6 Things I Learned from Our Ringworm Plague (book length....)

[ginger2]

Baileytc, Thank you sooooo much for the links to the studies!! I already read them all, so happy to know that there are commercial stuff that actually kills the microsporum canis spores!! I have seen in my local supermarket a few of the desinfectants that they used for this studies, making a trip to the store today to buy some of this stuff!! God bless dr. Karen Moriello for everything she does!! Hope everybody is doing well, hugs to everybody!!

 

[baileytc]

You're welcome! I'm a former science journalist, so I like to follow the science. I'm frustrated that the full text of most of these papers isn't available online, but you can get the basics from the abstracts.

 
It sounds, to me, like Dr. Moriello's new research confirms what she's been saying all along — that the goal of cleaning is a not a sterile, "germ-free" environment but one that is free of dust and dirt in general, which also means that spores aren't lingering and concentrating in dark corners, either. So, going forward, maybe our "ringworm cleaning" should be even less about scrubbing and bleaching and more about basic laundering, dusting and wiping down, as well as using a filtration vacuum cleaner for walls, hard floors, and perhaps upholstery. Do you agree? I still need to read all of your sources but that's my impression from your post.

What I get from Moriello's research and her most recent statements about decontamination is that the primary purpose of cleaning is to remove spores that can cause a cat under treatment to falsely culture positive when it's actually negative. When the vet takes a sample for a toothbrush culture, she brushes the cat over its entire body, and if the cat has been in a contaminated environment, the culture will grow from spores on its coat, not because it has an active infection. So the vet will advise the owner to continue to isolate the cat and continue topical and oral treatment even though the cat is actually cured. She's asserting that unless the cat is immuno-compromised--as kittens, elderly, and sick cats are--it will not become re-infected via the environment, only from contact with another infected cat. The same likely applies to people.

So if you don't have immuno-compromised cats or people in your household (and that includes children, seniors, and anyone who is ill or has an immune-involved condition), then you're cleaning not to prevent anyone or any cat from getting ringworm but instead to prevent the infected cat from culturing positive when it's actually cured. If you're not culturing your cat to tell when it's cured, then--if you believe her research and her interpretation of it--you don't actually need to clean (at least not to the extent that most here are) to prevent a ringworm infection/re-infection.

If you ARE culturing, then you need to follow the cleaning protocol as best you can. I'm sure most people can't follow all of it (who has time to vacuum twice a day?). The primary goal should be mechanical removal of the spores via Swiffering, scrubbing, wiping, etc., which she recommends daily (again, you do what you can). Then twice a week you follow up with a disinfectant after cleaning surfaces (remember the 10-minute wet contact time, which means you may have to re-spray after about 5 minutes). She clarifies in the August's Consultations chapter that anything that can be washed in detergent or dry-cleaned can be decontaminated: clothes, towels, bowls, litter boxes, carriers, etc. She also says that despite the depressing findings about vacuuming not reducing the spores in carpets, she recommends vacuuming to remove the hair, which helps to protect the spores from any carpet-cleaning efforts you may decide to undertake. 

You can look through the chapter on Google Books: https://books.google.com/books?id=m...HYoLCQsQ6AEIOTAF#v=onepage&q=moriello&f=false

Another good tidbit: She found that cats that are cured (or were never infected) that have environmental contaminants on their coats and are thus culture positive will become culture-negative after being in a clean environment for 72 hours. The cat will groom all of the spores from its fur over the 72-hour period.

 

[blacksakura6]

Well I just went to give Graysan his fluconazole and he clawed me up!  He has been taking it fine all week but today he spit it out.  I know it disintegrates quickly so I grabbed it off of the chair and tried to put it back in his mouth.  He growled and freaked out.  Caught his nail on my thumb, ripped open my knuckle (I bled well) and my reaction was to grab his scruff.  (Maybe not the right thing to do)   While his mouth was open I tried to pop the pill in and total cat helicopter scratching up my wrist.  *sigh*  Needless to say I asked my husband to pick up some pill pockets on the way home because that is the only way I will be able to give him these meds for 6-8 weeks...   I should have just let him go when he spit it out and tried later but I was trying not to waste a pill...   

We are supposed to get the lime sulfur in this weekend and I cannot imagine trying to dip him!!!  If we can not dip him does anyone have suggestions of what we can do?  I read some people say to use a sprayer with them collared and in a basin.  Others have said try to wash him down with a washcloth and soak him as best as you can.  Any other suggestions?

Also, can the pills and topical treatment (like foot creams) alone be enough to eradicate it from his system???   He does not seem to mind us putting Lamisil or Miconazole on his spots.  I think he sees it as petting him....  

*Was happy but now a bit frustrated*  

 

[longhairedmom]

So sorry to hear that!  

Make sure to go get the long gloves you can wear when doing dishes that go up to your elbows.  Then you have something to protect your hands and lower part of your arms for when it is dipping time.   You can also wear these when it is time to give medicines if you think he will tear you up again if you give him his meds.  Plus these are good to have for cleaning after this saga is done.  

If you can put him in a laundry sink that helps since it is harder for him to jump out of.  If you have a pan that can sit in the sink, then I was told to put that in there and then you can pour the dip over him slowly and whatever is collected in the pan with help cover his paws, tail and part of his belly.   Just pour slowly and have one person hold him while the other pours.   You definitely want to have a "helper" there for the first couple dips.  I have been bathing the 3 cats for weeks now and 2 of them are now at the point that they just lay down in the sink and let me do my thing.  The first week was utter HELL but it is so much better 4 weeks later.  

Hang in there!!  

Oh and wash all those scratches really well, put some Neosporin ointment on them and keep them covered loosely with a long shirt if possible.  If your kitty has ringworm in his claws, he can spread it to you in your cuts.   All of my daughter and my lesions were at places that we were accidentally scratched by our foster kitten.   I cover all my scratches on my hands with bandaids for the first night at least to let them heal so they don't turn into ringworm lesions.      

 

[DreamerRose]

To dip the cat, put him in a pillow case with his head poking out. Then submerge the whole package in the bath. You'll have to sponge his head with a washcloth, but at least you won't get scratched.

 

[ginger2]

Soooo sorry to hear about Graysan, and your hands!! Longhairedmom is giving you great advice, me and my youngest daughter got ringworm excactly how she got hers, by scratches.. I live in Guatemala and we do not have the lime sulfur dips, I don't know if I can get on Amazon and delivered to my country, most sellers don't ship over here, and it gets really expensive, on top of that I don't have a vacumm cleaner!! but I have to get one ASAP, I have two new spots and my daughter has one.. Iam freaking out... After three weeks on treatmeant, I don't think this is good.... Almost sure is because I am not doing enough cleaning, to tell you the truth I am not tired, I am exhausted!! i clean 7 days a week, moping and then sweffering and then wiping everything I can... Not good enough, this spores are ruthless!! I have been washing and drying clothes and the bed covers everyday, the energy bill is going to be very expensive!! The only good news is that my kittens do not have new spots, and the old ones are growing hair!! Hoping every body gets well soon!!

 

[ginger2]

Great advice dreamerRose!! Never thought of that!!

 

[jcat]

We had 5 cats/kittens with ringworm at the shelter recently and used large syringes to really wet them down rather than actually submerge them. One person held them on a large towel on a table while the other squirted and massaged. Ditto when we had some guinea pigs with it last summer. If you don't have large syringes, you could use a turkey baster. Make sure you wear gloves when working with the dip.

Ringworm is an awful pain, but you can get rid of it. Surprisingly enough, nobody working at the shelter got ringworm from the cats or kittens, although we all cuddled them before they were diagnosed. We handled them afterwards, too, but only when wearing gloves and disposable smocks.

 

[bunnelina]

Hi BlackSakura6,

You poor thing! I have a few thoughts to add to the good advice here.

1. Remember, not just any vacuum cleaner will help. It needs to have a HEPA or other high-quality filtration system or the tiny spores will go into the machine and blow right back out in the exhaust.

2. I had good results giving a cat chemo pills by coating them with sticky cheese (Laughing Cow) and then wrapping that in a bit of turkey lunchmeat. (I called it the Chemo Canapé.) The turkey allowed me to get it into her mouth without the cheese sticking to me, but the cheese kept her from being able to spit it out.

3.  Oral medication is important because it clears ringworm internally and systemically. I could be wrong, but I don't think spot treatments do very much at all. The whole cat can be a ringworm "dust mop," with spores that will affect culturing and possibly be contagious.

4. I love the pillowcase technique. Just keep in mind that you need to soak the cat to the skin so plan to do a lot of massaging. (I did something similar when I was a kid and my parents left me to bathe our rather vicious cat after a run-in with a skunk. I smeared him with tomato soup and wrapped him in a sheet to rinse him in the shower.) With the lime-sulfur dip, there's no rinsing; just let the cat dry. I wonder if you could get the cat into the pillowcase and then dunk him into the dip. BTW, it smells horrible, so be prepared. Another technique I've read about is to use a small wire cage or crate and spray through that, outdoors.

We wear coats when we have to deal with our more panicky cats. Wendelina was the feral rescue kitten who brought us ringworm. Six years later she has never deliberately tried to hurt us in any way,  but she will struggle hard if we need to pill her or clip claws. We were never able to tame her as a kitten because we felt it was too risky to handle her enough to get her used to it. 

She is a very strange, sweet cat now. She will demand attention from my husband if he's sitting in a particular chair or in bed before I come in at night (she's decided I'm Evil Mommy and usually flees from me).  He can stroke her belly, legs and face and she'll lay there purring with her feet in the air. But if he even talks to her anywhere else in the house, she acts terrified and dashes away. I am only allowed to rotate her food dish under her chin so she can get every morsel. Sigh. She's a calico.

 

[blacksakura6]

Thank you all for the advice!  I immediately doused all of the cuts with 91 percent alcohol, dapped them dry, then added colloidal silver to all of the cuts and put band-aids on all of them.  I washed my hands thoroughly, sprayed Banixx on them (something used on farms for wounds and ringworm), and once they dried I rubbed miconazole onto the small scrapes that I could not cover .  I will put on the cream twice a day until they heal.  Hopefully, it will be enough to prevent ringworm from attaching but if it does I will deal with it then.  I had it as a child (caught if from someone at school) and all the doctor gave us was a cream.   I healed up quickly and was fine.

My Vet actually said that she is very surprised that my husband and I have not had any signs of ringworm because Graysan has been in our house since October.  He had scabs on him but his initial doctor said he thought it was flea dermatitis.  He did not show signs of lesions until the first week of December.  And even then the doctor said it did not look like ringworm.  It wasn't until another Vet at the same hospital saw the pics I sent on December 31st and said,"Get him in here immediately!"   Three weeks later culture positive.  So far we have been lucky but my luck may have run out today... LOL  We will have to wait and see....

And we were so sure that it was not ringworm that we really did not take precautions except covering the couch and steaming everything.  I continued with my basic cleaning....  It just feels like we are living with a fungal time bomb and always waiting for it to go off!  

I love the ideas!   Thank you Longhairedmom!  I only have gloves that go up to the middle of my forearm.  I will have to look for longer gloves.  We don't have a laundry sink but my husband suggested a large basin in placed in the tub instead of the "Homer Bucket" that we planned to use.  We may use the bucket to dip Yong Gi then gently pour it the dip over Graysan if he cooperates...  

And thank you DreamerRose!  I love the idea of the pillow case!  My friend even suggested a mesh laundry bag as well.  We have a fabric muzzle that prevents him from biting us and I can always dap the Lime Sulfur on afterwards when we cone him.   We may have to go with this method to at least get some dip on him! 

And thank you for the support Ginger2!  I really need it!  I have dealt with sick cats before but all of them let me do what I could to help them.  This is a new experience.....

I have adopted street cats before (both angels now) and I must have been lucky because they trusted me so much.  I truly believe Graysan must have been abused in his former home and is still getting used to us.  I was just caught of guard because he has let me pill him this entire week and I have no idea what set him off.  I should have just let him go so I am also at fault.  Going to use pill pockets with him from now on....

Learning lessons of life.... 

 

 

 

[DreamerRose]

BTW, ringworm fungus is related to the same fungus that causes athlete's foot and jock itch. So you can get one of the creams for athlete's foot and use it on the ringworm you got from the cats. Some of the labels on these creams even say it can be used for ringworm. Don't use it on your cats, though; it's only for humans.

 

[blacksakura6]

 
BTW, ringworm fungus is related to the same fungus that causes athlete's foot and jock itch. So you can get one of the creams for athlete's foot and use it on the ringworm you got from the cats. Some of the labels on these creams even say it can be used for ringworm. Don't use it on your cats, though; it's only for humans.

I just used the miconazole that the Vet gave us for Graysan.  It is the same tube that we can pick up at the drug store for ourselves.  And I know some people said that their Vets will give them Lamisil cream for their cats.  My husband uses that for his athlete's foot.  So I would assume they are the ones that are 'safe' for use on cats.  Someone more knowledgeable about this than me can chime in if I am wrong....

 

[DreamerRose]

If your vet recommended it, then it must be okay for cats. I didn't know that. Those creams are the ones I was talking about.

 

[blacksakura6]

 
If your vet recommended it, then it must be okay for cats. I didn't know that. Those creams are the ones I was talking about.

I looked up Lamisil and most Vets online say that it is too strong for cats but fine for humans.  Miconazole is fine to use however on cats.....  I am learning a little more every day!  

 

[longhairedmom]

Ginger2, remember that it takes 1-2 weeks for a lesion to show up so you may just be getting them now since you had contact with the spores but it takes a little while for them to show up.  My daughter had a few lesions show up after the first ones appeared and so we just restarted our completion date to when the new ones appeared.  The doctor said to use the cream for 2 weeks AFTER the lesions were skin colored.  So the cream may say it only takes 2 weeks but it may actually take 4-6 weeks of treatment for you humans.  My daughter's definitely healed faster then mine!!  So it may just be the timing and you may be doing a good job of cleaning already.  Plus the best way to heal is to get rest so make sure you are not wearing yourself so thin that you are not healing due to not getting enough rest.  

 

[ginger2]

Thank you so much for pointing that out longhairedmom, it did cross my mind that it takes a while for the infection to appear. You are absolutely right about our treatment, I learned it the hard way, the first lesions that my youngest daughter had were, one in her arm, two on her face and one on the eyelid, after 2-3 weeks on topical treatment, we went to the doc. for a follow up, she said to stop the treatment since the lesion were "apparently" gone, but just last week, the one in the eyelid reappeared!! My vet said it was because the lesions seem to be gone, but the fungus is still there, so I am putting the cream again since last week. I guess I will be buying more cream!! I have been stressing a lot since November, I have been having migraines, came down with a terrible cold, and iam having a terrible time with my dandruff (so embarrassing), so thank you for reminding me to take it easy, thank you for the support, you are a sweetheart!!

 

[longhairedmom]

On that note, use a dandruff shampoo like Head and Shoulders or Selson Blue.  I was also told to use that for both my daughter and myself as a shampoo but ALSO as a body wash.  It seems to help heal and also head off any new lesions since it works as a Antifungal.   I was told by multiple people/doctors to use an additional 2 weeks to be sure that all fungal spores are gone.  I figured what will it hurt to use it a few more weeks for peace of mind.  And yes, I had to get another tube of the stuff prescribed to my daughter since her lesions definitely took more then the 2 weeks to disappear and it was a smaller tube.  I can still see the outline of them on her and it has been since 12/30.  So she will continue to use it for 2 weeks one they are invisible to my naked eye.  So it may be March by the time we are really done with this but from what I read, 2 months is not that long to deal with this invisible monster!  

 

[blacksakura6]

 
Hi BlackSakura6,

You poor thing! I have a few thoughts to add to the good advice here.

{Edit}

I am so sorry that I did not get to respond to you directly until now!  Definitely following your all of your advice.  We have a vacuum that has a HEPA filter.  Just changed the filter not to long ago so hopefully it is working well.  Ours is also a bagless.  I empty it immediately after use and tie in in a plastic bag then dispose of it outdoors in the large bin.  Then I take the canister and all of the filters that are washable (one of the features I love about my vacuum) and wash them in hot soapy water then set them in the sun to dry.

Pill pockets are now being used...  Graysan loves them.  Rather than struggling with him I should have just waited to get a bag rather than fighting with him...  His Vet said to "do our best" and if we can not do a full 'dip' on him just try to e-collar him and sponge what we can on him then use a damp cloth to get on his forehead, neck and ears.  But some is better than none...  We will see how this pans out today.

We are definitely going to wear some old jackets while bathing him!! And we will use his cloth muzzle.  I also like pillow case idea!  That would give him something to grab while my husband holds him If I have to reach down inside briefly to get some on his back.   And we plan to use a large tote down in the tub to put him in while doing it.  Neither of us are looking forward to it.  Our Vet said that she would like us to get at least 2-3 dips on him before she sees us back in three weeks.  Then we can decide if he needs more but she is hoping that may be enough.  Do you remember how many dips you had to do???

So far Yong Gi's lesion is healing up and has hair growing in it.  Nothing else new with him but we are obviously going to dip him at 2-3 times as well.  We are hoping he will be easier.  He has been bathed before but it has been a few months since he has had a water bath.  We started doing dry baths because it is Winter.  

Bless you for being so wonderful to Wendelina!  Ferals are not easy to deal with!   We had a calico named Xindi that was obviously a stray.    Sweetest cat ever.  Would lick me awake in the morning, cuddle between my husband and I every night, just wanted to be held and kissed.  She started wheezing, we took her to the Vet and they said it was lung damage from her having chronic upper respiratory infections while she was homeless.  She only lived 3 years with us.  We went to visit my mother for 3 hours and when we returned she did not greet us at the door.  We called her over and over while tinkling her food dish but no response.  When we went upstairs she had crawled under the bed and passed away.  My husband especially was devastated by her passing.  He loved her so much as did I.  We never knew quite what happened but we now suspect that she may have had a weak heart.  We will never truly know.

But a few months later Sho crawled into our yard....  So maybe she knew another needed us more.....

I know that this ringworm chapter will end eventually....  Just a bit frustrating when the furry babies don't realize that you are trying to help.  Somehow we will get Graysan and Yong Gi through this.  Just glad that so far it does not seem to have spread to Tsen and Sho at my mother's house.  We are still going to dip them too as a preventive.  I just want Sho to come home.  I never thought that he would be left at my mother's for 2-3 months but I guess it is for the best.  

Wish me luck with the dipping  Two being dipped today and then Tsen and Sho sometime later this week!!  

 

 

[blacksakura6]

We did the first lime sulfur dip on Graysan and Yong Gi yesterday.  Much to our surprise Graysan was not the one we had problems with!  Yong Gi fought tooth and nail to get out of the basin that we used!   We decided to try to soak it in rather than dipping them directly and we are so glad we made that choice!  Yong Gi was flailing so bad we had to stop, and talk him down so he would not hyperventilate!  

Graysan was actually a lot calmer.  Don't know if we will be that lucky next week.  He seems to be the type of cat that puts up with something in the beginning but as you continue to do it he freaks out if he does not want it done.  All of your suggestions helped so much!  We wore coats, tried to put Graysan in the pillowcase and he promptly got out but it gave him something to clutch in the bottom of the container that we used.  We were happy for the fabric muzzle that we had because it also helped to keep the dip from flinging in their eyes (but we did use sterile eye protectant on them).  Used a washcloth which seemed to help a lot.  And once we e-collared them and got them into their crates (just kept them in there for an hour until they were damp and not dripping) I took the wash cloth and dapped the top of their heads, behind their ears and as much under the chin and neck as I could.  

Graysan is still scratching a little today behind his ear and on his shoulders.  I know I soaked them but I wonder if it got down to the skin...  Did anyone else notice itching even after the dip?  

The one mistake I think we made was when we put them in the crates we place a towel underneath to catch the drips.  I saw this in vids on YT but I question if that was the right thing to do because they began to roll and flail trying to get the comfy cones off and basically rubbed into towels.  I know you are not supposed to towel dry them but by the time I thought of that they had already rolled around in them.  I immediately took a cloth with some lime sulfur and reached in to wipe more on them....  Hope that helped some.

My husband stayed in the room with them while I ran around and cleaned the house.   I used some Citrus II hospital cleaner and after leaving it on the floor for half of an hour I washed the floors down with water.  Vacuumed like mad.  Wiped down window sils. Changed the sheets on the couch.  Did as much laundry as i could.  My house does look quite nice now!  LOL

So the question I have for everyone is when did you start to see that the lime sulfur dips were working? I know we only did one but I am curious.  Also did you continue with the topical creams or colloidal silver after the dips or did you stop with them?  I wrote my Vet to ask what we should do and I know they will e-mail me back before the day is over but I appreciate your experiences! 

Again, thank you everyone for all of the advice!   It really has helped a lot! 

 

[bunnelina]

Congratulations, you are now a dipping expert and will be able to give advice to everyone else here on technique! I'm glad it went so well!

From what I've read, one lime-sulfur dip is supposed to help treat the cat and render him/her much less contagious. I have also read that the dip is supposed to be soothing. Common sense tells me that it doesn't solve the problem overnight, however, so I would expect some scratching and discomfort to continue. Healing takes time. That's got to be why we are supposed to keep dipping them every week or even twice a week, depending upon whom you listen to and how much you and your cats can bear it! 

So give it time, and be proud of yourselves for doing such a great job! 

Keep in mind that the cat can be clear of ringworm and still look bad. I remember Dr. Moriello stating this in one of her articles. It may take time for the skin to heal after the ringworm is already gone. New lesions are always cause for alarm but the old ones may continue to look scary when they are ringworm-negative. That's another reason why the cultures are so important.

We had our four dipped weekly for several weeks. Two of our four had no signs of ringworm but were teenaged Persians with other health problems so we knew they were highly susceptible to ringworm (Persian + ill + old). All of their cultures were negative throughout. 

If you are supposed to continue topical treatments, I'd keep doing it UNLESS you find that they are irritating the skin. Some topical creams or lotions maybe overly strong and/or caustic, and may do more harm than good if the cat is sensitive. That happened with both of our kittens, Our calico has grown up with weird, tiny, blackish, circular spots on her ear where the ringworm was. I think it's because she reacted to the spot-treatment gel I was given, which made her ear look even worse than the ringworm did. Spot treatments are supposed to soothe, cover, contain, and help heal. The real cure is the dips combined with oral meds, which treat the whole cat not just the visible spots.

Keep hanging in there. Your cleaning sounds amazing, and familiar.... I remember freaking out when I spotted a tiny dust bunny on my floor in those days and thought how far I had come! Now we are swimming in dust bunnies again....