Composition of Proteins (Bone, Skin, Fat)

mschauer

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Anyone feeding whole, bone in, meat as part of their raw diet and is attempting to follow the 80-10-5-5 guidelines has a need to know how much bone is in what they feed.

Fortunately the USDA Nutrient database tells us, on average, how much bone there is in some of the more common things we feed. For convenience I've pulled out those values:

    

If anyone has information not included in the table please feel free to post it!
 

ritz

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Thanks!  Any such data for rabbit?  Ritz loves it, though I buy it mainly for the bone (freeze what I don't use).

(I won't ask about a chicken head!
 )
 
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mschauer

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The USDA database doesn't have bone information for rabbit. From what I've read elsewhere the meat to bone ratio of rabbit varies a lot depending on the species. But ... 


And, no, there isn't an entry for chicken heads either! 
 
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mschauer

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r0n1n

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I've seen some fat rabbits that would probably get it down to 5%.  Maybe different species/breeds.... it's just really hard to generalize?

This points back to the central problem we have of trying to create the perfect food from imperfect parts with imperfect information.  That's one reason I feed mice.  At least one meal isn't guesswork!

For instance, why do we think 80-10-10 is correct?  From what I can tell those 80-10-10 ratios came out of the dog BARF movement but prototypical dog prey includes large ruminants.  And dogs (and even lions) won't always eat the large weight bearing leg bones which actually reduces the effective bone ratios of those animals.

On the other hand there's an interesting thread from a few years (involving you!) which got me thinking. At least two people testified that 80-10-10 doesn't work with chickens - their bones seem to have too little calcium to form stools at those ratios.

What's the right solution more bone or less?  Maybe denser mammalian bones need more dilution from the canonical 80-10-10 and avian bones less?
 
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mschauer

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I've seen some fat rabbits that would probably get it down to 5%.  Maybe different species/breeds.... it's just really hard to generalize?
Like I said:

The USDA database doesn't have bone information for rabbit. From what I've read elsewhere the meat to bone ratio of rabbit varies a lot depending on the species. But ... 
This points back to the central problem we have of trying to create the perfect food from imperfect parts with imperfect information.  That's one reason I feed mice.  At least one meal isn't guesswork!
And that's why I stopped using bone.
On the other hand there's an interesting thread from a few years (involving you!) which got me thinking. At least two people testified that 80-10-10 doesn't work with chickens - their bones seem to have too little calcium to form stools at those ratios.
I don't know what I said then but today I would say that the amount of calcium plays no part in loose stools. You can feed a cat a food that contains no calcium at all and in the absence of any health problem the cat will have perfect stools.
What's the right solution more bone or less?  Maybe denser mammalian bones need more dilution from the canonical 80-10-10 and avian bones less?
 

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To complicate the bone issue (hey, why NOT?) birds have two types of bones and are thus different from mammals:

Pneumatic bones: composed of more air pockets to lighten the load, most of these bones are in the spine, wings etc...making the bird lighter for flight.  These bones are considered an extension of the bird's respiratory system.

Medullary bones: weight bearing (think leg bones) and an important source of calcium for the female egg laying chicken - the marrow of these bones is constantly being mined for calcium to make eggshells; 47% of a chicken's body calcium can be diverted to egg production - that's nearly half!  This calcium transport function of the bone is unique to birds. I wonder if this constant fluctuation in calcium in chicken bones is what makes accurate info so difficult.  I was told by some 4H chicken folks that most of the chicken we buy are female birds.

http://afspoultry.ca.uky.edu/files/pubs/Anatomy_Skeletal.pdf

I did have an email exchange with the head of Washington State University's Avian Health Research Station.  He gave me the titles of some poultry science journals that may have more credible chicken bone calcium information.  I have yet to go out there to see if I can access their journals as a non-WSU student.
 
 

beesto

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I'm worried now about bone use after reading this thread.  I had thought that chicken wings (tips and middle part) and necks were good and Cornish game hen.  Would you agree?
 
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mschauer

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I'm worried now about bone use after reading this thread.  I had thought that chicken wings (tips and middle part) and necks were good and Cornish game hen.  Would you agree?
Good in what regard? Good as calcium sources, sure. Well chicken wing tips I would think are more cartilage than bone and so I would guess don't have as much calcium.
 

beesto

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Good in terms of calcium (and whatever else they need from bone?????)- but I mean in terms of the percentage of bone I need to feed them.  I understand now it should be less than 10%- so maybe 7%?  
 

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Yes, think mouse. Chicken wings are a good source of bone for a cat, as are chicken rib bones and cornish hen breast with the rib bones, legs and neck. If there are any ethnic markets near you, rabbit legs and ribs are appropriate. So are quail, dove, partridge - any small bird or animal bones.
 
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beesto

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I just found The Ranch 99 Market- a large Asian market chain around here that I knew by name but did not know it was as Asian market.  They had a lot of meat variety.  Yea!  i think I made a chicken liver mistake.  My kitten ate both his portion and my other cats and I think it was more than I should have given anyway- it was 1 oz altogether and then he also ate some chicken wing.  
 

anne with cats

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Oh I don't think you did too much damage. I bet those cats were quite happy, especially kitten, It brought out his wild carnivore!  I am lucky to have Asian markets , and I always get not only livers, but the chicken hearts which have the taurine that is so important.(gizzards not too well accepted) Actually, I think the plant that processes the innards is located close to where you live. The thing about liver that bothers me when feeding raw, is that it probably isn't very organic, and because that part of an animals system is the filter, I always wonder what kind of antibiotics or toxins are built up. Last night my Kira got the goodies from the whole chicken I was roasting. The whole liver, the heart and the neck. She actually came into sleep on my bed, which is always a surprise due to her feral tendencies!
 
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beesto

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Anne with Cats-  Yes, you're right- it didn't seem to be a problem.  You make a good point about livers.  Where to get organic liver?

So did you just feed the whole heart, the whole liver and the whole neck?  Do they eat the neck bones?  I need to start learning how to cook for my family now! I've never roasted a chicken.  My husband cooks but it's the very basics.  I did actually think that this might inspire more of a passion to now feed my whole family healthy, not just my cats. 
 

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The livers are probably best from Whole foods as they have a policy of no hormones, antibiotics, etc. for their meat. The chicken hearts are pretty small, so I usually give them as whole. Sometimes the livers are a little large, and I remove the membrane stringy stuff. The neck bones, I usually cut into about 3 or 4 sections, as the cats seem to like them a little smaller, and I normally just have the 1 neck, and 4 kitties! I remove the shin, it just seems too thick, and would probably come off when cutting. I usually have to use my cleaver ( inexpensive at the Asian stores) on the necks, and just whack away!  I have/had good intentions of doing the raw food thing, even bought the grinder! (which is still in the box) and then read an article called No More Grinders. I know that the cats need the calcium from the bones, but part of the raw feeding is for the cats to gnaw on the bones to help remove the tarter. So, needless to say, I give them raw goodies, canned food, and NO dry! 
 
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mschauer

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I have/had good intentions of doing the raw food thing, even bought the grinder! (which is still in the box) and then read an article called No More Grinders. I know that the cats need the calcium from the bones, but part of the raw feeding is for the cats to gnaw on the bones to help remove the tarter. So, needless to say, I give them raw goodies, canned food, and NO dry! 
If you feed canned food I don't understand why an article that I presume opposes feeding a ground raw diet would stop you from making your own ground raw food. The food in the cans you are feeding is ground. There are raw feeders who are, shall we say, passionate about promoting their method of raw feeding as being the best. Unfortunately, and I don't know if this is true about the article you read since I haven't read it, they can be rather obnoxious in how they portray other methods.  Don't be put off by what one person says. You can still feed bone-in parts for dental health along with a ground raw diet. 
 

anne with cats

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Oh it's not that! When I was all gung ho to do raw, my old cat was diagnosed with CFR, so the phosphorus thing got me all wound up, and I delayed starting the raw food making. So, now that he has passed {he was 20 years old!) I am now reconsidering trying to make raw for my remaining young cats. Problem #1- I don't know where my previous roommate put the darn grinder! So, I will most likely procrastinate a little while longer. I have been so frustrated with buying canned food, can never find one that doesn't have some unacceptable ingredient etc.        I have been a great admirer of Lisa P. and Anne Jablowski  (who really should get the credit)  I have watched every video of people making food etc.  I would really be interested in some of your recipes, MSCHAUER, as I have been quite impressed with your knowledge.  The No More Grinders article did not dissuade me, I just found it interesting - it comes up on line as titled, just like Rice Isn't Nice.  Oh, by the way I do buy the RAD CATS raw, but at $12.99 for 24 oz.- that gets too expensive per day for the 4 cats!  I know raw homemade is much cheaper!
 
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