smell of small primates and other small mammals but that day, they smelled of large antelope and deer and domestic farm animals.  Something she hadn't smelled since the non-recognition aggression happened.  I think given the stresses of the previous week, that likely  caused Isabel not to be able to handle the new smells on Sadie and thus the non-recognition happened again. 

I will be changing clothes at work and bagging those items in the future when work with other than my usual animals to prevent that from happening again (if that was the cause). 

 

[catwoman707]

 
Thanks for the help on the quoting!

The currently vomiting cat (Sadie) is roughly 11 years old-she's a rescue who the vet believed was at least 1 year old when she was rescued.  So that was last March 10 years ago.  My other cat, Isabel, who is 5 and 1/2 years old, has IBD and has since she was 5 months old.  

To get Isabel's IBD under control (after years of various meds and prescription foods) I put both cats on a raw diet. Which has worked wonders!  Sadie is more active, Isabel has stopped vomiting and has no more diarrhea.  We've been on a 100% raw diet for 4 months now. 

My cats are fed 3x a day.  Once in the morning, once right after work and then before bed.  At the end of January,  Sadie vomited at the 2nd meal, 30-40 minutes after she ate it.  She kept the last meal down with no problems.  She vomited the second meal 30-40 minutes after eating for four days straight.   Never the first meal or the the third.

So the vet couldn't find what might be causing that (though Sadie does have high cholesterol apparently) and gave her an anti-nausea shot to break this cycle.

She didn't vomit for about 2 weeks.  Then it started again-only 1-2 days a week, but only at the 2nd meal. I attributed a lot of that to stress-due to the vet aggression and being locked in a room every other day due to the site swapping for re intros.

Yesterday, after the second meal, and it was Isabel's turn in the bedroom, she started to vomit.  Not wanting to clean up raw food vomit from carpet again-I followed her around with a plate under her mouth.  She tried to avoid me and ultimately did not vomit.  That was interesting to say the least .  Makes me think this is behavioral.

IBD in a cat so young is rare, although we do have one of our advisors with a cat who also started very young @Denice  who's young cat was misdiagnosed for years because of it's age.

I'm no good with talking raw, although I know that for many it does really help IBD.

This deserves it's own thread in nutrition forum so it gets the attention of other's experiences with IBD and raw feeding.

I just wish I knew what started this last bout of aggression-after a poster mentioned earlier that my work clothes smelling different could have set them off, I really think that was likely it.  Sadie went to another room and she loves(!) to rub on my work clothes which were on the floor in the bathroom.  They usually smell of small primates and other small mammals but that day, they smelled of large antelope and deer and domestic farm animals.  Something she hadn't smelled since the non-recognition aggression happened.  I think given the stresses of the previous week, that likely  caused Isabel not to be able to handle the new smells on Sadie and thus the non-recognition happened again. 

I will be changing clothes at work and bagging those items in the future when work with other than my usual animals to prevent that from happening again (if that was the cause). 

I think there's a decent chance that you are spot on with this and why it had been re-sparked.

Myself, I would try to avoid separation and re-introductions and go for a more 'time out' when needed.

As far as multi cat home dynamics, there is a hierarchy among them, females are dominant nearly always unless there is a male who is non compliant, which is rare, each cat has a position established. 

 

[JMJimmy]

Originally Posted by Anmllvr  

As to the whole dominance and parent issues, it is important that we use accurate terms or at least decide what those terms are going to mean. Dominance is very different from parent. A person can be in charge, and not be dominating, but setting the tone for the group. 

I think this is where a lot of the breakdown in communicating ideas comes in.  For me, 99.99% of the time I'm a big suck with animals, it's all love, affection, & play.  0.01% I will "dominate" them.  Not in the sense of being mean, touching them in anything but a gentle way, or trying to force them to be something other than what they are.  Rather "dominate" in the way that a parent asserts themselves non-verbally over their child when the child misbehaves.  That look your mother gives you and you immediately know she disapproves and you need to behave better.  She never says a word but you know exactly what you did wrong, exactly what you should be doing, and you do it.  To me that's dominance.  It's nothing ugly, just non-verbal communication.

 

[anmllvr]

Thanks!  I will head over to the nutrition forum tonight-I have to head out for a bit-and post about my IBD experiences and raw there.  And thanks for the thoughts on their situation.  Today has been a big improvement.  They were both on the bed together a few minutes ago and have had full access to each other for about 2 hours today with no issues.  Evenings are always more contentious but hopefully things are getting better faster than before.

 

[anmllvr]

My cats did really well today. The slept on the bed together in the afternoon and hung out in the dining room in the evening.  I moved to the living room and started to play with Isabel.    That brought Sadie out of the bedroom.  After the really good day they had, once Sadie moved to the living room that low moan/growl started tails increased in size three fold.  I was able to separate before anything major happened.  I feel like the living room has been claimed by Isabel as her territory during these weeks of re- intros.  It's where the second bout of aggression took place a couple of days ago. I sight swap my cats every twenty-four hours, but a spot in the living room has always been one of Isabel's favorites.  So I think she is feeling a bit invaded there.  I have feliway diffusers going in the hall, the living room and both bedrooms.  One more diffuser should arrive tomorrow-for the dining room/kitchn.  Is there anything else I should be doing to ease tensions in the living room?

 

[catwoman707]

I would say not really, vertical spaces are always helpful, but aside from an interception, only if needed though, to basically allow them to work out their status and territory.

Feliway diffusers can be helpful, lots of differing views from users but of course well worth a try.

I'm sure it's all rather frustrating and troublesome to you, leave it to complicated cats huh?!

 

[anmllvr]

They do like to make me stretch my problem solving skills.  They spent 2 hours sleeping on the bed yesterday and then several in the same room. But once they walked into the living room, all bets were off.  I try to let them work out their differences-if Sadie hisses at Isabel when she gets too close, I don't stop her, and vice versa.  But there seems to be no middle ground between a hiss like that and a chase that ends in blood.  I'm going to add some more vertical spaces for them. 

I have to really work more on not trying to stretch their time together too much at this stage. It's hard when I've got them sleeping 12 inches from each other to suddenly say after they wake and hang out together for an hour, sorry, you've had enough togetherness since there are no signs of stress that I can detect.  Of course, I know that's what I need to do... stop on a good note, but sometimes its not as easy as it looks to not to think 5 more minutes won't hurt under those circumstances.

.

 

[anmllvr]

.  I tried for a while to let them work it out and only intervene if I thought it was particularly bad.  It seems as though they are getting worse and worse.  To me it appears they have less and less recognition of each other.  I finally stopped letting them in free contact with each other yesterday as every interaction just seemed to escalate the hissing and screaming.  It was happening more often and seemed to be set off more easily than even in the last 2 weeks.   

I decided to start completely over.  So I am feeding them with a baby gate between them.  They do that okay. But once they are finished eating, they hiss at each other.  I figure we will do this for a few days then try free contact again.  Still site swapping every 24 hours.

I am not fairing well either.  I don't sleep if it's Sadie's turn in the rest of the apartment.  She cried for 3 straight hours last night (1am-4am) because she was not with me.  Isabel is tearing up the carpet trying to dig her way into or out of whatever room has a closed door.  (For 5 years I've had to leave doors open because Isabel digs at the carpet if they are closed and I rent, not own.) I've got thick blankets held down with 4, 20 pound weights so she can't pull the blankets out from under the door-they extend 2 feet on either side of the door.  

I know if my state of mind is poor, it's not helping them, but I've been doing this alone for 6 weeks and I thought I had it solved, it was like it used to be for 6 days, then a lightswitch flipped and we are starting again.  It seemed okay for a day or so after that, then a lightswitch flipped and its gotten worse every day since.

I've tried very hard to stay upbeat and optimistic....but I am beginning to wonder if their relationship is permanently damaged.  I know 6 weeks isn't long in the scheme of things, but I don't know how long I can keep this up before I need anti-depressants.  Sadie is extremely clingy right now and if I meet her needs, then I am ignoring Isabel.  Isabel has never been touchy-feely, she usually shows her love by being in the same room or even playing with me.  But she doesn't want to play right now.  How do I not feel guilty either about not meeting Isabel's needs or Sadie's and at the same time keep myself mentally healthy?

Sorry for the long post, I just needed to get that out...

 

[catwoman707]

 
.  I tried for a while to let them work it out and only intervene if I thought it was particularly bad.  It seems as though they are getting worse and worse.  To me it appears they have less and less recognition of each other.  I finally stopped letting them in free contact with each other yesterday as every interaction just seemed to escalate the hissing and screaming.  It was happening more often and seemed to be set off more easily than even in the last 2 weeks.   

I decided to start completely over.  So I am feeding them with a baby gate between them.  They do that okay. But once they are finished eating, they hiss at each other.  I figure we will do this for a few days then try free contact again.  Still site swapping every 24 hours.

I am not fairing well either.  I don't sleep if it's Sadie's turn in the rest of the apartment.  She cried for 3 straight hours last night (1am-4am) because she was not with me.  Isabel is tearing up the carpet trying to dig her way into or out of whatever room has a closed door.  (For 5 years I've had to leave doors open because Isabel digs at the carpet if they are closed and I rent, not own.) I've got thick blankets held down with 4, 20 pound weights so she can't pull the blankets out from under the door-they extend 2 feet on either side of the door.  

I know if my state of mind is poor, it's not helping them, but I've been doing this alone for 6 weeks and I thought I had it solved, it was like it used to be for 6 days, then a lightswitch flipped and we are starting again.  It seemed okay for a day or so after that, then a lightswitch flipped and its gotten worse every day since.

I've tried very hard to stay upbeat and optimistic....but I am beginning to wonder if their relationship is permanently damaged.  I know 6 weeks isn't long in the scheme of things, but I don't know how long I can keep this up before I need anti-depressants.  Sadie is extremely clingy right now and if I meet her needs, then I am ignoring Isabel.  Isabel has never been touchy-feely, she usually shows her love by being in the same room or even playing with me.  But she doesn't want to play right now.  How do I not feel guilty either about not meeting Isabel's needs or Sadie's and at the same time keep myself mentally healthy?

Sorry for the long post, I just needed to get that out...

Oh my gosh I feel just terrible for you! 

What is going on?!! 

I am going to go back and start from the first post again, and try to understand the dynamics in your home, that is unless you want to unload by running it all down from the start, names, ages, personality, who you got first, etc. all of it.

This just doesn't seem right and must have an explanation to it!

Have you thought about consulting with a professional cat behaviorist?

I know we are all happy to help get you through this, but it's going on too long and it might help to know all the gory details of the home and occupants

Hang in there, I can imagine how frustrated you must be!! 

 

Edit-okay so it's Sadie who is 11 and has been the dominant, and Isabel who is 5 1/2 and non dominant.

Just so you know you are not alone, let me tell you.

I have 2 dominant girls, and it literally took years before they finally were able to co-exist and tolerate each other, but still to this very day, 10 years later mind you, Krissy, will STILL not lay on a spot where Simone had layed..it's ridiculous, but it is what it is I suppose.

But in your case, and 2 females are never easy, they are the least likely to get along as well as yours have all this time. 

I reread all posts, and while I am sure that this all came from the foreign/scary vet smells, it feels like something more has come out of it now.

As in, would Isabel by chance be attempting to take over Sadie's position for some reason?

This happens when an illness or injury shows weakness in the top cat, where there is another female who is ready and willing to jump in that spot.

Who do you see as the aggressor in these new fights? What/who starts them?

 

[anmllvr]

 
Oh my gosh I feel just terrible for you! 

What is going on?!! 

I am going to go back and start from the first post again, and try to understand the dynamics in your home, that is unless you want to unload by running it all down from the start, names, ages, personality, who you got first, etc. all of it.

This just doesn't seem right and must have an explanation to it!

Have you thought about consulting with a professional cat behaviorist?

I know we are all happy to help get you through this, but it's going on too long and it might help to know all the gory details of the home and occupants

Hang in there, I can imagine how frustrated you must be!! 

 
Oh my gosh I feel just terrible for you! 

What is going on?!! 

I am going to go back and start from the first post again, and try to understand the dynamics in your home, that is unless you want to unload by running it all down from the start, names, ages, personality, who you got first, etc. all of it.

This just doesn't seem right and must have an explanation to it!

Have you thought about consulting with a professional cat behaviorist?

I know we are all happy to help get you through this, but it's going on too long and it might help to know all the gory details of the home and occupants

Hang in there, I can imagine how frustrated you must be!! 

Thanks....I am starting to wonder if in the last true attack  (the one that ended the happy home we'd finally achieved after four weeks) if Sadie didn't hurt Isabel.   When I rub Isabel's right cheek, there is a place I can rub where she lip smacks-I posted about it on another thread, but I just thought it was an oddity until someone mentioned it might be a sore tooth.  The thought of taking her to the vet if almost more than I can process right now.  But I double checked her and it only happens when I touch one particular area, so maybe something is sore.  That might explain somethings. 

Here is a rundown of my home/dynamics.

Sadie: Currently ~11 years old, female, calico/tortoise shell color with white belly.  Sadie was approximately 1 year old when her owners were evicted and the left her.  She was fed by my then aquarium director who got tired of her peeing in his house and he gave her to the aquarium where I worked-she lived in a warehouse where we quarantined sharks and other animals (standard practice before putting them on exhibit). She was extremely needy in terms of attention and she got almost none.  A co-worker of mine agreed to foster her for the 4 months it would take for me to finish gettting enough allergy shots where I could entertain the idea of bringing her home.   While she was being fostered, one of my co-worker's cats split Sadie's left ear about 1/4 of the way down-she now has a permanent two prong left ear.  She had urinary crystals-but got those taken care of in her first year with me.  She was tested for them again in December, and doesn't have them.  When she is really excited and happy, she scoots like a dog with impacted anal glads.  It's kind of funny (vet has thoroughly checked her to be sure nothing is wrong). She came home with me when she was 2 years old.  My dad died the following month and she got me through a lot that grief.

Isabel: Currently 5.5 years old. Female, Tabby on white. Had her since she was 4 months old.  Found her in part of a feral colony I was managing through TNR.  She wasn't one of the ferals. Occasionally cats were dropped off in that colony.  Brought her in when Sadie was about 5 years old.  She has IBD and has been on every treatment under the sun. Finally got it controlled with a raw diet last November. 

Until January, Sadie and Isabel didn't have much of a relationship. They shared space, ate together (I used to free feed and they ate on the cat buffet together all the time.) and once in a blue moon slept on the bed together and 2-3 times a year would actually play with one another.  They often played with me-taking turns with each other chasing toys, etc.  But to play with each other was rare.

If Isabel wants something, she head bumps me.  If I don't respond to that in what she considers a reasonable amount of time-she scratches the carpet.  I have bumpers around the carpet where it meets the wall because she likes to scratch there and it pulls the carpet up.  If any door is closed, she scratches there too.  I live in an apartment so I don't own the carpet. 

If Sadie wants something, she meows, rubs on me, pats my face with her paw.  If that doesn't get a response, she jumps Isabel-usually just running after her and one hiss or swat.   She has always treated Isabel as her scapegoat.  If something wasn't right, it was Isabel's fault.  Thankfully, that was a rare thing.

Isabel was always persistent about making friends with Sadie.  She never gave up and never held anything against Sadie.  It was great to see that persistence paying off just 2 short month ago. 

After 2 months on raw food, both cats were more active.  They were actually playing with one another 5 nights a week or more.  Isabel has always licked and groomed Sadie.  Sadie actually initiated head bumps with Isabel after the transition to raw.  They even started sleeping on the bed and couch together several times a week. 

Six weeks ago, Sadie started vomiting at her 2nd feed of the day (She is fed 3x/day).  She'd throw up 30-40 minutes after eating.  After 4 days in a row of this I took her to the vet.  The vet ran tests, but found nothing other than high cholesterol.  She gave her an anti-nausea injection and I brought her home. 

Isabel had no idea who she was.  I'd never seen that.  I looked it up and watched all the videos by Jackson Galaxy on how to intro cats.  After 4 weeks, we had our happy home back-it wasn't quite as good as January, but it was as good as it was last August and I was happy with that.  Then 5-6 days later, I came home from work, changed clothes-I smelled disgusting-the cats followed me into the bathroom, and fed the cats.  Isabel was rubbing and licking on Sadie, who was letting her.  I put their plates down and they ate.  When they were done I picked up the plates, prepped my food and sat in the living room to watch tv.  Isabel was in her spot by the deck and cleaning herself.  Sadie walked down the hall.  I never saw her come back.  Isabel clearly did.  I heard this low moan, and eyes dilated, and I looked over and there was Sadie, doing the same.  The last time I'd heard that noise, when I brought Sadie home from the vet, Sadie ended up with a bleeding claw and a puncture wound under her eye. 

I put a big pillow between them hoping to break eye contact and be able to get Sadie to another room.  It didn't work.  I stood up and clapped as loudly as I could and then began to chase Sadie down the hall.  As soon as Sadie was facing away, Isabel tore after her.  They cornered each other at the bathroom door and hissing and swatting ensued.  I got Sadie in the bedroom and shut the door. 

I kept them separated overnight.  The next day I did one intro where I simply fed them in sight of each other and that went okay.  The second and third feeds I did the same and let them stay out a bit.  Things were tense, but okay. An occasional  hiss if one got in the others personal space but otherwise they kept a weary distance.  The next day was my day off and they did so well at the first feed, that I left them together.  They even slept on the bed for about 2 hours together, 12 inches apart.   

Later in the day, I could tell Isabel was getting tense, so I went to the living room to try to entice her to play rather than shut her or Sadie away.  She likes to chase things, so I thought that might help-let her run out some energy and add a good association to Sadie's presence. The minute we got into the living room and I got out the toy, Sadie came around the corner, and they were hissing and moaning/growing again.  Sadie ran down the hall pretty quickly and I got her shut in a bedroom before any contact was made.  Isabel tried hard to attack her under the door.

I did 1 or 2 feeds where they could have contact with each other the following day, but they just stayed at opposite ends of the hall and stared at each other.  If I let that go too long, the hackles began to raise and the growling started.  By the end of the day, looking at each other created enlarged tails. 

 

[anmllvr]

I saw your post after I finished typing their history.  It's nice to know I'm not alone in this.  It's hard to think we'd come so far that they were playing nightly with each other and sleeping together-only to have it taken away so quickly. 

I have talked to my vet, who thinks for my mental health and the cats, we might want to look at some kind of short term medications.  She is going to look into the options and get back with me so we can talk over what she finds and decide together if any are appropriate.  

She recommended a veterinary behaviorist.  I looked that person up and she wants a minimum of 2 hours for the first session, at $165 a session.  Then at least 1 more follow up of an hour at the same rate.  She also, before she sees the cats, wants each to have a battery of tests to rule out medical issues-which she estimates to cost $250 per cat.  That is all on her website, I haven't talked to her personally yet.  I'm not sure she does home visits either, her site says to bring the animals to her.  I just paid over $200 for Sadie's visit for vomiting.  And I've just bought 4 Feliway diffusers and refills.   If  it comes down to it, I will get with the behaviorist, but it's cost prohibitive.  My vet is willing to talk to her first and do what she can to minimize the cost, so that's something. 

I don't think that one is trying to usurp the position of the other.  Sadie is very protective of me, so I could see some jealousy issues.  Isabel seems to think she owns -and she does-a portion of the living room.  It's where she is most confident and while in the bedroom or hallway, she defers to Sadie, I think in there she feels like she can stand her ground. I think 80% of the time in our current state, if Isabel stayed away from me, Sadie would leave her alone, but she is protecting me or is jealous.  I'm not sure which.  The other 20% is covered by Isabel getting in Sadie's personal space or coming out of a room without Sadie realizing it-so essentially sneaking up, even if that wasn't the intent.

 

[catwoman707]

It looks to me that my idea might be right, that Isabel is now challenging Sadie's position.

This will never happen, knowing Sadie is a calico (which I actually knew already somehow!)

 

[anmllvr]

So I guess now the trick will be-how do I get Isabel to her old personality-and position?  Sigh.  Four days ago, we were there, now...not so much. 

Edit: After I went and talked to the vet, Sadie actually hissed at me when I picked her up to cuddle-about an hour after I'd changed clothes--I still had the smell on me apparently.  It stopped after that hiss-like she realized what she was doing, but it let me know that the odd smells were a big problem.  

 

[catwoman707]

 
I saw your post after I finished typing their history.  It's nice to know I'm not alone in this.  It's hard to think we'd come so far that they were playing nightly with each other and sleeping together-only to have it taken away so quickly. 

I have talked to my vet, who thinks for my mental health and the cats, we might want to look at some kind of short term medications.  She is going to look into the options and get back with me so we can talk over what she finds and decide together if any are appropriate.  

She recommended a veterinary behaviorist.  I looked that person up and she wants a minimum of 2 hours for the first session, at $165 a session.  Then at least 1 more follow up of an hour at the same rate.  She also, before she sees the cats, wants each to have a battery of tests to rule out medical issues-which she estimates to cost $250 per cat.  That is all on her website, I haven't talked to her personally yet.  I'm not sure she does home visits either, her site says to bring the animals to her.  I just paid over $200 for Sadie's visit for vomiting.  And I've just bought 4 Feliway diffusers and refills.   If  it comes down to it, I will get with the behaviorist, but it's cost prohibitive.  My vet is willing to talk to her first and do what she can to minimize the cost, so that's something. 

I don't think that one is trying to usurp the position of the other.  Sadie is very protective of me, so I could see some jealousy issues.  Isabel seems to think she owns -and she does-a portion of the living room.  It's where she is most confident and while in the bedroom or hallway, she defers to Sadie, I think in there she feels like she can stand her ground. I think 80% of the time in our current state, if Isabel stayed away from me, Sadie would leave her alone, but she is protecting me or is jealous.  I'm not sure which.  The other 20% is covered by Isabel getting in Sadie's personal space or coming out of a room without Sadie realizing it-so essentially sneaking up, even if that wasn't the intent.

I had that same thought as an option to mention to you also, a very temporary/short term calming med.

It sounds a bit overblown to spend that kind of money on the behaviorist. It may be because the person is a vet, I don't know, but it is very pricey.

In your last paragraph you started out saying you don't think that one is trying to usurp the position of the other, but describing several things within the same paragraph, those are all related to status in the home.

It looks to me that Isabel is challenging for Sadie's spot. 

 

[anmllvr]

 In your last paragraph you started out saying you don't think that one is trying to usurp the position of the other, but describing several things within the same paragraph, those are all related to status in the home.