Alnutrin question

[LTS3]

I got my Alnutrin for meat and bone the other day. Before I go ahead and make up a batch with the ground meat/bone/organ I have, I just wanted to check that there is nothing else I need to add. In my other thread, someone said that Oma's Pride and HT with bone/organ have a high bone content and someone else said that they add in boneless meat to lower the overal bone content. So do I *need* to add in some boneless meat?

Or am I ok with just the Alnutrin and ground meat/bon/organ mixed together?

Right now the cats are eating the NV raw medallions for cats in rabbit and NV Raw Bites. I think they're slowly gaining their weight back.

 

[abby2932]

It depends on what meat you are using. I buy the Whole Ground Rabbit, fur and all, Fine Ground Beef (Meat/Bone/Organ) and Fine Ground Goat (Meat/Bone/Organ) from Hare Today to mix with Alnutrin and I do not add boneless meat to those grinds.

Poultry usually has a higher bone ratio than other meats so if I was ordering whole gound chicken, duck, goose, pheasant or turkey I would probably cut it down with an appropriate amount of boneless meat and organ.

 

[abby2932]

I also wanted to mention that the scoop that comes with the Hare Today Alnutrin is not *super* accurate. I bought a tiny scale on amazon that weighs down the .01 of a gram (it was only about $10) and I measure the 4 grams of Alnutrin per pound of meat that way.

 

[LTS3]

Right now in the freezer I have Oma's Pride ground turkey necks, HT ground rabbit with bone and organs, and HT ground turkey with bone and organs. I have boneless HT ground chicken on order with the pet store and I plan to use it with the Better In The Raw premix.

The Alnutrin I got is the prepackaged one, not the scoop. Each package is for 1 pound of meat. Since the chubs I have are 2 lbs each, I'm going to use two packages of Alnutrin. I do have a scale to use if I later get the Alnutrin scoopable powder.

Another question: Would it be ok to switch between premixes, Alnutrin and Better In The Raw, depending on what ground meat I can get from the pet store at the time? And would it be ok to feed maybe every other meal NV raw?

 

[abby2932]

~Ground turkey necks (without skin) are approximately 42% bone. That is an incredibly high bone percentage. I don't know how to suggest to feed this food. You would probably have to make a mixture of 25% Oma's Turkey Neck with 65% boneless meat, 5% liver and 5% of some other organ such as kidney, spleen or pancreas. Then add an appropriate amount Alnutrin for meat/bone/organ. That would be the only way to bring that bone percentage down to an acceptable level of approximately 10%. 

~A whole rabbit (uneviscerated) is approximately 8% bone. So since the Hare Today grind comes without the fur, stomach and intestine, you can imagine the bone percentage is a bit higher than 8%, probably around 10-15% (is my very uneducated guess). You are probably fine with using this grind with the appropriate amount of Alnutrin for meat/bone/organ. I feed the Whole Ground Rabbit, Fur and All but I did buy the kind that you have once and I did not cut it down with boneless meat and my cats were fine with it.

~A whole turkey is approximately 21% bone. I wouldn't feed the  HT turkey grind without cutting it down by at least a third (2 pounds turkey grind + 1 pound boneless meat) to bring down the bone percentage. But THEN you have to add some liver and other organ to account for the boneless meat you added to cut down the bone percentage. 

You can see why I stay away from Poultry grinds! 

 Since they are so high in bone, you have to do all kinds of math to cut it down and add an appropriate amount of organ to the mix it can make feeding raw much more difficult than it should be. 

It is completely acceptable to feed a variety of homemade raw and commercial raw. My cats' diet consists of 1/3 commercial raw, 1/3 homemade ground with Alnutrin and 1/3 Prey Model Raw. And since variety is the "spice of life" it is also fine to switch between premixes (Alnutrin & BITR). You just have to make sure you're using the right premix for the type of meat you're buying:

Alnutrin for Meat/Bone/Organ = Your grind must include meat/bone/organ

Alnutrin with Calcium = Your grind must include meat and organ but NO bone

Better in the Raw = Your grind must be meat ONLY as BITR supplies calcium as well as a liver supplement 

One question....Do you add fish oil to your batch (or add it at mealtimes)? Because when making homemade ground raw, there are 2 supplements that should be included:

• Egg Yolk (which is included in the Alnutrin Premix so you're fine here)
• Fish/Salmon/Krill Oil for Omega 3's (I use a human grade Krill oil)

 

[LTS3]

This is getting to be a lot more complicated than I expected

I'm going to stick with boneless meat after I use up what I already have. Is there a cheap place to buy ground boneless meat online in a larger size than 1 lb? While the pet store does have HT, they're limited in what they can order.

I can get Bravo Boneless at a different pet store but it's only available in three meats, two of which I can only feed since venision does't agree with Leroy's tummy.

No, I wasn't adding fish oil to the raw before. The cats aren't really into fishy foods so I'm not sure if they'd like fish oil.

 

[abby2932]

I get all of my cat food from HT directly and I'm not familiar with any other online supplier that would have boneless meat. Hopefully someone else stops by to help you a bit more. I feel like I'm making things complicated for you, which I don't want! Feeding raw should be easy and fun.

You should be incorporating fish oil into the food to bring down the Omega 6 value. Since factory farmed animals nowadays are fed a high grain diet instead of lots of grass, etc they have a much higher Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio. Raw feeders bring the omega 3's back up by including fish oil to the diet.

You might want to do a search for "fish oil" on the Raw section of this forum and read about it...

Reading the ingredients of Better in the Raw, I see that it includes EFA (essential fatty acids) from fish but Alnutrin does not so those of us that use it or make our own concoction of a premix include fish oil in our batches.

I know you have gotten wrong information before on another forum and I don't want to be muddling up information too...I'm kind of a newbie myself, I've only been making raw for less than a year...

@LDG can you help me make sure I'm not giving her incorrect info? I feel like I'm not doing very well

 

[maureen brad]

LT- you can buy boneless chicken or turkey thigh chucks in 2 lbs bags from HT. I grind them up in the food processor and add organs. Saves a lot of money , the

If you like Oma's why don't you just add Alnutrin for meat and bone to that?

 The next time I order a large amount of food I am going to try Felines Pride pre-mixes.

 

[LTS3]

 
LT- you can buy boneless chicken or turkey thigh chucks in 2 lbs bags from HT. I grind them up in the food processor and add organs. Saves a lot of money , the

If you like Oma's why don't you just add Alnutrin for meat and bone to that?

 The next time I order a large amount of food I am going to try Felines Pride pre-mixes.

I don't have a food processor and wouldn't have any other use for it (not much of a cook), thus why I prefer already ground meat. But I would consider buying one if it's cheaper to buy chunks and grind it up myself.

The Oma's Pride is cheaper than the HT at the pet store. But I try to buy whatever the store has in stock at the moment. I mainly feed chicken, duck, and turkey. I guess I have to not buy ground necks anymore since it's pretty much all bone.

 

[maureen brad]

Chicken necks are fine once in awhile. From what I understand it is all a matter of balance. That is why I feed some meals boneless and some bone in. I do feed chicken necks once a weeks. 1/2 neck per cat

 I may have missed something but I thought the problem was that you realized you were feeding bone-in-grinds with a Btter-in-the raw pre-mix for boneless grinds resulting in to much calcium. If you use a pre-mix like Alnutrin for meat and bone wouldn't that solve the problem? I remember how much you like Oma's and how convenient it is for you.

 Yeah, I have no use for a food processor other than for cat food but Costco sold them very cheap this year , something like $29 ( it is sm. only a 4-cup) I bought it because I wanted to see if I had the patience to make food for the cats. I thought if I did I would buy a grinder and go from there. I realized that making 10 or so lbs a month with the processor is fine but, I will never have the patience to get a grinder and make so much food.

 

[abby2932]

Chicken necks are fine once in awhile. From what I understand it is all a matter of balance. That is why I feed some meals boneless and some bone in. I do feed chicken necks once a weeks. 1/2 neck per cat
 I may have missed something but I thought the problem was that you realized you were feeding bone-in-grinds with a Btter-in-the raw pre-mix for boneless grinds resulting in to much calcium. If you use a pre-mix like Alnutrin for meat and bone wouldn't that solve the problem? I remember how much you like Oma's and how convenient it is for you.
 Yeah, I have no use for a food processor other than for cat food but Costco sold them very cheap this year , something like $29 ( it is sm. only a 4-cup) I bought it because I wanted to see if I had the patience to make food for the cats. I thought if I did I would buy a grinder and go from there. I realized that making 10 or so lbs a month with the processor is fine but, I will never have the patience to get a grinder and make so much food.

The Oma's Pride that she's buying is 100% ground turkey necks, 100% ground duck necks, Chicken frames and ground rabbit, I think.

The rabbit is fine if she adds Alnutrin for meat/bone/organ to it but the 100% ground necks and frames are way too bone-heavy (and also have no organ included) to feed as a stand alone meal, even with Alnutrin.

Actually, I just looked on their website and the ground rabbit doesn't even specify if it has organs included. It doesn't even say that that it is a "whole ground rabbit". All it says is "Ground Rabbit and Bone". I would double check to see if you need to add organs (at the very least, liver) to these grinds to make it complete.

 

[maureen brad]

Oh no, I didn't know that about Oma's. I have no idea why they would even make that. I doubt any cat could do well on so much bone.

 HT is expensive if you buy just boneless grinds. I don't know about any other sources for a boneless  meat except Rad Cat.

 

[LTS3]

I would like to keep using Better In The Raw for at least the time being because I had ordered a new 2 lb bag right before this raw diet dilemna

Once the bag is done, I think I'll stick with the HT ground meat/bone/organs to use with Alnutrin. At least those come in a chub up to 5 lbs.

I tried RadCat before (free sample from the pet store) but neither cat would eat it.

 

[sophie1]

LTS3 don't despair!  It's not that complicated, really.

The bone percentages in the HT grinds are definitely on the high side for cats, and certainly the ground turkey necks will be way high.  Some cats can get constipated which is really the only reason to be concerned.  If you don't have this problem, then I wouldn't worry about it especially since you're feeding these grinds for only part of the diet anyway.

But if you need to, diluting the bone content is very, very simple:  feed some boneless meat either mixed into the food or for some meals.   You can get meat from the grocery or from Hare Today as chunks or boneless grinds.  Sometimes I add these to the food as I'm mixing, other times I just feed them as is (divide into single serving bags before freezing).   About 1/4 to 1/3 boneless meat will nicely counterbalance the grinds.  There is enough "slop" in the supplement recipes that you really don't need to worry about increasing to cover the added meats.

It's probably not totally necessary but I choose to balance the boneless with organ meats.  Get organ grinds from HT or buy livers and a secreting organ like kidney or spleen from the grocery and chop them up in equal portions.  It's easiest to mix these into the grinds when you are making them up into meals - 10% of the boneless meats by weight.  Freezing small amounts is easiest if you use ice cube trays.  hint:  if you don't want to use your ice cube trays, try using halves of plastic egg cartons.

So for each 4 lbs of grinds, you want to add or feed separately 1 lb boneless meats and ~1.6 oz of the organs (half liver, half other secreting organ).  Of note, feeding the boneless meats as chunks is good for dental health anyway, and my cats love it.  And it's just really nice to be able to shop for both me and my cats at the grocery.

 

[abby2932]

@sophie1  did a perfect job explaining how to cut down the HT poultry grinds with a bit of additional boneless meat and organs

@LTS3   I know you mentioned that your pet store is limited in what they can order form Hare Today but here are some grinds that you should not have to worry about diluting bone content if they will order a few of these for you:

• Ground Beef  (Meat/Bone/Tripe/Organ)
• Ground Goat  (Meat/Bone/Tripe/Organ)
• Ground Pork (Meat/Bone/Organ)
• Ground Rabbit (Meat/Bone/Organ)
• Ground Rabbit, Fur and all (Meat/Bone/Organ)
• Ground Cavies aka Guinea Pig (Meat/Bone/Organ)
• Ground Sheep (Meat/Bone/Organ)
• Ground Quail (Meat/Bone/Organ) *Even though quail is poultry, it has a perfect (approximately) 10% bone content, much less than other poultry*
• Ground Mice (Meat/Bone/Organ)
• Ground Llama (Meat/Bone/Organ)

All of the whole, ground animals above should have an acceptable amount of Meat/Bone/Organ in the grinds. All you have to do is add:

• 4 grams of Alnutrin (for Meat/Bone/Organ) to each 1lb of meat 
• 2,000mg or 3,000mg of fish oil (fish oil, salmon oil, krill oil are all acceptable forms of essential fatty acids) for each 1lb of meat
  • The reason you need to add fish oil is because Alnutrin does not include it in the premix. If you look at your BITR premix and all commercial (raw and cooked) cat food, you will see fish oil in the ingredients. Alnutrin does not include this and it is essential for balancing out the Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio

It is only the Poultry grinds (chicken, turkey, duck, pheasant) that have too much bone. You don't want to feed a "mineral heavy" diet not only because of constipation but excessively high amounts of calcium can depress function of magnesium, form oxalate stones and can cause bone density if fed as a staple diet. You don't want to feed a calcium deficient diet OR a calcium heavy diet. It should be a happy (approximately) 10% of the diet.

If you want to add some poultry in your cat food rotation you can do it with these methods:

1. Boneless, organless ground meat + Better in the Raw Premix
   • Your BITR premix includes a calcium supplement, liver supplement, egg yolk powder, taurine, vitamins B & E and essential fatty acids so no need to add anything else but this premix and the boneless, organless meat
2. Prey Model Raw Method
   • 80% boneless muscle meat (chicken or turkey thighs, breasts, hearts, gizzards)
   • 10% bone (the percentage of bone that would be in chicken or duck necks, wings, backs, ribs or small rabbit bones or quail bones)
   • 5% liver
   • 5% kidney, spleen, pancreas or other secreting organ
3. The example that @sophie1  gave you in the above post where you buy a whole chicken or turkey grind (with meat/bone/organ) and dilute it with an appropriate amount of boneless ground meat and an appropriate amount of organ
4. Splurging on a grinder and making your own cat food. You can buy chicken or turkey thighs, liver and other organs from you grocery store and grinding your own food, bones and all. You would still have to follow the 80/10/5/5 rule and add Alnutrin + fish oil to the batch.

 

[sophie1]

Thanks Abby, that was really, really helpful!!

One way to gauge how much bone/calcium is too much is to watch your cats' poop.  On the Hare Today rabbit, my cats' poop turns white so I assume that's a bit too much bone.  I just up the amount of boneless meat until their poop is back to the yellow/brown color.  Don't be too scared of overfeeding calcium occasionally though...your cats will self-regulate by excreting the excess.

The only bone percentage I've found on the HT website is the beef with tripe, listed at 5% (but remember there is additional calcium in the tripe).   Does anyone have a list of HT grinds and approximate bone %s?  I really don't think the rabbit is all that much different from the chicken/turkey.  Rabbit is about 15% bone, so some cats might need more boneless meat added than what I suggested.  But note, on the high bone content grinds the OP didn't report any problems.

 

[LTS3]

 
@sophie1  did a perfect job explaining how to cut down the HT poultry grinds with a bit of additional boneless meat and organs

@LTS3   I know you mentioned that your pet store is limited in what they can order form Hare Today but here are some grinds that you should not have to worry about diluting bone content if they will order a few of these for you:

Ahhh this is exactly what I needed, a breakdown of what is needed

I know the pet store has HT ground beef/organ/bone and ground goat/organ/bone in stock most of the time. I tried the beef once (as a treat with nothing added) and while Leroy gobbled it up (he eats most anything, edible or not), Emma wouldn't touch it. I'll give goat a try. I think I've seen the ground pork/organ/bone before. When I go pick up the boneless ground chicken I'll inquire about what other meats they can order.

What  form of fish oil do people use? Capsules or liquid? Is there a recommended brand?

 

[abby2932]

Dr Pierson (who wrote the www.catinfo.org website) says she uses this brand:

http://m.iherb.com/Nature-Made-Fish-Oil-1200-mg-300-Liquid-Softgels/40398?at=0

If you have not been on that website and read the entirety of her "Making Cat Food" section, I highly recommend it. Many of us here feed raw because we came across her website. You may have read it already! She does a thorough job of explaining not only why feeding raw is more species-appropriate but how to do it and why all the ingredients are important, etc.

I use krill oil, rather than fish oil. This brand, specifically:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003O1Y4C2/?tag=&tag=thecatsite

Fish oil only comes in 2 forms: liquid capsules and a bottle with a squirt pump. It is better to use capsules (though more annoying) because the fish oil starts to go bad quickly after it is opened and the capsules stay fresher longer.

 

[maureen brad]

I use capsules. The liquid goes rancid very quickly.

 

[LTS3]

I can get the Nature's Made brand at the supermarket here. Not sure when I'll be able to get to the supermarket, though. Kind of snowed in at the moment

snow.gif

• LTS3
• Jan 28, 2015

I have HT ground rabbit/bone/meat thawing in the fridge to mix with the Alnutrin probably tomorrow.  This batch likely won't have the fish oil added so I'll just feed one meal/day and the other meals the NV that I have.