Losing weight on raw diet?

I just noticed that Leroy, my Aby, is literally skin and bones He's normally skinny and lean but I can now feel every bone and detail of his spine and ribs. They're not protruding but are easily felt with a light hand pass over the skin. His shoulder blades are much more prominent than before. He feels a little lighter, too. I know a trip to the vet is needed and I will call the vet first thing tomorrow morning for an appointment. Last vet visit was in September. Leroy weighed 10 pounds at the time, his normal weight. Energy level is still off the charts , litter box habits are normal, appetite good.

Leroy was eating NV frozen raw (3oz /day) up to about last August when I was down to my last few bags of the old formula. I slowly switched Leroy and my other cat to ground raw meat with a pre-mix. I use Hare Today (chicken, rabbit, and turkey) and Oma's Pride (chicken frames, turkey neck, duck neck, rabbit) with the Better In The Raw pre-mix. The pre-mix recipie is for 2 lbs of raw meat which works out well since the pet store only carries 1 lb and 2 lb packages of Hare Today and Oma's Pride. Leroy eats about 3 oz every day. He won't eat anymore than that. Treats are pretty rare, maybe a few times a month, and is a piece of freeze dried meat treat. My other cat eats exactly the same raw and also gets a spoonful of canned food before bed (Weruva or NV Instinct). She is still her usual "big boned" self.

Does the raw diet look ok? Any chance that Leroy's boniess is diet-related even though my other cat is just fine?

It sounds like a good diet to me. I am no expert but I have read about raw feeding endlessly so from what you write the diet sounds good.

My Desmond has lost weight on raw. He isn't skinny but he is always, always hungry and getting to be such a pin about it that I am going crazy with him jumping around begging for food.I am like you in that I have been feeding commercial, Hare Today and I have also done some of Dr. Pierson's recipe.I use Alnutrin.

Des is due for a physical and I am going to request blood work. He is only 2and I doubt he is hyperthyroid. Maybe he is just a cat that REALLY loves his raw. I feed him 6 oz a day.

Please keep us updated on Leroy.I hope everything is okay.

my cat was slim before feeding all raw, and mow, 3 months later I have to increase the amount of food i feed her because I think she´s getting to thin. They gain muscle mass, and lose fat on raw food. You should be able to feel the ribs without much pressure, but ask the vet if he´s in a good weight or not. 

Why not increase the amount of food you give him, and be observant of what happens to his weight? 

I can't speak to the diet you're feeding, @LTS3 but, like cicoccabim, I also wonder about feeding Leroy more. I'm not sure what his caloric  intake might be but three ounces doesn't sound a lot for an energetic cat, even recognizing that cats generally eat less raw than canned foods,ounce for ounce. You said he won't eat more than about 3 ounces a day, right? Perhaps there are ways to change his eating habits a little to entice him to eat more.

Do you feed him different foods at at his various meals? Our cat Ireland -- the thinner one of our two-- gets bored very quickly and demands lots of variety: we have to give her several different foods (and/or mixes) each day or she goes on strike. Ireland's also a slow and very deliberate eater so I make sure to have some canned food (her preferences are shreds, low-calorie foods, like Weruva and Tiki) out for much of the day so she can pick. Since she's slow, we feed her her raw food in a closed room so her piglet sister won't finish her meals or intimidate her by hovering like a vulture.

Like Leroy, Ireland is ridiculously energetic. Ireland's a bit thinner than I'd like her to be, though she's lean in a muscular way (and did I mention energetic?!); the vet didn't seem concerned at all that she'd lost a little weight since her last exam. I think she's gaining it back, and I think it's largely because we've been feeding her separately, where she feels more secure. Some of that issue may be because we adopted the cats as extremely thin, underfed ten-month-old kittens who'd been in a too-many-cats household... I still wonder if some of their eating oddities are remnants of their past.

Good luck!

It's about 133 kcal for a 4oz serving size according to the Better In The Raw web site. Leroy eats about 1 oz three times a day. I can try offering more food for each meal and see if he will eat it all. Most of the time when his tummy is full, he wanders away and won't eat anymore

I make one batch of food at a time (limited freezer space) and both cats eat only that until it's time to make more. Right now it's turkey.

LTS3 said:

 
 I use Hare Today (chicken, rabbit, and turkey) and Oma's Pride (chicken frames, turkey neck, duck neck, rabbit) with the Better In The Raw pre-mix. The pre-mix recipie is for 2 lbs of raw meat which works out well since the pet store only carries 1 lb and 2 lb packages of Hare Today and Oma's Pride. Leroy eats about 3 oz every day. 

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Are the Hare Today and Oma's Pride products bone free??? The Better in the Raw pre-mix includes calcium so the 'meat' you use it with shouldn't have any bone.  Can you provide a link to the Oma's product that has an ingredient list of  'chicken frames, turkey neck, duck neck, rabbit' ? From the ingredients it sounds like it would be very high in bone.

LTS3 said:

 
It's about 133 kcal for a 4oz serving size according to the Better In The Raw web site. Leroy eats about 1 oz three times a day. I can try offering more food for each meal and see if he will eat it all. Most of the time when his tummy is full, he wanders away and won't eat anymore

I make one batch of food at a time (limited freezer space) and both cats eat only that until it's time to make more. Right now it's turkey.

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Mine all eat 4 oz a day for about 160 kcals. Aby's are usually pretty high energy. If Leroy is only getting 3 oz or 100 kcals a day I would say that is pretty low.

How much does/should Leroy weigh?

According to my calculations (taking into account that you say there is 133 kcal per 4 oz of food) Leroy is getting about 100 kcal per day. This is not enough calories for an adult cat. This would explain the weight loss.

mschauer said:

 
Are the Hare Today and Oma's Pride products bone free??? The Better in the Raw pre-mix includes calcium so the 'meat' you use it with shouldn't have any bone.  Can you provide a link to the Oma's product that has an ingredient list of  'chicken frames, turkey neck, duck neck, rabbit' ? From the ingredients it sounds like it would be very high in bone

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Sorry, those are the individual meats I buy, not a mix.

Oma's Pride meats fed:

• ground chicken frames
• ground turkey necks
• ground duck necks
• rabbit

Hare Today meats fed:

• ground chicken
• ground rabbit
• ground turkey

CatPack said:

How much does/should Leroy weigh?

According to my calculations (taking into account that you say there is 133 kcal per 4 oz of food) Leroy is getting about 100 kcal per day. This is not enough calories for an adult cat. This would explain the weight loss.

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Nutritional Analysis:  Based on “as fed” mixed food including ground chicken meat. Average daily meal size: ¼ lb. (120g)
Leroy's normal weight is 10 pounds.

133 kcal is 133000 calories, right? Math

On NV, Leroy was getting just  under 200 calories per day (65 calories per approximate 1 oz medallion at three times a day) and was fine on that. So how much of the new raw would I have to feed him? 6oz per day?

kcal = calories

Again, if the meats you are using contain bone you should not use them with the Better in the Raw pre-mix.

LTS3 said:

On NV, Leroy was getting just  under 200 calories per day (65 calories per approximate 1 oz medallion at three times a day) and was fine on that. So how much of the new raw would I have to feed him? 6oz per day?

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Yes. If the new food is 133 kcal (calories) per 4 oz then to feed 200 calories would require 6 oz.

LTS3 said:

Sorry, those are the individual meats I buy, not a mix.

Oma's Pride meats fed:

• ground chicken frames
• ground turkey necks
• ground duck necks
• rabbit

Hare Today meats fed:

• ground chicken
• ground rabbit
• ground turkey

Nutritional Analysis:  Based on “as fed” mixed food including ground chicken meat. Average daily meal size: ¼ lb. (120g)

Energy/Kcal	133
Protein	17.29%
Carbohydrates	1.2%
Fat	6.0%
Ash	3.19%
Calcium	231mg
Phosphorous	224mg
Magnesium	74mg
Sodium	144mg
Potassium	201mg

Leroy's normal weight is 10 pounds.
133 kcal is 133000 calories, right? Math :doh3:

On NV, Leroy was getting just  under 200 calories per day (65 calories per approximate 1 oz medallion at three times a day) and was fine on that. So how much of the new raw would I have to feed him? 6oz per day?

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Are these the products?

Ground Duck Necks: http://omaspride.com/ground-duck-necks-2-lb/

Ground Turkey Necks: http://omaspride.com/ground-turkey-necks-2-lb/

Ground chicken frames: Can't find the product, I just see chicken backs. But "frames" means bones.

I can't find the rabbit either.

As to the Hare Today ground foods, unless this is the chicken: (Boneless ground chicken breast) https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_32&products_id=221

It has bone in it: https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_32&products_id=116 "Fine ground chicken, this is the entire dressed bird including skin and the offal [heart, gizzards, liver] USDA inspected, all natural."

Better-in-the-raw is meant to be used with only meat - nothing else. If it has bone or organ in it, Better-in-the-raw is not an appropriate supplement, and the kitties are getting far, far too much calcium.

In fact, the Oma's Pride ground necks, backs, frames will all have too much bone as-is, and need to have plain meat and organ added to them.

Chickens are about 32% bone ( http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263570/composition-of-proteins-bone-skin-fat ). When feeding prey model raw, the target content of bone is usually 6% - 8% in cats, as the guideline of 10% often makes cats constipated. A mouse or rat is about 5% bone, and that is the model we're trying to re-create.

So even the Hare-Today whole ground (dressed) animals will have too much bone, and certainly need no calcium added to them. Unless, of course, you're buying the boneless meats. Your post doesn't make it clear, as Hare Today does have boneless ground chicken, turkey and rabbit. But Oma's Pride does not appear to.

@LTS3  If the food you are making is very high in bone it could explain why Leroy won't eat more than 3 oz of it. Ground bone gives food a slightly gritty texture that some cats don't care for. A food very high in bone, which is what you seem to be making, will of course be extra gritty. 

One way I tell if Ritz is getting too much bone or too little fat is the consistency of her poop: if very hard, then probably she is eating too much bone; if soft (rare in Ritz case), then either she just had a meal of fatty lamb or I need to feed her more bone.

Ritz said:

One way I tell if Ritz is getting too much bone or too little fat is the consistency of her poop: if very hard, then probably she is eating too much bone; if soft (rare in Ritz case), then either she just had a meal of fatty lamb or I need to feed her more bone.

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It's a common misconception that stool consistency can be used to determine whether a diet has too much or too little bone. Large quantities of bone will certainly cause stool to be hard but there can be no bone (or calcium) whatsoever in the diet and the stool can appear to be perfectly fine.  

Thanks for the correction mschauer . In Ritz' case alone perhaps, very hard stool seems to be related to not enough fat in her diet (she needs to lose weight but has a big appetite) or (I thought) too much bone. Ritz gets constipated on any more than 6 or 7% bone.
I *finally* made an appointment with a holistic vet who can hopefully help me to fine tune Ritz' diet, including why her stools are sometimes tiny and hard, appetite large, weight too much, and why she still throws up two to three times a week (acid build up I think). I need to rule out anything serious like IBD.

Ritz said:

Thanks for the correction@mschauer . In Ritz' case alone perhaps, very hard stool seems to be related to not enough fat in her diet (she needs to lose weight but has a big appetite) or (I thought) too much bone. Ritz gets constipated on any more than 6 or 7% bone.
 

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Well that's the thing: hard stool can be caused by things other than too much bone. So we can't say that the stool being too hard or too soft is because of the amount of bone in the diet.

 I *finally* made an appointment with a holistic vet who can hopefully help me to fine tune Ritz' diet, including why her stools are sometimes tiny and hard, appetite large, weight too much, and why she still throws up two to three times a week (acid build up I think). I need to rule out anything serious like IBD.

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Your work with a holistic vet would make a great thread! (hint, hint  )

Hint taken The appointment is February 4th at 9 a.m., information sheet said to allow at least an hour for the initial consulation/appointment, which is a good sign.

I should point out that when I heard that NV was changing their raw formula to dogs only, I immediately began looking for other raw foods to feed. I've tried Primal Pet and Rad Cat before but neither cat would eat those brands. Freeze dried raw and NV Raw Bites weren't an option beause a bag would last only a few days. I knew about pre-mixes and looked more into that. I posted a tentative raw diet plan, including brands and varieties of meats, on a cat board and was assured by several experienced members that the diet would be fine for the cats. I doubled check after I started the new raw diet and was again reassured that everything is ok. And now it looks like I was given incorrect information??

Here is what I buy:

http://omaspride.com/ground-rabbit-bone-1-lb/

http://omaspride.com/ground-duck-necks-2-lb/

http://omaspride.com/ground-turkey-necks-2-lb/

http://www.rawdietforpets.com/omas-pride-chicken-frames/ (2 lb size. Looks like Oma's Pride doesn't sell it anymore? I can still get it at the pet store)

https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_32&products_id=116

https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_35&products_id=230

https://www.hare-today.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_36&products_id=122

I did try Bravo once, the boneless turkey chub, but the cats didn't seem to care much for it. Plus the only pet store that sells it is kind of a pain to get to and previous Bravo recalls has me reluctant to use the brand.

Would Alnutrin for meat and bone be a better pre-mix to use with the meats I currently have? I'll check with the pet store to see if they can get the boneless Hare Today.

So what I do in the meantime? Keep feeding what I currently have made? Add in canned food as well? Feed only canned food? I have a half a bag of Stella and Chewy's freeze dried. I just gave some to the cats and both gobbled it up and fought over, which is normal for them but maybe this time they were also hungry? I can't get to the pet store until the weekend.

Do I need to worry about fatty liver if Leroy isn't getting enough calories?

I feel like such an awful cat mom now  

LTS3 said:

 
So what I do in the meantime? Keep feeding what I currently have made? Add in canned food as well? Feed only canned food? I have a half a bag of Stella and Chewy's freeze dried. I just gave some to the cats and both gobbled it up and fought over, which is normal for them but maybe this time they were also hungry?

Do I need to worry about fatty liver if Leroy isn't getting enough calories?

I feel like such an awful cat mom now

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I'm not sure about the dietary (meaning balance) aspects of continuing to use the food you already have but I'd probably try mixing small amounts of it with other foods. Our cats are often very forgiving of bowls where I mix various canned and raw foods they've already rejected. Sometimes all I have to do is add a few nuggets of Stella & Chewy's to food to get them to eat. It sounds like the big thing right now is just to start getting more calories into Leroy so maybe he'd like some novel combinations?

And don't feel like an awful cat mom! It's not easy to feed cats, particularly picky cats!

Yes, if Better-in-the raw contains the calcium yu shouldn't use it with meat that has bone. I use Alnutrin with egg shell calcium when I am making foods that do not have bone and I use Alnutrin for meat and bone when making foods that already have ground bone. I think this may be the problem.

 I had never heard of better-in-raw so I didn't catch that. Hope that is your answer and Leroy feels better soon.

Maureen Bradley said:

 
Yes, if Better-in-the raw contains the calcium yu shouldn't use it with meat that has bone. I use Alnutrin with egg shell calcium when I am making foods that do not have bone and I use Alnutrin for meat and bone when making foods that already have ground bone. I think this may be the problem.

 I had never heard of better-in-raw so I didn't catch that. Hope that is your answer and Leroy feels better soon.

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I'll order some Alnutrin for meat and bone right away. I'll start wth the pre-packaged one first If the cats are ok with Alnutrin, I'll order the regular powdered.

Just fed Leroy half a can of NV soup I'll feed the other half before bed.

LisaHE said:

 
I'm not sure about the dietary (meaning balance) aspects of continuing to use the food you already have but I'd probably try mixing small amounts of it with other foods. Our cats are often very forgiving of bowls where I mix various canned and raw foods they've already rejected. Sometimes all I have to do is add a few nuggets of Stella & Chewy's to food to get them to eat. It sounds like the big thing right now is just to start getting more calories into Leroy so maybe he'd like some novel combinations?

And don't feel like an awful cat mom!

It's not easy to feed cats, particularly picky cats!

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I'd hate to waste the raw food I have already made up in the freezer Guess I'll mix small amounts into some canned food until the Alnutrin arrives.

Edit: Arrggh! Just saw the link to the free sample of Alnutrin Do you think I can still get a free sample even though I placed an order?