Kibble/Wet/Raw

Carolina said:

Bluebo, I am sorry you feel this way, I really am. I don't see a conspiracy, I really don't.
Unfortunately, I can't change the way you feel.....

We all have a life..... You bet I work full time.... and you wouldn't believe HOW FULL time my load is. I don't know if you are aware, but I actually travel 3 weeks, sometimes 4 weeks out of the month for work. Yes.... While I don't have kids due to being single and somewhat choosing a career that requires a lot of traveling instead..... I do have a life..... And so do all the others.....

We feed our cats, but we don't stop living. We don't devote our lives to our cats, and forget about the rest as you are implying here......

We all have our priorities.... Some have kids, husbands, husbands and kids, husbands and kids and work..... You are not alone on that one.....

You are not alone on having a cat that refuses to eat - many of us have that, including me.

Again, to have you feel a different way about us.... I mean... what can I say? For what I can see, it is how you feel.... It seems to me it is a matter of perspective here.... No one is trying to attack you, no one is looking down on you.... Yet you feel attacked and you feel looked down upon

I don't know how to change that, unless you start looking at things a little different here.... Because I promise you, the fact is, no one is doing that to you even though you are perceving it that way.

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One thing we should all remember is this.  When we post on an open forum, there are going to be differences of opinion.  The bottom line is, make your own decision based on your own experience.  When Muffin was going through his cancer surgery in May and his appetite disappeared, I received suggestions about all kinds of food to shift him too, raw being one of them.  While I appreciated the difference suggestions, I made my own decision with my vet's help since there was a history of stones to be considered.  We each know our own cats better than anyone who gives advice here. ln my case, my poor Muffin had been through such a major surgery, I didn't want to rock the boat too much.  We finally found a wet food for urinary help from the vet's office he would eat and that is what he eats now.  From time to time he holds out for the dry prescription kibble which he was raised on.  It works for my cat and he is doing well.  Do I think it is the best diet for him, not sure, but it is working.  We all have to sift the advice with a grain of salt and then make  our decision.

:nod:

The site is dedicated to education and the sharing of experience and information. Some members may have better communication skills than others. But I simply cannot concur that anyone here attempts to make anyone feel guilty for feeding kibble. Too many people have lost pets to diet-related issues, and they feel strongly about the subject. :heart2:

But IMO, stating an opinion that some kibble is akin to feeding a McDonald's diet isn't accusing someone of being a bad pet parent. I personally prefer comparing feeding exclusively kibble to feeding dry cereal. Some cereals are relatively healthy, being less processed and made with whole grains; other cereals are quite unhealthy. Either way, they come with no moisture, and that isn't judgment, that is simply a fact. :dk:

I also just searched the forums for the word "crapple," because I've never seen it used. The only thread that turns up with that word in a search is this one. :dk:

I choose to inform people about the benefits of an all canned diet because there are many publications published in animal nutrition and veterinary peer review journals documenting health problems associated with feeding exclusively dry food - and we've seen time and time again the result of it here on TCS. Of course, many cats live long healthy lives on just kibble. But too many people are left with the guilt of "If only I'd known," when their kitty is one of the ones for whom that all kibble diet didn't work out.

Most people post in the nutrition forum because they are looking for help in how to improve their cats' diet, and that is taken as a given when people reply with information. In the health forum, diet gets mentioned frequently because diet is the foundation of health, impacts the immune system, and many health problems are directly related to diet. I mention raw as an option to people because when I first started working with cats and facing our first health issues, I didn't even know raw was a feeding option. I followed my vet's advice, not even thinking about the concept of "species appropriate" and the impact diet has on health. People will - and should - choose to feed whatever diet works for them, their lifestyle, their budget, and their cat(s). But I will also encourage people to learn so they can make an informed choice. Very sadly, not all vets are a good source for that information.

I'm sorry that things haven't worked out as you hoped or expected. But I just read through your entire "I give up thread." There is not one single instance of anyone being critical. In one of your posts you end it with "Thanks guys for the help but I have thrown in the towel... lol! He will be eating kibble. Flame away!" You lead with expectations of negativity. Yet not one single person was critical, and no one flamed. We simply don't do that here. You got nothing but suggestions and ideas.

I also just read through your How do you get your cat onto a different wet food? thread. Again - nothing but support, ideas and advice. :dk:

Yes, some people - and I'm sure me at times - could be more sensitive in how they communicate information. But some people feel guilty and read more into what's being written than what's being said.

The fact is that TCS has one of the most actively moderated boards on the internet. The site is quite strict about personal attacks and manner of posting. If you think someone is offensive in their manner of posting, please flag the post at issue as offensive so the moderators can manage the problem.

I basically have nothing more to say...
I have stated why I feel the way I do and I can't convey it any more straight forward then I already have.
When there is a comparison between what I feed my cat and McDonalds, candy, junk food, cereal etc, then I am offended. I'm not offended because I am a lazy person that prefers dry for my own convenience, I am offended because I have tried my utmost to get him onto a DIFFERENT diet with little success. There will be others in the same position as I am (attempting to convert onto wet and being relatively unsuccessful) and I would hate for them to feel like I do when people make these junk food references.
Is there not another way of stating that you disagree with kibble without demeaning it? I mean I think that maybe saying "crapple" isn't meant to demean or belittle the person using it but it DOES feel like it. People ARE on here to educate themselves NOT to be belittled into doing the right thing. Making any sense?
We could all say "wet is ideal and if you could possibly make the switch that would be the best for the cat" (which most members do, I'm not denying that) instead of- "people shouldnt feed this junk to their cats" (which a few members have said- not quoting).

LDG said:

:nod:
The site is dedicated to education and the sharing of experience and information. Some members may have better communication skills than others. But I simply cannot concur that anyone here attempts to make anyone feel guilty for feeding kibble. Too many people have lost pets to diet-related issues, and they feel strongly about the subject. :heart2:
But IMO, stating an opinion that some kibble is akin to feeding a McDonald's diet isn't accusing someone of being a bad pet parent. I personally prefer comparing feeding exclusively kibble to feeding dry cereal. Some cereals are relatively healthy, being less processed and made with whole grains; other cereals are quite unhealthy. Either way, they come with no moisture, and that isn't judgment, that is simply a fact. :dk:
I also just searched the forums for the word "crapple," because I've never seen it used. The only thread that turns up with that word in a search is this one. :dk:
I choose to inform people about the benefits of an all canned diet because there are many publications published in animal nutrition and veterinary peer review journals documenting health problems associated with feeding exclusively dry food - and we've seen time and time again the result of it here on TCS. Of course, many cats live long healthy lives on just kibble. But too many people are left with the guilt of "If only I'd known," when their kitty is one of the ones for whom that all kibble diet didn't work out.
Most people post in the nutrition forum because they are looking for help in how to improve their cats' diet, and that is taken as a given when people reply with information. In the health forum, diet gets mentioned frequently because diet is the foundation of health, impacts the immune system, and many health problems are directly related to diet. I mention raw as an option to people because when I first started working with cats and facing our first health issues, I didn't even know raw was a feeding option. I followed my vet's advice, not even thinking about the concept of "species appropriate" and the impact diet has on health. People will - and should - choose to feed whatever diet works for them, their lifestyle, their budget, and their cat(s). But I will also encourage people to learn so they can make an informed choice. Very sadly, not all vets are a good source for that information.
I'm sorry that things haven't worked out as you hoped or expected. But I just read through your entire "I give up thread." There is not one single instance of anyone being critical. In one of your posts you end it with "Thanks guys for the help but I have thrown in the towel... lol! He will be eating kibble. Flame away!" You lead with expectations of negativity. Yet not one single person was critical, and no one flamed. We simply don't do that here. You got nothing but suggestions and ideas.
I also just read through your How do you get your cat onto a different wet food? thread. Again - nothing but support, ideas and advice. :dk:
Yes, some people - and I'm sure me at times - could be more sensitive in how they communicate information. But some people feel guilty and read more into what's written than what's being said.
The fact is that TCS has one of the most actively moderated boards on the internet. The site is quite strict about personal attacks and manner of posting. If you think someone is offensive in their manner of posting, please flag the post at issue as offensive so the moderators can manage the problem.

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You know.... It's interesting to me when I stop to think about the taboo of raw....
It is perfectly acceptable to offer suggestions on how to find a better, healthier kibble..... Canned, of course it is perfectly fine..... But at the moment that a cat has allergies, or IBD, or urinary issues.... Issues that could benefit from raw - simply another option from canned..... It easily becomes a taboo.
Why? I fail to understand why.
Raw is a diet that can easily be used to control allergies. It has proven benefits for IBD. It more species appropriate than any other.... and most importantly, it is a choice - just like kibbles, like canned.... it is a choice worthy knowing and contemplating.
Why should raw be a taboo?

Sometimes I am almost afraid to post..... I feel almost like Harry Potter who is afraid to mention Lord Voldemort's name. And quite frankly, I don't see a reason why. It is meat. Cats have been eating meat since cats have been cats. Before any diet was in the market, cats ate meat. IMHO, raw shouldn't be a taboo..... and we should be able to suggest it freely..... because like caned, like a better kibble..... there are benefits to the diet.... and I think pet parents shoudl know about it..... :dk:

It is not about making anyone feel guilty.... Not about making anyone feel bad..... But when I see a cat suffering with an issue that could be prevented and or even solved with diet..... I don't see a reason why we shouldn't suggest at least the thought of it.....
Look.... You can get a diabetic person and pump up insulin day in and day out - but that person will still need a GOOD diet to survive - the same concept applies to cats. And that's the education that we are talking about here.
Sure you can go on feeding high carbs kibbles to that diabetic cat.... But it will not be a good diet..... Is it about guilting the parent? Nope - it is about educating the parent into making the best choice for that cat.
Sometimes that parent will feel guilty? Sure - it might happen. I DID. I felt guilty for feeding Bugsy a diet that made him sick for years - and note, that was prescription, with a vet's guidance. What fixed Bugsy? Raw.
Where did I learn about Raw?
Right here at TCS. It saved his life - plain and simple.
On the same token, I have seen first hand cats very close to me die terrible deaths that could be easily prevented had they been on canned or on raw. But their parents chose kibbles. And even prescription kibbles wouldn't save them.
I agree that no one knows our pets better than we do. I agree with that 100%.
I also have learned enough here at TCS to keep a very open mind to learn from others, then discuss it with my vet..... and guess what - if I don't agree with my vet, I stick to my instincts and some very good advices I have received here... Luckily I have a GREAT vet with a very open mind who will work with me.... But my mind is as open as it can be to learn here at TCS..... the amount of knowledge I have gotten here has been tremendous.
I am sorry to see that some might not see the value in that.... Because there are not that many sites out there with the combined knowledge power that we can find here. It is really hard to beat. :nod:

bluebo said:

I basically have nothing more to say...
I have stated why I feel the way I do and I can't convey it any more straight forward then I already have.
When there is a comparison between what I feed my cat and McDonalds, candy, junk food, cereal etc, then I am offended. I'm not offended because I am a lazy person that prefers dry for my own convenience, I am offended because I have tried my utmost to get him onto a DIFFERENT diet with little success. There will be others in the same position as I am (attempting to convert onto wet and being relatively unsuccessful) and I would hate for them to feel like I do when people make these junk food references.
Is there not another way of stating that you disagree with kibble without demeaning it? I mean I think that maybe saying "crapple" isn't meant to demean or belittle the person using it but it DOES feel like it. People ARE on here to educate themselves NOT to be belittled into doing the right thing. Making any sense?
We could all say "wet is ideal and if you could possibly make the switch that would be the best for the cat" (which most members do, I'm not denying that) instead of- "people shouldnt feed this junk to their cats" (which a few members have said- not quoting).

Click to expand...

Bluebo - question - would you be willing to let us to go all the way to the beginning, back to the basis of your introduction, and let us help you out? Are you open to it?
I know that together we can do it...... are you up to?

 being a newbie i want to say i appreciate everyone's input. people have different experiences and insight which can broaden a person's outlook. i'm not comfortable with feeding my kitties a raw diet but support anyone who does. i'm trying to transition my older cat kids to a wet/canned diet but find that only one cat is receptive; the other refuses to eat anything but dry. i hope she comes around eventually. however, if she doesn't, then i'll just have to accept the situation. i'm lucky that my kitten that i recently adopted from the spca only eats wet and i hope this stays like this as she grows up. i guess we're all doing the best we can. no situation is perfect. i joined this forum to be a better "mom" to my cat kids and benefit from other people's experiences and hopefully share some of mine. that we're all here trying to do our best is admirable!!! i hope this was okay to write. thank you for reading...

jlc20m    

Carolina said:

You know.... It's interesting to me when I stop to think about the taboo of raw....
It is perfectly acceptable to offer suggestions on how to find a better, healthier kibble..... Canned, of course it is perfectly fine..... But at the moment that a cat has allergies, or IBD, or urinary issues.... Issues that could benefit from raw - simply another option from canned..... It easily becomes a taboo.
Why? I fail to understand why.
Raw is a diet that can easily be used to control allergies. It has proven benefits for IBD. It more species appropriate than any other.... and most importantly, it is a choice - just like kibbles, like canned.... it is a choice worthy knowing and contemplating.
Why should raw be a taboo?
Sometimes I am almost afraid to post..... I feel almost like Harry Potter who is afraid to mention Lord Voldemort's name. And quite frankly, I don't see a reason why. It is meat. Cats have been eating meat since cats have been cats. Before any diet was in the market, cats ate meat. IMHO, raw shouldn't be a taboo..... and we should be able to suggest it freely..... because like caned, like a better kibble..... there are benefits to the diet.... and I think pet parents shoudl know about it..... :dk:
It is not about making anyone feel guilty.... Not about making anyone feel bad..... But when I see a cat suffering with an issue that could be prevented and or even solved with diet..... I don't see a reason why we shouldn't suggest at least the thought of it.....
Look.... You can get a diabetic person and pump up insulin day in and day out - but that person will still need a GOOD diet to survive - the same concept applies to cats. And that's the education that we are talking about here.
Sure you can go on feeding high carbs kibbles to that diabetic cat.... But it will not be a good diet..... Is it about guilting the parent? Nope - it is about educating the parent into making the best choice for that cat.
Sometimes that parent will feel guilty? Sure - it might happen. I DID. I felt guilty for feeding Bugsy a diet that made him sick for years - and note, that was prescription, with a vet's guidance. What fixed Bugsy? Raw.
Where did I learn about Raw?
Right here at TCS. It saved his life - plain and simple.
On the same token, I have seen first hand cats very close to me die terrible deaths that could be easily prevented had they been on canned or on raw. But their parents chose kibbles. And even prescription kibbles wouldn't save them.
I agree that no one knows our pets better than we do. I agree with that 100%.
I also have learned enough here at TCS to keep a very open mind to learn from others, then discuss it with my vet..... and guess what - if I don't agree with my vet, I stick to my instincts and some very good advices I have received here... Luckily I have a GREAT vet with a very open mind who will work with me.... But my mind is as open as it can be to learn here at TCS..... the amount of knowledge I have gotten here has been tremendous.
I am sorry to see that some might not see the value in that.... Because that are not that many sites out there with the combined knowledge power that we can find here. It is really hard to beat. :nod:

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But who said I (or others) have not educated themselves? Who said that we are not as knowledgeable (or possibly more knowledgeable) then you are on what cats require in their diet? I have NEVER ONCE said kibble is ideal. I KNOW it isn't.
Also- I'm not bashing raw so i dont know why this is being brought up. I can't feed raw because: A. My cat won't eat it B. say what you will but I have two young children and raw does seem a bit risky (pathogen/bacteria wise). C. I have other things to do with my life then cut, weigh, and sort through meats.
I did raw for my dog (she didn't do well on it) and it WAS NOT worth the trouble/time I put into it so I will not be trying it again.
This doesn't mean I don't think it's ideal for a cat! I do!
Just like I DONT think kibble is ideal.
My happy medium would be wet- and IM TRYING! So are many other people, I'm sure.

bluebo said:

My happy medium would be wet- and IM TRYING! So are many other people, I'm sure.

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agreed. being human, we can just do out best.

jlc20m

Carolina said:

Bluebo - question - would you be willing to let us to go all the way to the beginning, back to the basis of your introduction, and let us help you out? Are you open to it?
I know that together we can do it...... are you up to?

Click to expand...

Yes it is something that I would be open to... as long as I haven't already tried it

bluebo said:

But who said I (or others) have not educated themselves?

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When someone joins in forum discussions, we have no way to know what someone knows or has tried. People are usually here to learn, and should definitely not be offended when people don't know what someone does or doesn't already know. :scratch: You said in the very first post, "We are on this forum to learn and we are here because we love our cats. Let that be our common ground."

As to the raw issue, you quite clearly targeted the raw feeders, "It's not just you and it is generally the raw community that takes offensive to the next level."

Thank you for being kind enough to add, "I have jumped on raw feeders at times in my defensiveness and this is just as wrong. I can apologize for that."

bluebo said:

Yes it is something that I would be open to... as long as I haven't already tried it

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Ok, I will go back to the other thread and ask you some questions.
You might have to do some things you have already tried, but in a different order - I don't know, as I don't know everything you have tried yet.
We need to see.....

bluebo said:

I basically have nothing more to say...
I have stated why I feel the way I do and I can't convey it any more straight forward then I already have.
When there is a comparison between what I feed my cat and McDonalds, candy, junk food, cereal etc, then I am offended. I'm not offended because I am a lazy person that prefers dry for my own convenience, I am offended because I have tried my utmost to get him onto a DIFFERENT diet with little success. There will be others in the same position as I am (attempting to convert onto wet and being relatively unsuccessful) and I would hate for them to feel like I do when people make these junk food references.
Is there not another way of stating that you disagree with kibble without demeaning it? I mean I think that maybe saying "crapple" isn't meant to demean or belittle the person using it but it DOES feel like it. People ARE on here to educate themselves NOT to be belittled into doing the right thing. Making any sense?
We could all say "wet is ideal and if you could possibly make the switch that would be the best for the cat" (which most members do, I'm not denying that) instead of- "people shouldnt feed this junk to their cats" (which a few members have said- not quoting).

Click to expand...

I'm sorry you feel that way but really don't you think you might be being just a tad bit oversensitive to think that someone using derogatory language to describe a food is somehow meant as a slam on you? 

I don't approve of using derogatory language to describe foods. That kind of description is almost always inaccurate and is always unhelpful. But, many, many people participate in these forums. Old members leave, new members join. Current members who read your posts in this thread may try to change their ways but there will always be new members who come on board and start using that same language. Rather than you trying to "educate" others to communicate in your preferred manner don't you think maybe you could try to be less sensitive?

If you feel guilty because you are unable to convince your cat to eat what you want him to eat that is all on you it has nothing to do with anyone else.

LDG said:

When someone joins in forum discussions, we have no way to know what someone knows or has tried. People are usually here to learn, and should definitely not be offended when people don't know what someone does or doesn't already know. :scratch: You said in the very first post, "We are on this forum to learn and we are here because we love our cats. Let that be our common ground."
As to the raw issue, you quite clearly targeted the raw feeders, "It's not just you and it is generally the raw community that takes offensive to the next level."
Thank you for being kind enough to add, "I have jumped on raw feeders at times in my defensiveness and this is just as wrong. I can apologize for that."

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Ok-- I am all for education, particularly if the person asks for it. I just don't like the comparison between what I'm feeding my cat and junk food. It may be an honest/realistic comparison but it does hurt. It hurts because I can't get my cat on a 100% wet diet. We could just say- this diet isn't ideal. Instead of this diet is McDonalds. That's all I'm saying.

mschauer said:

I'm sorry you feel that way but really don't you think you might be being just a tad bit oversensitive to think that someone using derogatory language to describe a food is somehow meant as a slam on you? 
 
I don't approve of using derogatory language to describe foods. That kind of description is almost always inaccurate and is always unhelpful. But, many, many people participate in these forums. Old members leave, new members join. Current members who read your posts in this thread may try to change their ways but there will always be new members who come on board and start using that same language. Rather than you trying to "educate" others to communicate in your preferred manner don't you think maybe you could try to be less sensitive?
 
If you feel guilty because you are unable to convince your cat to eat what you want him to eat that is all on you it has nothing to do with anyone else.

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Yes I am sensitive. Don't you think you could be less insensitive? It goes both ways honestly...

bluebo said:

mschauer said:

I'm sorry you feel that way but really don't you think you might be being just a tad bit oversensitive to think that someone using derogatory language to describe a food is somehow meant as a slam on you? 
 
I don't approve of using derogatory language to describe foods. That kind of description is almost always inaccurate and is always unhelpful. But, many, many people participate in these forums. Old members leave, new members join. Current members who read your posts in this thread may try to change their ways but there will always be new members who come on board and start using that same language. Rather than you trying to "educate" others to communicate in your preferred manner don't you think maybe you could try to be less sensitive?
 
If you feel guilty because you are unable to convince your cat to eat what you want him to eat that is all on you it has nothing to do with anyone else.

Click to expand...

Yes I am sensitive. Don't you think you could be less insensitive? It goes both ways honestly...

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Trust me. you would have much greater success if you look at making changes in yourself rather than trying to get everyone else to change.

If you really are doing the best you can, there's no reason to feel guilty or defensive about anything anyone says :dk:. Now, sometimes people just want permission to give up (on whatever it is they're doing, not just pet food specific), and rarely find that permission. But even if you don't get validation for what you really want to do, it's still your decision and you don't even have to defend that decision if you don't want to.

Now, personally, I like a good discussion, even if it turns into an argument. But nothing is stopping you from feeding your cat whatever you darn well want to, and there's no reason you have to start an internet discussion about it if you don't want to. It's not like people are coming into your home, spying your cat food in the cabinet, and saying "OMG! I can't believe you feed your cat that junk!!". All internet discussions are up to you. Start one or don't, reply or don't, discuss, argue, rant---it's all up to you.

bluebo said:

Ok-- I am all for education, particularly if the person asks for it. I just don't like the comparison between what I'm feeding my cat and junk food. It may be an honest/realistic comparison but it does hurt. It hurts because I can't get my cat on a 100% wet diet. We could just say- this diet isn't ideal. Instead of this diet is McDonalds. That's all I'm saying.

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Bluebo, the first thing for you to get your cat into a 100% wet diet is to stop saying you can't do it. YOU CAN. I promise you, if you want, you CAN. But not if you think you can't. You are already defeating yourself with that state of mind.... You can say you are having a hard time..... But don't say you can't.
He already eats wet..... You are SO ahead of the game it is not even funny! There are some missing pieces we need to figure out..... But I have no doubt in my mind you can do this.
But you have to stop saying it, and put in your head that you CAN do it.

bluebo said:

mschauer said:

I'm sorry you feel that way but really don't you think you might be being just a tad bit oversensitive to think that someone using derogatory language to describe a food is somehow meant as a slam on you? 
 
I don't approve of using derogatory language to describe foods. That kind of description is almost always inaccurate and is always unhelpful. But, many, many people participate in these forums. Old members leave, new members join. Current members who read your posts in this thread may try to change their ways but there will always be new members who come on board and start using that same language. Rather than you trying to "educate" others to communicate in your preferred manner don't you think maybe you could try to be less sensitive?
 
If you feel guilty because you are unable to convince your cat to eat what you want him to eat that is all on you it has nothing to do with anyone else.

Click to expand...

Yes I am sensitive. Don't you think you could be less insensitive? It goes both ways honestly...

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But who are you addressing here? mschauer just said she doesn't approve of using derogatory language to describe foods.

I'm sorry. I understand that people don't like to learn the diet they're feeding isn't healthy. I wasn't happy to learn it. You already know what you want to feed; you have an uncooperative kitty. But criticizing unknown members of a public board where everyone is free to post whatever they want within the rules of the board is unproductive and is only resulting in questions, round-about exchange, and hurt feelings on both sides.

mschauer said:

Trust me. you would have much greater success if you look at making changes in yourself rather than trying to get everyone to change.

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Quite frankly, it's the only real option. :dk:

Willowy said:

If you really are doing the best you can, there's no reason to feel guilty or defensive about anything anyone says :dk:. Now, sometimes people just want permission to give up (on whatever it is they're doing, not just pet food specific), and rarely find that permission. But even if you don't get validation for what you really want to do, it's still your decision and you don't even have to defend that decision if you don't want to.

Now, personally, I like a good discussion, even if it turns into an argument. But nothing is stopping you from feeding your cat whatever you darn well want to, and there's no reason you have to start an internet discussion about it if you don't want to. It's not like people are coming into your home, spying your cat food in the cabinet, and saying "OMG! I can't believe you feed your cat that junk!!". All internet discussions are up to you. Start one or don't, reply or don't, discuss, argue, rant---it's all up to you.

Click to expand...

And that sums it up very neatly. :nod: