Struvite crystals vet RX Food

Hello,

I want to make a point.. Spook had struvite crystals last November and was put on Royal Canin S/O Moderate calorie.

He since had no problems .

I have another cat with probable IBD, Boo, he is maintaining well on Nature's variety Instinct LImited Ingredient Diet, dry & Canned.

However, when I have accidently left out the Royal Canin S/O and Boo has gotten into it he has thrown up.

I tried leaving the Nature's Variety out high up where Boo knows it is but Spook has been getting into it.

Today Spook started going to the litter box frequently and only tiny amounts where coming out and I knew he had crystals again and a possible infection...

I have heard some people state by just getting them off dry and feeding them a high quality grain free canned food is better for them but in my Spooks case this is not true.

So my point is if a vet says your cat needs to be on an RX food for crystals and may need to be on it for a very long time, please listen.

I believe as  another poster had said that some cats are prone to crystals, etc,, maybe it's their breed, genetics, or they just can't concentrate their urine.

Do I like this food? NO, not with the corn, wheat gluten and crap but it had kept him clear of crystals for almost 10 months...

I thought I might be able to take him off this and feed him what my other boys are eating but this proves not a chance at this point and time perhaps much later down the road, maybe....

I will buy some of the Royal Canin s/o cans also, he is not a big fan of canned food but I wish he was..

So, he is still at the vet, waiting on trying to get an U/A...Poor Spook... I feel like it is my fault should never have let him  sneak any of the other food.....

It actually doesn't surprise me that your cat developed crystals if he was sneaking grain free dry food as many have found it has high mineral levels (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/224913/grain-free-bad-for-male-cats) we always advise to stick to wet with low phosphorus levels and always tell people to look at these levels in the food  and here is a handy chart (http://catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPhosphorus9-22-12.pdf). 

I am glad your kitty is doing better but I would highly suspect that he developed this problem because he was sneaking grain free dry and there was no monitoring of the phosphorus in his food. I would really advise you read Dr. Lisa Pierson's article on cat urinary health (http://catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth). I do hope the prescription diet you are feeding is the wet food because it really is a bad idea to feed a cat with urinary issues any dry food even if it is prescription. 

I am sorry that Spook is having urination issues again. Many vibes that he recovers quickly from this flare.

It is important however to understand the causes of struvite crystals in cats and how the Rx food works. Struvite crystals form in high (i.e. alkaline) urine pH. The Rx foods include an urine acidifier (methionine) which brings down the urine pH to a more normal range where struvite crystals are less likely to form. Carbohydrate based diets create a more alkaline urine, and meat-based diets naturally create a more acidic urine. This is why switching to an all canned, high animal protein, low carb diet works for many cats with struvite issues. This diet is not only more acidifying but also provides the moisture (80% vs 10% of dry) that keeps the system flushed out. http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth#Prescription_Diets

However, as you noted, this does not work for every cat. There are cats who need the additional methionine to bring the urine pH in the correct range. In these cases, I would recommend using the canned versions of Rx food (probably s/d which has the higher methionine amount) or adding a methionine supplement to the wet food of choice. In either case, urine pH MUST be monitored at home to ensure that the urine pH does not fall below norm, where calcium oxalate stones are more likely to form. Calcium oxalate stones cannot be dissolved and can only be surgically removed. It is interesting to note that calcium oxalate stones were more rare before the advent of Rx acidifying foods. It is also important to note that stress is known to be a factor in FLUTD cases, so diet is clearly not the only consideration. As you also noted, there may be other considerations as well such as genetics.

From http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/pages/bladder_stones_obstruct_web.pdf

 

In the past, the most common urolith type was struvite. However, in recent years, the number of calcium oxalate uroliths has increased so that now the two types occur with almost equal frequency. This is suspected to be due to changes in feline diet formulations, for the acidic diets that discourage struvite uroliths can actually encourage calcium oxalate uroliths to form in some cats.

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While I would not advise going against vet's orders, I do think it's important to be informed and discuss alternatives with your vet where appropriate.

My cat has also been on dry Royal Canin s/o moderate calorie for over a year now.    I do monitor his pH at home when I can (he doesn't make it easy!) and it does start to rise when I introduce a significant amount of any other food.    He's doing well on it overall and while I know it isn't optimal, having him be alive and me not being bankrupt are very big goals of mine.   I don't want to mess with success.   I do sometimes supplement as part of his diet small amounts of other canned foods but make sure that 3/4 of the time S/O is what he gets.    Also s/o in addition to the methionine also works by added salt to encourage more drinking.

Franksmom said:

It actually doesn't surprise me that your cat developed crystals if he was sneaking grain free dry food as many have found it has high mineral levels (http://www.thecatsite.com/t/224913/grain-free-bad-for-male-cats) we always advise to stick to wet with low phosphorus levels and always tell people to look at these levels in the food  and here is a handy chart (http://catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPhosphorus9-22-12.pdf). 

I am glad your kitty is doing better but I would highly suspect that he developed this problem because he was sneaking grain free dry and there was no monitoring of the phosphorus in his food. I would really advise you read Dr. Lisa Pierson's article on cat urinary health (http://catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth). I do hope the prescription diet you are feeding is the wet food because it really is a bad idea to feed a cat with urinary issues any dry food even if it is prescription. 

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He is not really big on the canned but I picked up 10 more cans today and I have to make them real soupy for him but he drinks up the liquid and doesn't eat it all.. At least he is getting some moisture..He gets about 75% dry and 25% canned as he simply refuses to eat only canned..He has done well on RC S/O no problems till I had to switch food for Boo b/c of his probable IBD...Oh and Spook also has a bacterial infection in both of his ears ! have to use a wash then an hour later use antibiotic drops in both of his ears, poor guy !

DonnaJean said:

He is not really big on the canned but I picked up 10 more cans today and I have to make them real soupy for him but he drinks up the liquid and doesn't eat it all.. At least he is getting some moisture..He gets about 75% dry and 25% canned as he simply refuses to eat only canned..He has done well on RC S/O no problems till I had to switch food for Boo b/c of his probable IBD...Oh and Spook also has a bacterial infection in both of his ears ! have to use a wash then an hour later use antibiotic drops in both of his ears, poor guy !

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Not sure if you have tried this but putting kibble on top of the wet along with treats is what worked for my very stubborn cat who would also only lick the gravy from canned food before. It took me a long time but he is on all wet now and so much better as he had GI issues. There is hope!

Oh and a water fountain does wonders for encouraging them to drink extra water too.

Sorry Spook is having both urinary  and ear problems.   Poor guy.  I sure hope he is better soon.  

I had the experience that my cat ended up with diabetes after being on a prescription food for struvite crystals (Hill's c/d)  for years.  He was on the dry c which is extremely high carb ; he would not eat the canned prescription food.     He actually still occasionally had crystals seen in his urine  ( I don't know why   -- maybe the carbs overrode the acidifier .   He was a cat who was very "carb-sensitive" in other ways. )

 Even when cut down to a very small amount that did not satisfy him at all,   he kept gaining weight.  and the vet even said "yeah that c/d really does pack it on them."    When he ended up diabetic is when I started to try to learn something for myself about feline nutrition.       I later "met" a lot of people online whose cats got diabetes after using that food long-term.      

I was nervous to take him off it since at least he had not had a blockage on it.   but his blood glucose was totally out of control,   and I did some research on crystals and diet,  and made the jump.    In his case he ended up doing fine on high protein/ low carb wet food.    Fortunately I did find wet food he liked in that category even if he had not liked the canned prescripton food.      I was thinking mostly about the carbs  and protein  as affecting both blood sugar and pH ....   and I was lucky very lucky it was not too hard to transition him to the wet, ,   since I did not realize at that time about the grain free dry causing crystals due to the high mineral content.   and with him having a tendency toward that he might have got blocked again!    

Well the vet called this morning and I can't believe it but he has no crystals, ph was 6.4 no infection!

I brought him home yesterday and put him upstairs away from the other two cats and he did not make frequent trips to the litter box last night. This morning there was a normal urine in the litter box but after being in the room with him for a few minutes he made two trips to the litter box and only a tiny amount came out.

My vet sends their u/a off to be tested they do not do it in house, they say they get more accurate results that way.

So anyone have anything similar like this with their cat ?

She sent me home with a pain med that also should help relax ....plus I have the ear wash and antibiotic.

after five days if this does not clear up or if things should get worse she said she may want to do some blood work....

I don't know he acted like he did before when he had crystals and I could have sworn that he had them again..

maewkaew said:

Sorry Spook is having both urinary  and ear problems.   Poor guy.  I sure hope he is better soon.  

I had the experience that my cat ended up with diabetes after being on a prescription food for struvite crystals (Hill's c/d)  for years.  He was on the dry c which is extremely high carb ; he would not eat the canned prescription food.     He actually still occasionally had crystals seen in his urine  ( I don't know why   -- maybe the carbs overrode the acidifier .   He was a cat who was very "carb-sensitive" in other ways. )

 Even when cut down to a very small amount that did not satisfy him at all,   he kept gaining weight.  and the vet even said "yeah that c/d really does pack it on them."    When he ended up diabetic is when I started to try to learn something for myself about feline nutrition.       I later "met" a lot of people online whose cats got diabetes after using that food long-term.      

I was nervous to take him off it since at least he had not had a blockage on it.   but his blood glucose was totally out of control,   and I did some research on crystals and diet,  and made the jump.    In his case he ended up doing fine on high protein/ low carb wet food.    Fortunately I did find wet food he liked in that category even if he had not liked the canned prescripton food.      I was thinking mostly about the carbs  and protein  as affecting both blood sugar and pH ....   and I was lucky very lucky it was not too hard to transition him to the wet, ,   since I did not realize at that time about the grain free dry causing crystals due to the high mineral content.   and with him having a tendency toward that he might have got blocked again!    

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what canned food do or did you feed him ? That is what I am afraid of , spook developing Diabetes on this food eventually

Bastfriend said:

Oh and a water fountain does wonders for encouraging them to drink extra water too.

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I have two of them plus several water bowls around the house.

Franksmom said:

Not sure if you have tried this but putting kibble on top of the wet along with treats is what worked for my very stubborn cat who would also only lick the gravy from canned food before. It took me a long time but he is on all wet now and so much better as he had GI issues. There is hope!

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tried it...He wants his canned to be real soupy, after the soup is gone he is done with it....LOL

DonnaJean said:

Well the vet called this morning and I can't believe it but he has no crystals, ph was 6.4 no infection!

I brought him home yesterday and put him upstairs away from the other two cats and he did not make frequent trips to the litter box last night. This morning there was a normal urine in the litter box but after being in the room with him for a few minutes he made two trips to the litter box and only a tiny amount came out.

My vet sends their u/a off to be tested they do not do it in house, they say they get more accurate results that way.

So anyone have anything similar like this with their cat ?

She sent me home with a pain med that also should help relax ....plus I have the ear wash and antibiotic.

after five days if this does not clear up or if things should get worse she said she may want to do some blood work....

I don't know he acted like he did before when he had crystals and I could have sworn that he had them again..

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He could have cystitis (bladder inflammation of unknown cause) which is causing the discomfort and tiny amounts of urine. Any blood in the urine? Out of curiosity, what was the pain med your vet gave you? Just hoping it's not Metacam/meloxicam which a lot of vets seem to like to give for cystitis despite the FDA label which says it should be used only once on cats, usually during surgery.

I wonder if it is anxiety, stress induced ...He does not like the last cat I brought in over a year ago...

He is a quiet cat, gets real nervous easily and hides when the other cat is around..

I may have to have him tested for other things and if that comes back fine consider what I did not want to do, something for anxiety..

I have the feliway comfort zone, really doesn't do much, I had rescue remedy, nothing, pet naturals of vermont calming, nothing.

I put the other cat upstairs at night so Spook can have some peace and quiet as "peanut" is a little aggressive and will attack Spook out the blue.

Maybe I should look into a medication for Peanut  he plays too rough and likes to bite.....just thinking.....

vball91 said:

He could have cystitis (bladder inflammation of unknown cause) which is causing the discomfort and tiny amounts of urine. Any blood in the urine? Out of curiosity, what was the pain med your vet gave you? Just hoping it's not Metacam/meloxicam which a lot of vets seem to like to give for cystitis despite the FDA label which says it should be used only once on cats, usually during surgery.

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No blood in the urine, urine looked good..Pain med is Buprenex, liquid..

I have Interstitial cystitis so I know all about painful bladder...Can't have caffeine, chocolate, anything acidic....

Buprenex is a great pain med for cats. Stress can definitely be a trigger for nervous/anxious kitties. It sounds like you are addressing that where you can. I have heard that one on one time, especially play time and a "safe" place, whether high or low can help with stress.

I just don't know what to do if "stress" is the big issue here... I can't get rid of Peanut, although he is a little too aggressive and likes to intimidate.

The vet and I actually talked about a medication for Peanut to calm him down and work on the aggressiveness. I hate using medications but this has been a year and things between Spook and him are no better.. Peanut also will get too aggressive with Boo but Boo fights back , Spook just runs and hides...

Sounds like  you are an 'educated consumer' and are researching the issues involved.
Ritz (female) has FLUTD; she is prone to stress induced UTIs.  Shame that the Feliway and Rescue Remedy didn't work for your cat; it seems to help Ritz somewhat. Per the recommendation of one of the members of this site, I have also been adding theanine to Ritz' food (I fed raw).   I haven't noticed much of a difference; I think the RR and Feliway works better for my cat.

I do think play time and cuddle time helps too; Ritz loves belly rubs, hates being picked up.

For other poster's information, UTIs can be caused by a bacterial infection, such as e-coli.  That bacteria is excrete through feces, the cat licks his/her anus and then his uretha/vagina, and bingo:  UTI.

I thought Ritz only peeing once a day was due to side effect of Prozac (for FHS).  But when I tappered her off of the Prozac, she continued to pee only once a day.  And then one day I came home and she didn't want to eat and she just didn't act herself, so I took her to the vets.  Surprisingly to me, her pH was 6.0 (it had been hovering around 6.6) and no crystals.  Bacteria, yes; crystals, no.

Good luck; vibes for Spook.

Ritz said:

Sounds like  you are an 'educated consumer' and are researching the issues involved.
Ritz (female) has FLUTD; she is prone to stress induced UTIs.  Shame that the Feliway and Rescue Remedy didn't work for your cat; it seems to help Ritz somewhat. Per the recommendation of one of the members of this site, I have also been adding theanine to Ritz' food (I fed raw).   I haven't noticed much of a difference; I think the RR and Feliway works better for my cat.

I do think play time and cuddle time helps too; Ritz loves belly rubs, hates being picked up.

For other poster's information, UTIs can be caused by a bacterial infection, such as e-coli.  That bacteria is excrete through feces, the cat licks his/her anus and then his uretha/vagina, and bingo:  UTI.

I thought Ritz only peeing once a day was due to side effect of Prozac (for FHS).  But when I tappered her off of the Prozac, she continued to pee only once a day.  And then one day I came home and she didn't want to eat and she just didn't act herself, so I took her to the vets.  Surprisingly to me, her pH was 6.0 (it had been hovering around 6.6) and no crystals.  Bacteria, yes; crystals, no.

Good luck; vibes for Spook.

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Every cat that I have had ended up being "special" needs ..... I have done so much research on CRF, IBD, Diabetes, etc... over the years ...

Seriously I want to get Spook off of this Royal Canin S/O...Too many carbs, too many cheap fillers, not happy at all with this RX food.

I would like their diets to be at least 75% MOIST AND USE DRY AS A TREAT OR  in times when I can't be home in time to feed canned.

I had a cat once who was on an RX dry and wet for Diabetes and when I removed the dry and went to strictlt low carb grain free canned she became a non-Diabetic.

So, what to do- Do I start trying to transition Spook over to a grain free, low carb canned and take him completely off the Royal Canin S/O... So confusing...

Where did this bacterial infection in both of his ears come from ? Could this be from all the grains and wheat gluten in his RX food ? Maybe he is building an Allergen from the food?

I worry about his weight, he is a big cat, big built, long in length..he currently weighs 14 lbs and I don't want him weighing anymore.....

I wonder if the Nature's Variety Instinct LID canned would be a good grain free food to start him on ? I believe it is low in ash, I don't know about the magnesium levels or the phosphorus levels but as I understand it it isn't the magnesium levels and such that cause Struvite crystals and such.

Any thoughts? I tried NVinstinct Raw bites, the only one who would eat them was Peanut, my aggressive and rowdy cat...so raw is out of the question for my other two boys..

Because he likes gravy you might want to start with the new pride line of natures variety but check the mineral content. The pate also does have a lot of gravy and you could try blending it was water to make it more like gravy.