I think that the ideal diet for cats is similar to humans in that we want fresh whole foods. With cats being obligate carnivores, that means fresh whole animal. You know, that'd be a good spin-off thread: "So you feed your cat like an athlete, but how do you care for yourself?" I'd be a complete fail.
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For Gods sake when will the madness end????
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I had one of the vets on my vet hopping journey tell me the best food for a cat is a mouse. That was one thing she was right about. I know some people do that but I am nnot ready to go there.
Well, also to be clear, none of what I posted indicated that dry food is "the sole cause of urinary blockage in cats." It is a risk factor. That is an important distinction.
mice: the easiest food ever. Just thaw and serve.
Can be eaten even with an obnoxious collar (yes, I have to take new pix of the guys eating). Only now the Rogue requests the mice hand-fed whenever he sees me (ah, the spoiled beasties living in my home!)
Yep, that eating-raw-on-rugs thing has be backed off of whole prey...lol!mice: the easiest food ever. Just thaw and serve.
Can be eaten even with an obnoxious collar (yes, I have to take new pix of the guys eating). Only now the Rogue requests the mice hand-fed whenever he sees me (ah, the spoiled beasties living in my home!)
I can understand veterinary practices selling the prescription foods. For example, people ask me about feeding raw then come to me later "Yeah, I've been feeding leftover cooked bones, just like you said to!" No, that isn't what I said. At all. Matter of fact, it's 180 degrees in the opposite direction from what I said, and I'm really clear-spoken in person. Or my favorite, "I've been saving grass clippings to make my cat raw food!" Do what?! When in the world did I ever suggest that? That is the one time that I told a person straight up to leave the idea of raw completely alone and to simply buy canned cat food (I literally stressed "cat"). Some people are just...wow. So yeah, it's honestly better for some to just pick up the urinary dry kibble to keep them from killing their cats in some other interesting fashion like choking, deficiencies, and etc. Obviously I mean if the dry prescription kibble works for their cat.
I totally agree. Some people just don't care about putting in the effort to make raw food. Some do care, but they lack the resources. I'd rather have someone's cat eat kibble all their life than only cooked chicken (their interpretation of a raw diet).
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I must be doing something wrong.... My cats catch live mice, moles, birds, rabbits, snakes, u name it, outside. For free yet. But all they do is play with them till they are lifeless then drag them onto the back doormat to leave me as a trophy gift. What are they waiting for? Some Ketchup?mice: the easiest food ever. Just thaw and serve.
Can be eaten even with an obnoxious collar (yes, I have to take new pix of the guys eating). Only now the Rogue requests the mice hand-fed whenever he sees me (ah, the spoiled beasties living in my home!)
not hungry?
add obesity, tooth decay, skin problems with all the bacteria growing there
There surely are many ways to feed a cat well.
@LDG Laurie, thank you for taking the time to compile the least, but that is still not a convincing body of evidence for me. The studies cover many topics, with some of them not even being about cats. I could go over each one and tell you what I think, but the bottom line is what really matters. We still don't know much about feeding cats and which diet is best for them.
I still think that feeding a good-quality dry cat food, with the cat encouraged to drink more water, is not a bad option, at least not for most cats. I sometimes see people say things like, the best dry cat food is worse than the best canned, and I completely disagree with that assessment, myself.
As for any homemade diet, including raw, with all due respect, I don't think this is a good choice for everyone. It may very well be that a complete and balanced homemade diet is best for cats. We don't know that it is, but we don't know that it isn't either. What we do know is that if you feed it the wrong way - and we know some people can and will do that - you can kill your cat much faster than with any commercial cat food currently sold in the US or Europe. There are documented cases of that happening, alas, and I've seen it here on the forums too with homemade diets.
@peaches08 I hesitate very much when it comes to the "natural" argument. Humans need some processed foods and don't eat everything fresh either (we cook our meat and even things like potatoes). Our cats are not wild cats. They are pets. Their digestive system may or may not be the same as that of wild cats. With dogs, it's been recently shown that their digestive system has evolved since they were wolves to cope with a different kind of nutrition. With cats, it hasn't been studied yet, so nobody knows. Even if we assume it hasn't, most of our cats lead a very different lifestyle from that of their "wild" counterpart, or even a "feral in the wild", whatever they may even be. Pet cats, specifically the ones that are kept indoors, live a far more sedentary lifestyle and are almost always neutered. It's not inconceivable that they may be better off with a diet that's slightly different than what most prey model recipes suggest.
I really want to say again that I am not anti-raw or anti-homemade or pro-kibble. Just that I don't think it's a black and white situation at all.
@LDG Laurie, thank you for taking the time to compile the least, but that is still not a convincing body of evidence for me. The studies cover many topics, with some of them not even being about cats. I could go over each one and tell you what I think, but the bottom line is what really matters. We still don't know much about feeding cats and which diet is best for them.
I still think that feeding a good-quality dry cat food, with the cat encouraged to drink more water, is not a bad option, at least not for most cats. I sometimes see people say things like, the best dry cat food is worse than the best canned, and I completely disagree with that assessment, myself.
As for any homemade diet, including raw, with all due respect, I don't think this is a good choice for everyone. It may very well be that a complete and balanced homemade diet is best for cats. We don't know that it is, but we don't know that it isn't either. What we do know is that if you feed it the wrong way - and we know some people can and will do that - you can kill your cat much faster than with any commercial cat food currently sold in the US or Europe. There are documented cases of that happening, alas, and I've seen it here on the forums too with homemade diets.
@peaches08 I hesitate very much when it comes to the "natural" argument. Humans need some processed foods and don't eat everything fresh either (we cook our meat and even things like potatoes). Our cats are not wild cats. They are pets. Their digestive system may or may not be the same as that of wild cats. With dogs, it's been recently shown that their digestive system has evolved since they were wolves to cope with a different kind of nutrition. With cats, it hasn't been studied yet, so nobody knows. Even if we assume it hasn't, most of our cats lead a very different lifestyle from that of their "wild" counterpart, or even a "feral in the wild", whatever they may even be. Pet cats, specifically the ones that are kept indoors, live a far more sedentary lifestyle and are almost always neutered. It's not inconceivable that they may be better off with a diet that's slightly different than what most prey model recipes suggest.
I really want to say again that I am not anti-raw or anti-homemade or pro-kibble. Just that I don't think it's a black and white situation at all.
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Okay, to be fair, you haven't come right out and said this, but, as part of comments in response to a thread that started off being about the evils of dry food once again, coupled with your response to Anne that zeros in on the subject of dry food and lack of moisture (to the exclusion of other causes) as this relates to urinary tract infections, you have to admit that it would not be hard for someone to draw the conclusion based on your comments, that dry food is a sole cause of URIs.
Your comment that states 'We do know that a dry diet (that on average is just 10% moisture) does not provide enough moisture to a cat to create a properly hydrated state'. Where is it written that dry food is supposed to provide moisture to a cat? They get moisture from water, or I will concede, a meat diet to a certain extent, but that said, I am not convinced that meat alone is sufficiently hydrating to a cat. We domesticated cats to consume dry food, wet food, to drink water. For this reason, the age-old argument of cats being descendent from those who lived in the desert, and therefore are not interested in drinking water, just doesn't hold up anymore in my opinion.
As someone who has three cats, two of which were fed nothing but dry food for the first 4 years they were with me, I am happy to report that they never blocked when on dry, had any sort of urinary infection, and have always been very good water drinkers. Still are and the majority of their diet is wet canned. I have to think there are other cats out there in the same boat, we just don't hear about it.
And while I am at it, I would like to respond to the OPs original post with a few thoughts.
I get so INCENSED AND OUTRAGED when I see these stories..... People....how much more pain and suffering are we going to allow to be inflicted??? This is some of the most inhumane and cruel torture imagineable - and it is all needless.
WE KNOW KIBBLE IS BAD FOR CATS. I am sick and tired of vets that come out as mouthpieces for the pet food conglomerates. How much does Purina donate to the Cornell School of Veterinary Medicine????It is no different than when the tabacco companies downplayed the health risks or the asbestos companies - remember them?! Lives mean nothing to these heartless people who only know their selfish greed.
God bless Dr Pierson and those that are standing up for what is right. For they are the righteous ones. We need more to join them.
I would hope that the owners of this site and others like it start to do whatever small steps they can to educate cat owners about the dangers of feeding kibble. Folks there is no `premium` good kibble. Even the most expensive brand is dangerous. The problem is poor protein, lack of moisture, and high carb content.
Lord please continue to enlighten us and show us the way.
First, there is a considerable difference between cheaper, grocery store dry foods and a few premium holistic foods that are far superior for meat source ingredients and the quality of this, as well as the amounts of carbs and fillers that are found in economy brands versus premium brands. There are also differences in the manufacturing process of cheaper versus premium brands of food. More care is taken by smaller regional companies when it comes making dry food and I believe this makes a big difference. I think it is pretty easy to lump all foods into the same basket when reading many of the 'studies' that warn of the risks involved in feeding dry food, but it is worth mentioning that chances are very good that those conducting these studies, weren't using Nature's Variety, HALO or other premium brand foods, but probably grabbed any old bag, when they conducted their studies.
Secondly, to say that dry food is dangerous and poisonous is just not right. Not all dry foods contain poor ingredients, nor do all feature a high carb content. There is a lot of information out there. Much of it is biased. You mention Dr. Pierson and her work to champion good nutrition for cats. I would agree with this assessment, however, as much as Dr. Pierson would like to see all cats eating a good amount of meat protein, when she talks about animal-based protein versus plant-based, she is referring to dry food that contains things like corn, wheat, rice, barley. Many of the premium foods today do not contain things like corn, wheat, rice, barley, but are high protein (in some cases from a variety of meat sources) and do contain some carbs which are required to bind the food. Cats can handle some carbs, but too much can be problematic. That said, there are premium foods that are low in carbs.
I feed my cats predominantly (premium) wet canned and some commercial raw food, but I also feed a bit of premium dry food as well. I think it is important to research food and learn the discern the differences between what is good food and truly bad food. Not every cat will do well on just dry food, or wet food, or raw and homemade. I think if you read enough posts here, you will find this out for yourself.
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No disagreement from me there. My point was that there is published information out there that can help inform opinions (or not). Edited to add: obviously that was not meant to be an exhaustive list. The information (published, peer-review studies) is out there about moisture and bladder health.
While as you know I am a proponent of raw feeding
, I absolutely agree - it is not for everyone. Though commercial raw foods - where available - make it as easy as feeding canned, and reduces (if not removes at least to the same extent as canned or kibble) the nutritionally-balanced-diet-risk. I think it important to separate raw into "homemade" and "commercial," because there is risk with homemade that does not exist with commercial. IMO, commercial raw presents no more nutritional risk than canned or kibble.
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Yeah, I hear owners of Siberian Huskies talk about how closely related their dogs are to wolves. They get offended when I remind them that their husky is as related to the wolf as a Chihuahua. The coloration may be eerily similar, but so are Siamese cats and Charolais cows.
When I said fresh whole foods, I mean that I think an apple is generally better nutrition than sugary apple juice. Or maybe no sugar added apple sauce is a better alternative for those of us that have sensitive tummies. But sugary apple juice shouldn't be confused as the same as eating an apple. Not that I think we should feed cats apples, lol! But just as we have not evolved since the invention of cereals, the domestic house cat has not evolved since the invention of dry kibble (WWII? The 1950's? I get conflicting information.). So when I say fresh whole foods, I don't mean to exclude some processing. Maybe grinding my cats' raw opens up certain nutrients for them. Maybe prey model allows the cat to operate at their fullest capacity when extruding the nutrients for themselves. I honestly don't know. But boiling a meat (hamburger meat, for example) into something unrecognizable (rendering)...I don't know that the food can be considered ideal nutritionally when compared to plain ground hamburger meat (cooked or not). But I will absolutely advise someone to buy commercial and balanced instead of forcing unbalanced homemade. I totally agree with that.
When I said fresh whole foods, I mean that I think an apple is generally better nutrition than sugary apple juice. Or maybe no sugar added apple sauce is a better alternative for those of us that have sensitive tummies. But sugary apple juice shouldn't be confused as the same as eating an apple. Not that I think we should feed cats apples, lol! But just as we have not evolved since the invention of cereals, the domestic house cat has not evolved since the invention of dry kibble (WWII? The 1950's? I get conflicting information.). So when I say fresh whole foods, I don't mean to exclude some processing. Maybe grinding my cats' raw opens up certain nutrients for them. Maybe prey model allows the cat to operate at their fullest capacity when extruding the nutrients for themselves. I honestly don't know. But boiling a meat (hamburger meat, for example) into something unrecognizable (rendering)...I don't know that the food can be considered ideal nutritionally when compared to plain ground hamburger meat (cooked or not). But I will absolutely advise someone to buy commercial and balanced instead of forcing unbalanced homemade. I totally agree with that.
Well I'm sorry, but I will have to respectfully disagree. The thread is discussing problems with dry food. I listed published research indicating the role of dry food as a risk factor in urinary health. If someone wants to read more into it than that, I don't see how I should be held responsible for that. :dk:
The 10% moisture content of a kibble diet is context. It is an indication of how much water a cat must drink to be properly hydrated. We know from the NRC - above - that a cat needs a minimum of 62% hydration consuming food to retain water balance. (Meaning the body uses water to process food).
You don't need to be convinced. I posted the references to the studies that indicate it is a fact (that cats are able to maintain water balance when fed meat or fish containing 67% - 73% water, without drinking any water (Caldwell, 1931; Danowski et al., 1944; Prentiss et al., 1959) - from the Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats, the work considered the definitive source of what is currently known about the nutritional needs of dogs and cats, the basis of AAFCO and FEDIAF feeding guidelines and nutrient recommendations.
Actually, the theory is that cats (were domesticated / domesticated themselves) chose to live alongside humans, and humans allowed this to happen or encouraged this, because cats ate the rodents that depleted grain stores. Cats have been living alongside humans for at least 10,000 years that we know of - yet commercial food was first sold for cats about 70 years ago.
To this day, cats living indoor-only with limited outdoor access is only approximately 60% of the population of owned cats in the U.S. So I don't even get what you mean when you say "we domesticated cats to consume dry food."
And of my 8 cats, only three had blockages on the dry-food only diet. :dk: As I said up in another post (#33), I personally do not use "lack of urinary blockage" as the only health criteria.
As to your cats being good drinkers, of course, many cats are. But the general "lack of thirst drive" in cats has been documented, and the published work indicates that cats - on average - drink only 2 mL of water per gram of dry food... and this presents a risk for urolith formation. :dk: Not an opinion.
Also, technically crystals aren't an infection.
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This is just one cat, but when I got Ruby in November from the SPCA (she's around 3 years old) I fed her the same she had been getting there: 2 IAMS small cans a day, plus 1/4 cup dry IAMS. Right from the first couple days, she would throw up a clear liquid either during the day between meals or overnight. Not every day, but a few times a week, plus she always had loose stools.
In January she started leaving kibble in her dish, which was unusual, as she never leaves leftovers for later. A few days later she threw up a few times during the night and right after eating her breakfast wet food. Like a panicked new kitty mom I took her to the vet that morning.
The vet suspected IBD or IBS and suggested trying the Royal Canin hypo-allergenic canned food only - no dry. That totally cured her digestive issues. Her stools instantly became tootsie roll-like. And she never throws up the clear liquid anymore. She did throw up 2 furballs back in the spring when she was doing her spring shedding, but nothing since.
All she gets now is a can of the wet food split in morning and evening, plus some Royal Canin or Temptations treats. So for me the wet vet food cured her. I'd like to try store brand wet food to save money, but I can't justify it, because she has to be happier now that she's not throwing up all the time.
Interesting, also, when she gets more Temptations treats than usual, her stools become more diarrhea-like, so for Ruby, too much dry is bad.
In January she started leaving kibble in her dish, which was unusual, as she never leaves leftovers for later. A few days later she threw up a few times during the night and right after eating her breakfast wet food. Like a panicked new kitty mom I took her to the vet that morning.
The vet suspected IBD or IBS and suggested trying the Royal Canin hypo-allergenic canned food only - no dry. That totally cured her digestive issues. Her stools instantly became tootsie roll-like. And she never throws up the clear liquid anymore. She did throw up 2 furballs back in the spring when she was doing her spring shedding, but nothing since.
All she gets now is a can of the wet food split in morning and evening, plus some Royal Canin or Temptations treats. So for me the wet vet food cured her. I'd like to try store brand wet food to save money, but I can't justify it, because she has to be happier now that she's not throwing up all the time.
Interesting, also, when she gets more Temptations treats than usual, her stools become more diarrhea-like, so for Ruby, too much dry is bad.
Yes, I think we do agree, Laurie. It's why I tried to emphasize homemade and not raw. Most homemade today seems to be raw, I think, but the problem isn't with it being raw, but with it being homemade. I don't think that homemade it's rocket science either, btw, just that it's not as simple as feeding a commercial diet.No disagreement from me there. My point was that there is published information out there that can help inform opinions (or not).
While as you know I am a proponent of raw feeding, I absolutely agree - it is not for everyone. Though commercial raw foods - where available - make it as easy as feeding canned, and reduces (if not removes at least to the same extent as canned or kibble) the nutritionally-balanced-diet-risk. I think it important to separate raw into "homemade" and "commercial," because there is risk with homemade that does not exist with commercial. IMO, commercial raw presents no more nutritional risk than canned or kibble.
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Appreciate your thoughts. I think your method of feeding a variety of canned, raw, and dry is probably a very good way to avoid the problems that occur when just relying soley on one particular food source. As much as I love pizza - surely it would make me sick if that is all I ate year after year.
My issue when starting the thread was that I had just read another member`s horror stories about his blocked cat. I had both of my boys block - at 3 years old for heavens sake - just when cats should be in their prime. So it hit home.... deeply.... and disturbingly. If you have ever witnessed a blocked cats yowls of pain then you know how just the thought of it is feels like getting stabbed in the heart all over again. I don`t know .... maybe its just me. I almost cry when I see some poor raccoon as road kill now and then. I fed my cats exclusively kibble when they blocked. I wanted to know why they blocked. We had many cats when I was a kid in the 70s that my father fed raw and I had never even heard of this problem until it happened to me. I wanted to make sure it didn`t happen again so I studied the 2 possible variables in my mind: the food and the litter. I was using clay litter at the time and thought perhaps the betonite dust was getting into the penis when they sat on it and the clumping was actually happening in the urinary tract. After learning about struvite and oxalate I rejected this and focused solely on food as the culprit.
So the issue is I had no idea WHY this happened to my cats. I just wanted to avoid it again. That led me to intensive studying to hopefully prevent it. I have researched and I have my opinion. It just opens up the old wound all over again when I see this same thing happen to other innocent pet owners. And they keep coming. Hopefully they have the means and are able to get to a vet in time. Otherwise I cannot think of a much more excruciating way for a cat to have died.
My opinion is there could be more done to prevent this - there has to be. It probably starts with education. It just frustrates me that it looks after all these years the situation is not improving.
I'd like to add something to this: chronic dehydration causes kidney damage. I think this is where if someone feeds kibble, if they get nothing else out of this discussion, please don't just rely on a dish on the floor to provide water. Look into fountains, etc. PLEASE make sure your cat drinks enough water.Well I'm sorry, but I will have to respectfully disagree. The thread is discussing problems with dry food. I listed published research indicating the role of dry food as a risk factor in urinary health. If someone wants to read more into it than that, I don't see how I should be held responsible for that.
The 10% moisture content of a kibble diet is context. It is an indication of how much water a cat must drink to be properly hydrated. We know from the NRC - above - that a cat needs a minimum of 62% hydration consuming food to retain water balance. (Meaning the body uses water to process food).
You don't need to be convinced. I posted the references to the studies that indicate it is a fact (that cats are able to maintain water balance when fed meat or fish containing 67% - 73% water, without drinking any water (Caldwell, 1931; Danowski et al., 1944; Prentiss et al., 1959) - from the Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats, the work considered the definitive source of what is currently known about the nutritional needs of dogs and cats, the basis of AAFCO and FEDIAF feeding guidelines and nutrient recommendations.
Actually, the theory is that cats (were domesticated / domesticated themselves) chose to live alongside humans, and humans allowed this to happen or encouraged this, because cats ate the rodents that depleted grain stores. Cats have been living alongside humans for at least 10,000 years that we know of - yet commercial food was first sold for cats about 70 years ago.
To this day, cats living indoor-only with limited outdoor access is only approximately 60% of the population of owned cats in the U.S. So I don't even get what you mean when you say "we domesticated cats to consume dry food."
And of my 8 cats, only three had blockages on the dry-food only diet.As I said up in another post (#33), I personally do not use "lack of urinary blockage" as the only health criteria.
As to your cats being good drinkers, of course, many cats are. But the general "lack of thirst drive" in cats has been documented, and the published work indicates that cats - on average - drink only 2 mL of water per gram of dry food... and this presents a risk for urolith formation.Not an opinion.
Also, technically crystals aren't an infection.
l'm enjoying this discussion!
Someone (sorry, l don't remember who it was) asked the question, why don't veterinarians keep track of the cats they see in their practice and the food they're given.
Or why isn't such freely available data used, rather than having to launch studies?
l choose the diet l do because l think it's the right thing. l don't KNOW it's the right thing, l could very well be wrong, but l think it's the right thing based on what l've read here and elsewhere.
l would love to keep a database of anyone's cats over a long term if anyone is interested. Cats fed different diets, what the diets are, age, weight, etc. We could compare blood-work, urinalyses, annual health checks, teeth condition, etc. Just as a purely interest group, of course. PM me if you're interested.
Someone (sorry, l don't remember who it was) asked the question, why don't veterinarians keep track of the cats they see in their practice and the food they're given.
Or why isn't such freely available data used, rather than having to launch studies?
l choose the diet l do because l think it's the right thing. l don't KNOW it's the right thing, l could very well be wrong, but l think it's the right thing based on what l've read here and elsewhere.
l would love to keep a database of anyone's cats over a long term if anyone is interested. Cats fed different diets, what the diets are, age, weight, etc. We could compare blood-work, urinalyses, annual health checks, teeth condition, etc. Just as a purely interest group, of course. PM me if you're interested.
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Well I'm sorry, but I will have to respectfully disagree. The thread is discussing problems with dry food. I listed published research indicating the role of dry food as a risk factor in urinary health. If someone wants to read more into it than that, I don't see how I should be held responsible for that.
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