For Gods sake when will the madness end????

[sarah ann]

I will go against the flow and say that I liked Purina. I never had my cats experience a urinary blockage on Purina. One of my cats is 10 years old. I tried switching him to a higher protein (supposedly healthier cat food) and he blocked. I spent $600 saving his life.

My other cat, I put on Natures Variety LID turkey canned. He also developed struvite crystals, got an infection and I spent over $1000 on him alone. I had to remove the carpeting from my house due to the damage that food caused.

People can say canned food is better, that higher protein is better, but there is more to it than that.  I read all of Dr. Pierson's website. Not once does she mention that methionine is an essential amino acid and that it needs to be included in cat food for urinary health. Dr. Pierson may have a Magnesium/phosphorus chart, but that is not going to fix the problem with urinary issues. You need to know the amount of methionine that is in the cat food to determine if it is safe for a cat with urinary issues.

I even tried homemade diets and my cat's urinary ph was too high. If I had continued to feed home-made, he would have developed crystals again.

If your cat is not getting enough water intake on kibble, add water on top of the food. Many rescues feed kibble to cats and manage to save lives. I don't think kibble is what is killing our cats. Obesity might if the owner overfeeds. Urinary blockages might if the food does not have enough methionine in it (or too much).

Kidney failure is tentatively linked to vaccines but it still has not been proven yet.

Too much focus on the food, causes people to over look other issues. 

 

[abbyntim]

 
That`s great advice.   I will be looking for a new vet once the adoption for my shelter kitty goes thru.   I was thinking of interviewing about 6 or 7 of the regular vets around here to see how they answer standard questions (like is throwing up hairballs weekly considered normal for cats, etc) but if I can find a holistic vet that would make it much easier.   It would be great if there were a central directory for them on the web.

There is: http://www.ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html

 

[zoneout]

 
Equally alarming - l subscribe to a veterinary publication that is delivered to Canadian vets. ln it, time after time after time...(recurring) the articles say "may be caused by degydration", "exacerbated by dehydration", "brought on by dehydration", etc. Some articles even allude to the fact that feeding wet is better AFTER they've become ill. But never, NEVER do these articles say hey, why don't we get proactive and advise people not to feed kibble!

It is beyond sad.   The journalists of these articles obviously are well-aware of the problem.    We have to ask WHY aren`t they coming out strongly advising people not to feed kibble.  Putting a warning on the bag to ALWAYS PROVIDE FRESH WATER (as they already do) is obviously not the answer due to the nature of the feline thirst drive.   Either they are too weak-willed to to stand up for a cause to prevent cruelty and jeopardize subsidies they receive.   OR perhaps they are naive enough to believe that food scientists in the labs in Purina, Hill`s, etc will actually  figure out a solution to this problem.    Because the only solution to this problem is to feed REAL food - not something concocted in a laboratory.

 

[zoneout]

As a point of reference, to any of you who enjoy watching movies....  there was a film that came out about 15-20 years ago called `Super-size Me`.     It is a documentary about a young healthy man who decided to see what would happen to him if he just started eating all his meals at McDonalds.   Well its a great film and I think the moral it provides is very similar to what we discuss here.     Health and diet are inextricably intertwined.

 

[Willowy]

. Not once does she mention that methionine is an essential amino acid and that it needs to be included in cat food for urinary health

Meat naturally contains methionine, so if a food has enough meat it shouldn't need any added artificial methionine.

 

[peaches08]

 
People can say canned food is better, that higher protein is better, but there is more to it than that.  I read all of Dr. Pierson's website. Not once does she mention that methionine is an essential amino acid and that it needs to be included in cat food for urinary health. Dr. Pierson may have a Magnesium/phosphorus chart, but that is not going to fix the problem with urinary issues. You need to know the amount of methionine that is in the cat food to determine if it is safe for a cat with urinary issues.

She mentions methionine here, but perhaps this not what you were looking for http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth#Urinalysis/Dietary_Issues.

"For many years, struvite (magnesium, ammonium, and phosphorus) was the predominant mineral mixture found in cat urine due to the species-inappropriate level of grains in cat food.  Knowing this, humans stepped in and started acidifying commercial cat food with things like dl methionine - instead of cutting into profit margin by removing the grains and going back to meat. 

The so-called 'urinary tract formulas' were born.

Unfortunately, in trying to 'fix' a cat's unnatural alkaline urinary pH - caused by human greed in the first place - pet food manufacturers created even more problems by adding urinary acidifiers in the form of dl methionine, etc., which led to the formation of calcium oxalate (CaO) crystals/stones in many cats.  Suddenly, there were far more patients suffering with CaO crystals/stones than there were patients with struvite crystals/stones."

 

[jodiethierry64]

As a point of reference, to any of you who enjoy watching movies....  there was a film that came out about 15-20 years ago called `Super-size Me`.     It is a I,documentary about a young healthy man who decided to see what would happen to him if he just started eating all his meals at McDonalds.   Well its a great film and I think the moral it provides is very similar to what we discuss here.     Health and diet are inextricably intertwined.

I will have to watch that.
You know years ago people made home cooked meals. We had a population that was not overweight or obese. My family had fast-food twice a year, like if we went to an amusement park. That's it. When we went out to eat, it was a real Italian or Chinese restaurant and that was maybe every other month. If you eat properly, fresh fruits and vegetables, you won't become obese. I know a lot of obese people are poor. They don't eat right. Fast food is another reason. One big mac and fries is your days calorie intake. Our felines are being fed fast food (dry).

 

[zoneout]

I will have to watch that.
You know years ago people made home cooked meals. We had a population that was not overweight or obese. My family had fast-food twice a year, like if we went to an amusement park. That's it. When we went out to eat, it was a real Italian or Chinese restaurant and that was maybe every other month. If you eat properly, fresh fruits and vegetables, you won't become obese. I know a lot of obese people are poor. They don't eat right. Fast food is another reason. One big mac and fries is your days calorie intake.

Its funny you mention it.    Now that I think about growing up in the `old` days my mom was always cooking at home.   Though dad still had a `gut` due to his penchant for bread, potatoes, and beer.    But going to a restaurant was only for the occasional chinese meal (dad called them masters of the vegetables).    Fast food never entered their mind.    Of course it did for me especially entering college.

Our felines are being fed fast food (dry).

As a society we crave convenience - whether for ourselves or our cats.    But you are spot on....  lifestyles are totally different from the last generation.

 

[stewball]

I've had cats for over 20 years and have only fed them dry food with no ill effects. My Lotto went to rainbow bridge last year aged about 20.

IMG-20140315-WA0007~2.jpg

• stewball
• Jun 30, 2014

I've now got whisky an abandoned siamese and blighty a black and white street cat.

20140525_103952.jpg

• stewball
• Jun 30, 2014

They're eating 'Go' a dry food without cereals and share a small tin of wet food at bedtime as a treat.

 

[nbrazil]

Beautiful companions, Stewball. 

Just remember... there are people who smoke their entire life and never get cancer, and then are people (like my brother and grandmother) who NEVER smoked and die of lung cancer. You just never know.

That much being said, we all make choices we believe are appropriate knowing the risks (or our perception of the risks). Like whether to purchase pet health insurance. Choices.

 

[denice]

Most of the illnesses associated with inappropriate diet also have a genetic component. My kitty had his first IBD flare when he was only 18 months old most cats have their first flare in middle age. I was feeding all kibble at the time. I am sure it was a combination of genetic predisposition and inappropriate diet

 

[zoneout]

My vet would have you fill out the normal paperwork which included what they ate. I would put down 90% friskies dry and 10% friskies can. Not once did my vet educate me. My felines had issues like obesity, diabetes, cystitis and blockages.    I'm furious. When I changed their diet, thanks to the people on this site, I told my vet and why.

It`s interesting because I have been questioning vets online for the past year as to why they DO NOT simply keep track of what their patients are fed so that they will be able to see trends after evaluating the data.   Your vet is one of the few that I have heard of doing this.   And I totally get why you felt betrayed that she never warned you about potential problems with the food you were using.   I think the question that needs to be asked is WHY was she asking her patients to provide the info about food in the first place.   I believe your assumption is that she took the data in order to warn (or should have warned) patients if the food they were using was questionable.   I think vets should do this - especially if they discover particular brands being recalled.   But I guess my point is to take it a step further and why not process the data to see if certain foods are producing abnormally high outcomes for certain diseases.   Geez, with the powerful yet cheap computers we have these days I would think this a fairly easy exercise.

 

[ldg]

I will go against the flow and say that I liked Purina. I never had my cats experience a urinary blockage on Purina. One of my cats is 10 years old. I tried switching him to a higher protein (supposedly healthier cat food) and he blocked. I spent $600 saving his life.

My other cat, I put on Natures Variety LID turkey canned. He also developed struvite crystals, got an infection and I spent over $1000 on him alone. I had to remove the carpeting from my house due to the damage that food caused.

People can say canned food is better, that higher protein is better, but there is more to it than that.  I read all of Dr. Pierson's website. Not once does she mention that methionine is an essential amino acid and that it needs to be included in cat food for urinary health. Dr. Pierson may have a Magnesium/phosphorus chart, but that is not going to fix the problem with urinary issues. You need to know the amount of methionine that is in the cat food to determine if it is safe for a cat with urinary issues.

I even tried homemade diets and my cat's urinary ph was too high. If I had continued to feed home-made, he would have developed crystals again.

If your cat is not getting enough water intake on kibble, add water on top of the food. Many rescues feed kibble to cats and manage to save lives. I don't think kibble is what is killing our cats. Obesity might if the owner overfeeds. Urinary blockages might if the food does not have enough methionine in it (or too much).

Kidney failure is tentatively linked to vaccines but it still has not been proven yet.

Too much focus on the food, causes people to over look other issues. 

I personally do not use "lack of urinary blockage" as the only health criteria. I have three boys that blocked multiple times, one that needed surgery to remove an embedded stone in his bladder wall (that was only discovered by high resolution MRI), so I definitely understand the fear, the expense, and the concern of including urinary health in diet considerations. But with that as the only consideration, having transitioned those cats to raw at 10 years old, I can see them paying the price of 9 years of having access to prescription kibble (for 7 of the 9 years) with all the steps I have to take to control hairballs. (The MRI alone was $1,800, forget the multiple hospitalizations for all three). Those species-inappropriate foods that controlled their body's use of excess ash in the diet cost them plenty in other ways. Had I never switched them to a healthier diet, I'm sure I'd be blissfully unaware of the problem.

Meat naturally contains methionine, so if a food has enough meat it shouldn't need any added artificial methionine.

. :nod:

When a fresh, animal-tissue based diet (cooked or raw) does not result in the proper urine pH, the problem is not methionine. You can *use* methionine to get to the proper pH, but then you run the risk, long term, of metabolic acidosis causing renal failure. This has been linked since Purina wrote a piece on it in 1998. And yet we still want to correct urine pH with acidifiers, rather than approaching the problem with a new paradigm.

http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=743091&pageID=1&sk=&date=

I have a cat whose pH rises to alkaline with a raw diet. Obviously there are other issues that need to be addressed - and that is just what I've been doing.

 

[Anne]

As of yet, there are no lifetime studies comparing approaches to feline nutrition in a scientific manner. It's impossible to say that one diet is better than the other. All we have until then is just opinions, many of them based on assumptions and, IMHO, fallacies.

The bottom line is millions of cats have lived to a healthy ripe old age having been fed commercial cat food, canned or dry. As mentioned above, feeding a homemade diet without knowing how to do it properly is far more dangerous to cats.

It all comes down to life choices, for ourselves and our cats. As a community, we are passionate about doing what we can do best for our cats, but it's a question of finding the best solution for each cat and each owner, in each specific situation.

Currently, there is no scientific evidence to show that one way is superior to another. There are some perceived pros and cons to each way. The comparison to smoking is beyond far-fetched. The official recommendation to avoid smoking is backed up by a HUGE body of scientific evidence. Avoiding kibble is not.

TCS will remain a community open to all forms of feeding cats. That also means homemade diets - as Laurie mentioned, it was the theme for the month of June with lots of new articles - but also feeding canned and kibble. 

 

[zoneout]

Fair enough Anne.  

I just have to wonder when I continue to see posts here on a frequent basis from frantic owners whose otherwise young, healthy cats have blocked.   From an admittedly unscientific observation it appears to me that kibble was being fed about 90% of the time.   Furthermore, the petfood companies themselves acknowledged the problem by recently coming out with a new formulation for kibble that adds extra salt which supposedly makes the cat thirstier and thus provides more impetus to head for the water dish and increase water intake.

Point is we can make informed judgements without scientific studies that will probably never happen because of the expense anyway.    I am not sure waiting for an unbiased study is prudent when animals are suffering - I have heard the howls of blocked cats - it is one of the most painful inflictions I can imagine.

If I walk under a tree 3 times and get hit by lightning, I don`t need to establish a study to understand that it is unsafe to walk under that tree.   Mankind has probably learned much more from keen observation than scientific studies over the millennia.  

But if we ever get an unbiased study that says kibble is totally fine - I will be the first to admit I was wrong and take my lashings here with wet cat whip toys.

Z

 

[Anne]

 
Fair enough Anne.  

I just have to wonder when I continue to see posts here on a frequent basis from frantic owners whose otherwise young, healthy cats have blocked.   From an admittedly unscientific observation it appears to me that kibble was being fed about 90% of the time.   Furthermore, the petfood companies themselves acknowledged the problem by recently coming out with a new formulation for kibble that adds extra salt which supposedly makes the cat thirstier and thus provides more impetus to head for the water dish and increase water intake.

Point is we can make informed judgements without scientific studies that will probably never happen because of the expense anyway.    I am not sure waiting for an unbiased study is prudent when animals are suffering - I have heard the howls of blocked cats - it is one of the most painful inflictions I can imagine.

If I walk under a tree 3 times and get hit by lightning, I don`t need to establish a study to understand that it is unsafe to walk under that tree.   Mankind has probably learned much more from keen observation than scientific studies over the millennia.  

But if we ever get an unbiased study that says kibble is totally fine - I will be the first to admit I was wrong and take my lashings here with wet cat whip toys.

Z

It's perfectly legitimate to have opinions and feed your cats accordingly. My point is that without scientific evidence we need to be more tolerant of other people's choices.

I've had perfectly good results with cats fed kibble, as have many others. No blockages whatsoever. Does that mean kibble is a wonderful option? Not necessarily, since it's only my own personal anecdotal experience. Blanket recommendations are always a bit of a problem. 

And you're absolutely right that we probably won't have any good scientific data in the foreseeable future and that in the mean time we should each research the topics as best we can and make the decisions that best suit our specific cats and our lifestyle. 

 

[ldg]

As of yet, there are no lifetime studies comparing approaches to feline nutrition in a scientific manner. It's impossible to say that one diet is better than the other. All we have until then is just opinions, many of them based on assumptions and, IMHO, fallacies.

The bottom line is millions of cats have lived to a healthy ripe old age having been fed commercial cat food, canned or dry. As mentioned above, feeding a homemade diet without knowing how to do it properly is far more dangerous to cats.

It all comes down to life choices, for ourselves and our cats. As a community, we are passionate about doing what we can do best for our cats, but it's a question of finding the best solution for each cat and each owner, in each specific situation.

Currently, there is no scientific evidence to show that one way is superior to another. There are some perceived pros and cons to each way. The comparison to smoking is beyond far-fetched. The official recommendation to avoid smoking is backed up by a HUGE body of scientific evidence. Avoiding kibble is not.

TCS will remain a community open to all forms of feeding cats. That also means homemade diets - as Laurie mentioned, it was the theme for the month of June with lots of new articles - but also feeding canned and kibble. 

While we have no lifetime studies, we do have more than just opinions.

A survey of over 500 dogs, in an attempt to establish a causality between "quality of life, animals' well-being, and life expectancy" conducted between 1998 and 2003 in Belgium, found that (dogs of all breeds, sexes, both sterilized and unsterilized, some with access to gardens, some without) lived, on average, 32 months longer if fed a homemade diet (only) rather than a commercial diet (only). No, it is not high-quality data. But the difference, as the authors state, is "important," or as I would put it, significant, and worthy of further study. http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapyFullReport.pdf


As to the body of evidence, we have a growing body of evidence that indicates kibble .... is not the healthiest choice for cats, meaning there are associated risk factors.

We do know that a dry diet (that on average is just 10% moisture) does not provide enough moisture to a cat to create a properly hydrated state.

"...both dogs and cats are able to maintain water balance when fed meat or fish containing 67% - 73% water, without drinking any water (Caldwell, 1931; Danowski et al., 1944; Prentiss et al., 1959). However, even cats could not maintain water balance with meat dessicated to a moisture content of 61 percent (Prentiss et al., 1959).... "

And the lack of thirst drive in cats is discussed, as it has been documented (Chew 1965, Adolph 1974) "Cats are slower to initiate water drinking or to drink enough for complete rehydration than dogs... This weak thirst drive of cats results in a water intake of only about 2 mL of water for every gram of dry food ingested and an increased risk of urolith formation as compared to cats fed food containing more water, such as a canned food containing 78-82 percent water."

...as is the best approach to proper hydration in a cat is moisture in the food, as it has been shown that it requires 2% - 4% sodium be added to food to get a cat to drink more water, and this is an amount that risks "adverse events." (Anderson 1982).

All of the above is from pp 22 - 23 Nutrient Requirement of Dogs and Cats (2006), Nutrition Research Council.


So

- with a low-moisture diet, concentrated urine is a risk in the creation of crystals/stones and thus blockages

"A high moisture diet is recommended for cats with stones to decrease the urine concentration of mineral precursors and is the cornerstone of therapy for urolithiasis in human (19) and veterinary medicine. Increasing the water content for cats with FIC may help improve clinical signs by encouraging frequent voidings. It has been reported that LUTS recurred in only 11% of affected FIC cats during 1 year of feeding the canned formulation of a dietary product. Recurrence occurred in 39% of cats fed the dry formulation of the same food, suggesting that increased moisture may be important, but the reasons for this effect remain to be determined.(20)" http://www.hillscampus.it/files/sim...ors in feline lower urinary tract disease.pdf​

- cats being fed a dry diet is associated as a risk factor in urethral obstruction: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21145768

- a high protein diet is superior to controlling urine pH and crystal formation in cats than ammonium chloride http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12926602

- and carbohydrates are associated with struvite crystal formation http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14974568


Of course there are cats eating kibble that have not had problems with crystals or blockages. But using kibble as a sole diet is an increased risk for at least crystals and blockages, as is a perpetually chronic state of dehydration (even if mild), which does have health consequences.

 

[ldg]

But using kibble as a sole diet is an increased risk for at least crystals and blockages, as is a perpetually chronic state of dehydration (even if mild), which does have health consequences.

To be accurate:

Using kibble as a sole diet without ensuring the cat drinks sufficient water to maintain a hydrated state is an increased risk...

 

[thesighrye]

Personally I prefer to have my cat's main source of food be wet food, and leave a little dry food for her to nibble on throughout the day.

My vet has warned me of a sole dry food diet being a hindrance on their hydration and thus crystals and the like can be formed and cause urinary tract issues.....but I've ALWAYS fed my cats some dry food.

The same goes for everything...everything in moderation. If you ate McDonald's food constantly, would your health decline? Most definitely. But if you had it a couple times a month? Highly unlikely. 

 

[oneandahalfcats]

To be accurate:

Using kibble as a sole diet without ensuring the cat drinks sufficient water to maintain a hydrated state is an increased risk...

Good that you added this condition, as it makes ALL the difference. To suggest that a diet of dry food alone is the sole cause of urinary blockage in cats, without taking into consideration other factors such as amount of water being consumed, other possible contributing factors such as a cat's specific predisposition, and stress, is short-sighted and potentially misleading if the only information people are getting about the causes of urinary tract infections, are warnings about dry food.