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Creating a home-cooked resources sticky
- Thread starter ldg
- Start Date
Great idea!
For both the cooked and raw resources!
For both the cooked and raw resources!
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #43
Actually, there are a number of links that are important for both.
For instance, the entire "Why not more "standard" commercial diets" section, Transition links, and some of the Additional Resources (the NRC, for instance) don't really belong in "raw" or "cooked" but are good resources for people considering alternatives to traditional store-bought foods.
So perhaps there should be three stickies. Not quite sure what the "combo" one should be called. Any ideas?
For instance, the entire "Why not more "standard" commercial diets" section, Transition links, and some of the Additional Resources (the NRC, for instance) don't really belong in "raw" or "cooked" but are good resources for people considering alternatives to traditional store-bought foods.
So perhaps there should be three stickies. Not quite sure what the "combo" one should be called. Any ideas?
Are people going to confuse "homemade" and "home-cooked"? How about "do-it-yourself cat food" or "home-prepared cat food" instead of "homemade cat food"?
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #45
I'm not sure what you're suggesting?
Two resource threads for stickies so far:
Raw Food Resources (needs editing)
Cooked Food Resources (in-the-works in this thread :lol3: )
Are you suggesting the third one, that will have resources applicable to BOTH, be called Do-It-Yourself Cat Food? :dk:
Because the combo sticky isn't really about making food whether cooked or raw. It's more general nutritional & transition resources, as these apply equally to any diet.
Two resource threads for stickies so far:
Raw Food Resources (needs editing)
Cooked Food Resources (in-the-works in this thread :lol3: )
Are you suggesting the third one, that will have resources applicable to BOTH, be called Do-It-Yourself Cat Food? :dk:
Because the combo sticky isn't really about making food whether cooked or raw. It's more general nutritional & transition resources, as these apply equally to any diet.
Yes, those were suggestions for the combo, but if you're going for general nutrition and transition, there must be far better ones. Maybe something with the word "balance" in it?
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #47
Maybe we should just start another thread, so the idea for the 3rd sticky doesn't get lost in this one. I'll pull the info out of the current raw resources thread and add the info that's come up in our discussions of the potential stickies that are applicable to both raw and cooked, and maybe a name will better present itself, once we see what the resources are.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #48
OK, revised for current threads and suggestions:
Cooked Food Resources
Recipes
One very easy option is to start with meat or meat and organs and add a commercially available premix of nutritional supplements that will make the food nutritionally balanced.
By Dr. Donald Strombeck: http://www.dogcathomeprepareddiet.com/feeding_a_normal_dog_or_cat.html#cats
Donald R. Strombeck, DVM, PhD, is Professor Emeritus, University of California, Davis, School of Veterinary Medicine, and an honorary member of the College of Veterinary Internal Medicine. He is widely published and has received numerous awards. The home page: http://www.dogcathomeprepareddiet.com/
From TCFeline (a manufacturer of Premixes) http://tcfeline.com/2010/08/16/cooked-meat/
At IBD kitties: http://www.ibdkitties.net/Homecooked.html (requires a grinder)
TCS home-cooked recipes & discussion:
Cooked Recipes Thread
My first cooked chicken cat food!
Nutritional Supplements (Premixes)
Note: some are designed to make just meat complete; others require liver and/or a source of calcium to make the recipes balanced & complete. For most, a source of fiber is optional (which can be important for IBD kitties or as a method to lower fat for specific medical reasons). Some of these were designed with raw feeding in mind, but provide appropriate supplemental nutrition for home cooked food. Please ensure you purchase the correct supplement for the recipe you intend to use.
Alnutrin http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/
Balance IT https://secure.balanceit.com/
Call of the Wild http://www.wysong.net/products/cotw-dog-cat-supplement.php
TCfeline http://tcfeline.com/
U-Stew http://www.knowbetterpetfood.com/cat_food_u-stew
Alnutrin and Balance IT have online calculators and recipes.
Sources of Calcium
Warning: Never feed cooked bones, even if ground; these can splinter and harm your cats.
Most home-cooked recipes will include either bone meal, calcium carbonate, or eggshell.
If you want to create your own diet using real bone, this thread describes a method that does not require a grinder, just a pressure cooker and food processor: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/261751/bone-question-dr-piersons-ground-recipe
If you want to use a source of bone other than bone meal, there is a freeze dried bone option. It is called Microcrystalline Calcium Hydroxyapatite (MCHA). In the U.S., there is only one supplement available that has no other ingredients. It is manufactured by NOW, and is called just "NOW calcium hydroxyapatite." Note that MCHA costs considerably more to use than bone meal or eggshell powder.
How to balance meat (and organ) for just the calcium component of the diet using eggshell or MCHA: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263426/...hydroxyapatite-to-balance-meat-or-meat-organs
Impact of Cooking
Even for carnivores, cooked meat is easily digestible:
Energetic significance of cooking. "While cooking has long been argued to improve the diet, the nature of the improvement has not been
well defined. As a result, the evolutionary significance of cooking has variously been proposed as being substantial or relatively trivial. In this paper, we evaluate the hypothesis that an important and consistent effect of cooking food is a rise in its net energy value." Carmody & Wrangham 2009. The Energetic Significance of Cooking, Jour Hum Evol 57 (2009) 379–391.
Nutrient Retention, various cooking methods (PDF file). USDA Table of Nutrient Retention Factors http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/12354500/Data/retn/retn06.pdf
Summary table of USDA Nutrient Retention Factors: http://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/processing
Discussion of digestive enzymes in cooked vs raw foods. The article is not about pet foods, but provides balanced information, and something to consider: because it requires fewer calories to digest cooked food, cats fed home cooked food may need less food than cats fed homemade raw food: http://www.jonbarron.org/article/food-raw-versus-cooked[/quote]
Food Safety & Proper Cooking Temperatures
Revised Recommended Cooking Temperatures, FoodSafety.gov: http://www.foodsafety.gov/blog/meat_temperatures.html
How to keep your food safe: http://www.epicurious.com/articlesguides/howtocook/primers/foodsafetymeatpoultry
New York Times article, Bending the Rules on Bacteria, with information about reheating previously cooked food.
Books & Other Resources
Some books with cooked recipes people could take a look at to see what they think:
The Ultimate Pet Food Guide: Everything You Need to Know about Feeding Your Dog or Cat The recipes are heavy on seafood, IMO, and the author is a dog trainer, not a vet. Nutrition info is given in simple terms.
Dinner PAWsible: A cookbook for healthy, nutritious meals for cats and dogs
The recipes are in cups, tablespoons, etc., and in grams, with calorie counts and indications for calcium supplements or ground eggshell. They have veggies and some grains like brown rice. Ground sunflower seeds are used a lot. Note that one of the authors, Susan Thixton, runs the Truth About Pet Food site.
Both books are available in paperback or as Kindle e-books. You don't have to have a Kindle to read them, as you can download a free Kindle app for your PC, tablet or smartphone.
Add a link to the third "combo" sticky in the forum....when it has a name and has been created, if it is created.
Cooked Food Resources
Recipes
One very easy option is to start with meat or meat and organs and add a commercially available premix of nutritional supplements that will make the food nutritionally balanced.
By Dr. Donald Strombeck: http://www.dogcathomeprepareddiet.com/feeding_a_normal_dog_or_cat.html#cats
Donald R. Strombeck, DVM, PhD, is Professor Emeritus, University of California, Davis, School of Veterinary Medicine, and an honorary member of the College of Veterinary Internal Medicine. He is widely published and has received numerous awards. The home page: http://www.dogcathomeprepareddiet.com/
From TCFeline (a manufacturer of Premixes) http://tcfeline.com/2010/08/16/cooked-meat/
At IBD kitties: http://www.ibdkitties.net/Homecooked.html (requires a grinder)
TCS home-cooked recipes & discussion:
Cooked Recipes Thread
My first cooked chicken cat food!
Nutritional Supplements (Premixes)
Note: some are designed to make just meat complete; others require liver and/or a source of calcium to make the recipes balanced & complete. For most, a source of fiber is optional (which can be important for IBD kitties or as a method to lower fat for specific medical reasons). Some of these were designed with raw feeding in mind, but provide appropriate supplemental nutrition for home cooked food. Please ensure you purchase the correct supplement for the recipe you intend to use.
Alnutrin http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/
Balance IT https://secure.balanceit.com/
Call of the Wild http://www.wysong.net/products/cotw-dog-cat-supplement.php
TCfeline http://tcfeline.com/
U-Stew http://www.knowbetterpetfood.com/cat_food_u-stew
Alnutrin and Balance IT have online calculators and recipes.
Sources of Calcium
Warning: Never feed cooked bones, even if ground; these can splinter and harm your cats.
Most home-cooked recipes will include either bone meal, calcium carbonate, or eggshell.
If you want to create your own diet using real bone, this thread describes a method that does not require a grinder, just a pressure cooker and food processor: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/261751/bone-question-dr-piersons-ground-recipe
If you want to use a source of bone other than bone meal, there is a freeze dried bone option. It is called Microcrystalline Calcium Hydroxyapatite (MCHA). In the U.S., there is only one supplement available that has no other ingredients. It is manufactured by NOW, and is called just "NOW calcium hydroxyapatite." Note that MCHA costs considerably more to use than bone meal or eggshell powder.
How to balance meat (and organ) for just the calcium component of the diet using eggshell or MCHA: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263426/...hydroxyapatite-to-balance-meat-or-meat-organs
Impact of Cooking
Even for carnivores, cooked meat is easily digestible:
Kerr et al. 2012. Apparent total tract energy and macronutrient digestibility and fecal fermentative end-product concentrations of domestic cats fed extruded, raw beef-based, and cooked beef-based diets, J. Anim. Sci. 2012. 90:515–522 (Full Report) Note that one of the authors works for Natura Pet Products, part of Proctor & Gamble.
Bobeck et al. 2007. Cooking and grinding reduces the cost of meat digestion, Comp Biochem Physiol A Mol Integr Physiol. 2007 Nov;148(3):651-6. Epub 2007 Aug 16. (Abstract only)
Bobeck et al. 2007. Cooking and grinding reduces the cost of meat digestion, Comp Biochem Physiol A Mol Integr Physiol. 2007 Nov;148(3):651-6. Epub 2007 Aug 16. (Abstract only)
Energetic significance of cooking. "While cooking has long been argued to improve the diet, the nature of the improvement has not been
well defined. As a result, the evolutionary significance of cooking has variously been proposed as being substantial or relatively trivial. In this paper, we evaluate the hypothesis that an important and consistent effect of cooking food is a rise in its net energy value." Carmody & Wrangham 2009. The Energetic Significance of Cooking, Jour Hum Evol 57 (2009) 379–391.
Nutrient Retention, various cooking methods (PDF file). USDA Table of Nutrient Retention Factors http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/12354500/Data/retn/retn06.pdf
Summary table of USDA Nutrient Retention Factors: http://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/processing
Discussion of digestive enzymes in cooked vs raw foods. The article is not about pet foods, but provides balanced information, and something to consider: because it requires fewer calories to digest cooked food, cats fed home cooked food may need less food than cats fed homemade raw food: http://www.jonbarron.org/article/food-raw-versus-cooked[/quote]
Food Safety & Proper Cooking Temperatures
Revised Recommended Cooking Temperatures, FoodSafety.gov: http://www.foodsafety.gov/blog/meat_temperatures.html
How to keep your food safe: http://www.epicurious.com/articlesguides/howtocook/primers/foodsafetymeatpoultry
New York Times article, Bending the Rules on Bacteria, with information about reheating previously cooked food.
Books & Other Resources
Some books with cooked recipes people could take a look at to see what they think:
The Ultimate Pet Food Guide: Everything You Need to Know about Feeding Your Dog or Cat The recipes are heavy on seafood, IMO, and the author is a dog trainer, not a vet. Nutrition info is given in simple terms.
Dinner PAWsible: A cookbook for healthy, nutritious meals for cats and dogs
The recipes are in cups, tablespoons, etc., and in grams, with calorie counts and indications for calcium supplements or ground eggshell. They have veggies and some grains like brown rice. Ground sunflower seeds are used a lot. Note that one of the authors, Susan Thixton, runs the Truth About Pet Food site.
Both books are available in paperback or as Kindle e-books. You don't have to have a Kindle to read them, as you can download a free Kindle app for your PC, tablet or smartphone.
Add a link to the third "combo" sticky in the forum....when it has a name and has been created, if it is created.
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I'm going to ask that this link be removed:
"Discussion of digestive enzymes in cooked vs raw foods. The article is not about pet foods, but provides balanced information, and something to consider: because it requires fewer calories to digest cooked food, cats fed home cooked food may need less food than cats fed homemade raw food: http://www.jonbarron.org/article/food-raw-versus-cooked[/quote]"
It presents a lot of statements as fact but doesn't provide a single reference to back up any of them. If you read the first paragraph I think it is clear it isn't trying to present a balanced view at all. It is in fact advocating for including raw foods in our diet and is slanted towards justifying that view. And the author has no credentials that warrant just taking his words at face value. He just has an online business selling natural supplements.
"Discussion of digestive enzymes in cooked vs raw foods. The article is not about pet foods, but provides balanced information, and something to consider: because it requires fewer calories to digest cooked food, cats fed home cooked food may need less food than cats fed homemade raw food: http://www.jonbarron.org/article/food-raw-versus-cooked[/quote]"
It presents a lot of statements as fact but doesn't provide a single reference to back up any of them. If you read the first paragraph I think it is clear it isn't trying to present a balanced view at all. It is in fact advocating for including raw foods in our diet and is slanted towards justifying that view. And the author has no credentials that warrant just taking his words at face value. He just has an online business selling natural supplements.
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I also think this link should be removed:
"Summary table of USDA Nutrient Retention Factors: http://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/processing"
It isn't even close to being a faithful summary of the USDA retention data. It claims to show the "typical maximum nutrient losses" and yet the values are misleadingly high. For instance, they show a value of 70% loss for total folate. But if you look at the actual USDA data you find that of the 276 entries only 9 show folate retention of only 30% and those are for legumes and sausage. Hardly relevant to creating a pet food.
The link to the actual USDA data is far more useful.
"Summary table of USDA Nutrient Retention Factors: http://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/processing"
It isn't even close to being a faithful summary of the USDA retention data. It claims to show the "typical maximum nutrient losses" and yet the values are misleadingly high. For instance, they show a value of 70% loss for total folate. But if you look at the actual USDA data you find that of the 276 entries only 9 show folate retention of only 30% and those are for legumes and sausage. Hardly relevant to creating a pet food.
The link to the actual USDA data is far more useful.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #52
THANK YOU for taking the time to go through all the links.
On the removal of the enzyme piece, I guess we can just note before the USDA retention data link (following the energetic significance of cooking links) that raw feeders have found that they typically need to feed less food than their kitties were eating on canned; as cooked food requires less energy to digest it, those feeding home cooked may find that raw feeding guidelines for amounts to feed may not be similar for home cooked. ?????
On the removal of the enzyme piece, I guess we can just note before the USDA retention data link (following the energetic significance of cooking links) that raw feeders have found that they typically need to feed less food than their kitties were eating on canned; as cooked food requires less energy to digest it, those feeding home cooked may find that raw feeding guidelines for amounts to feed may not be similar for home cooked. ?????
I don't really see the need to say anything like that at all. First, it's only speculation. We don't know that cats eating a cooked homemade food require less than raw fed cats. Second, I think it's pretty hopeless to try to made any general statement about how much a cat eating any particular food is going to need. It is just dependent on too many factors.
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #54
OK. The notice doesn't say that home cooked WILL require less. I felt it was something worth noting despite all the variables; if others don't agree, it's not necessary to include.
I think it would be good to include some kind of general guideline (or at least observations) for cooked food feeding. As with raw, the amounts fed will be less than on an all-canned diet. How much less is very dependent on individual factors, but there should be something to note that it will be less food than they are used to feeding, so that they don't freak out about their cats not eating enough.
How do you know that???
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #57
Why shouldn't we expect it to be? If I fed my cats the same amount of raw as they were eating canned, they'd all be beach balls. The food is more bioavailable, or takes less energy to digest so they burn less calories or something. All indications are that it should be the same with cooked. So why shouldn't people be alerted that they MAY need to feed less than they were on canned? I really can't see what the problem is with this - so they at least pay attention, or aren't freaked out about their kitties not eating enough. That one ounce of food in Flowerbelle's bowl looked so darn pitiful...
In fact, all of my cats gained weight at first. I had to keep scaling down the amount they were fed.
In fact, all of my cats gained weight at first. I had to keep scaling down the amount they were fed.
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"Expect". "Should be".
It's speculation, not fact. Don't state it as fact. If you feel you have to state it state it as speculation. IMO speculation has no place in the main post of the thread. There should only be solid information there.
What if the speculation is wrong and people feed less based on the information in that post. Then the kitties are being starved.
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #59
Well obviously the idea isn't that kitties be starved. And nothing is being stated as fact. It's simply information that prepares people for the idea that they may need to adjust the amount of food being fed. I don't think that falls into the category of speculation. I think it is information that can help people keep an eye on something they might not otherwise pay as close attention to if they didn't know to look out for it.
I was about to say the say thing as mschauer. Stick with the 2 - 4% ratio. There are far too many variables in food, raw, cooked, canned...to qualify/specify ounces/grams served. Bone weight, water added, fat percentage, cat metabolism, cat health...all play a factor.
You are compiling a beautiful collection of resources based on nutritional science. Best to keep it that way in the sticky, then people can request personal guidance along the way.
You are compiling a beautiful collection of resources based on nutritional science. Best to keep it that way in the sticky, then people can request personal guidance along the way.
