Kibble/Wet/Raw

[bluebo]

I think this bears saying...
I don't think that there are many people on this forum (or other cat forums) that don't realize that raw is ideal, wet is a close second and kibble is least desirable for our cats to consume. HOWEVER- while raw/canned are the most ideal- some animals just WILL NOT eat it.
I have been continuously persistent in attempting to get my cat to eat a wet diet. I have tried since I adopted him 2.5 years ago (and most persistently this past 7 months) to convert my cat Bo onto a wet diet. I even tried for a few months to get him onto a full PMR (prey model raw) diet. He did not convert. He absolutely refuses.
The best success I have had is with Fancy Feast and he has recently shunned that as well.
I have now resigned myself to feeding my cat a primarily kibble diet. This isn't due to laziness, ineptness, or neglect. It is that my cat will not eat what is set down for him and he WILL starve himself.
I have tried every piece of advice. I have tried every wet that I can think of. I have not allowed him to be fussy and left wet for him for a bit over 24 hours (he didn't eat the entire time). Did not work.
I am not typing this to defend my "poor dietary choices" but to show you that in some situations a cat cannot eat an "ideal" diet. We all know the risks to doling out "tough love" and I am not willing to take the risks any longer nor should anyone have to do this.
Comparing kibble to "a child eating candy" or eating McDonalds every day is very offensive to those of us that have tried everything in our power. I don't mind if people don't like kibble. *I* don't like kibble for cats BUT I am in a positions that it is all that I can feed (nothing to do with money, I'm financially stable enough to feed whatever he needs).
Would you say that a cat would be better off being fed Friskies dry and being loved by a family in a warm and safe environment OR that a cat be a feral eating a true raw diet in the wilderness??
The judgement is irritating and offensive and if that could stop it would be greatly appreciated.
We are on this forum to learn and we are here because we love our cats. Let that be our common ground.
Education is important, but judgement isn't necessary (or wanted). \rant

 

[kittylover23]

Would you say that a cat would be better off being fed Friskies dry and being loved by a family in a warm and safe environment OR that a cat be a feral eating a true raw diet in the wilderness??

YES! For sure! A kitty would definitely be better off being fed Friskies dry and loved by a family than outside as a feral eating raw. 100%! I did not mean to offend you with my kibble ranting. Just trying to help you out. Very sorry if you were offended or irritated. I understand that you HAVE exhausted all your options, and that with your kitty it is definitely a struggle to transition to wet or raw. Some kitties (especially older or senior cats) are definitely stuck on eating kibble only, because they're stuck in their ways! You can't teach an old dog (or cat :lol3 new tricks and I totally get that.

A kibble diet including a lot of moisture (from your cat drinking water) can be fine! Definitely stick with that, and if you can try to, add some wet or raw into the mix and see if he likes it. So sorry if you took my post the wrong way, did not mean to offend you.

 

[Willowy]

I think we all should do the best we can do, and encourage each other to do the best we can do. But sometimes that IS the best we can do. . .if that makes any sense :tongue2:.

 

[ilovemia]

I agree. Judgement is not needed. We all do the best for our cats. I feed kibble too. Mine is a financial reason. My cats are loved dearly though and are not neglected. They may not have a lot but love is something they cant do without. They are much better with what they have here than in a shelter or out on their own.

 

[ilovemia]

I think we all should do the best we can do, and encourage each other to do the best we can do. But sometimes that IS the best we can do. . .if that makes any sense

.

Makes perfect sense!

 

[bluebo]

YES! For sure! A kitty would definitely be better off being fed Friskies dry and loved by a family than outside as a feral eating raw. 100%! I did not mean to offend you with my kibble ranting. Just trying to help you out. Very sorry if you were offended or irritated. I understand that you HAVE exhausted all your options, and that with your kitty it is definitely a struggle to transition to wet or raw. Some kitties (especially older or senior cats) are definitely stuck on eating kibble only, because they're stuck in their ways! You can't teach an old dog (or cat :lol3 new tricks and I totally get that.
A kibble diet including a lot of moisture (from your cat drinking water) can be fine! Definitely stick with that, and if you can try to, add some wet or raw into the mix and see if he likes it. So sorry if you took my post the wrong way, did not mean to offend you.

Its ok! I totally forgive you lol! (This thread wasn't just directed at you btw, there are many people that can be quite cruel... maybe they don't even mean to be which is why I'm pointing it out).
It's not just you and it is generally the raw community that takes offensive to the next level. I understand their theories and their ideology, I really do. If my cat would actually transition to raw/canned I would be jumping for joy but I wouldn't talk down to others that have tried their hardest to transition their stubborn old cats! I would just say do your personal best with whatever resources, finances, and abilities that you have.
In a way I suppose I have been a bit hypocritical. I have jumped on raw feeders at times in my defensiveness and this is just as wrong. I can apologize for that.
I don't care what people feed their cats as long as they are doing the absolute best they can.
What I dislike is when people DO have the knowledge and plenty of money and STILL buy their cats Iams, Friskies or Cat Chow kibble because they actually are lazy. Still though- if they are coming on here trying to better their education on feline nutrition, kudos to them!
I love my cat dearly and I know that chances are, kibble will affect him negatively at some point. I also know that starving him to transition would affect him negatively a lot quicker!
Seriously though kittylover23, it's all good!

 

[bluebo]

I agree. Judgement is not needed. We all do the best for our cats. I feed kibble too. Mine is a financial reason. My cats are loved dearly though and are not neglected. They may not have a lot but love is something they cant do without. They are much better with what they have here than in a shelter or out on their own.

No judgement here
We all do our best and that is, most of the time, better then 90% of society!

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Yes, I struggle with one of mine on a daily basis trying to get him to eat the very best (raw), so I feel your pain.  He ate kibble the first 3 years of his life, and when he eats wet, he will ONLY eat fish flavors, which I really don't want to feed exclusively, but now he also doesn't even want kibble.  So I'm really between a rock and a hard place. 

I find, though that I can induce him to eat at least one meal a day of the raw (it may be freeze dried raw, which is sort of like kibbles, only it's raw (Stella and Chewy's)), and oddly, he is NOT losing weight, and still has bushels of energy.  So, for him, that is enough.  Usually, though, I can get him to eat at least 2 meals, if I put a topper on his food, like crushed Wholelife freeze dried chicken, or something like that.

All that being said, have you checked into Wysong's Epigen 90 kibble.  It's 90% meat, and starch free.  As kibble goes, it's a very good one, simply because it's so high in protein.  (60%).  I know some of us that feed raw keep it handy for those occasions when we are out of town and the furkids might not eat for our catsitters. 

Anyway, you can only do what you can do.  Hey, I fed Science Diet kibble for the first 40 years of having pets, simply because I thought it was "the best"

 

[andrya]

Your story reminded me of one of my children (not cat-related, l know), but for the life

of me l could NOT get him to eat any vegetables. ANY!

One day l managed to get him to "try" 2 chopped pieces of green beans, and l was thrilled.

The next morning when he got up, the green beans were still in his mouth! He assured me he

had taken them out to clean his teeth 

 

[bluebo]

Your story reminded me of one of my children (not cat-related, l know), but for the life
of me l could NOT get him to eat any vegetables. ANY!
One day l managed to get him to "try" 2 chopped pieces of green beans, and l was thrilled.
The next morning when he got up, the green beans were still in his mouth! He assured me he
had taken them out to clean his teeth :lol3:

That's hilarious! My daughter is exactly like this.... my daughter is autistic and has some extreme food issues. She will not eat anything green. For a while she would only eat potato products of some type. I tried endlessly to get her to eat anything. I even tried mashing cauliflower with mashed potatoes (you think that it would be concealed) well that DIDNT work. She KNEW it was in there! Wouldn't eat her mashed potatoes lol.
There's an idea and then the application. An idea can be great but if you can't apply it, it is rendered useless. That is why I can't feed my cat wet or my daughter green food LOL!

 

[ldg]

Would you say that a cat would be better off being fed Friskies dry and being loved by a family in a warm and safe environment OR that a cat be a feral eating a true raw diet in the wilderness??
The judgement is irritating and offensive and if that could stop it would be greatly appreciated.
We are on this forum to learn and we are here because we love our cats. Let that be our common ground.
Education is important, but judgement isn't necessary (or wanted). \rant

There are some members that could be more tactful at times when discussing kibble. But I don't know of anyone on the board that is actually judgmental when it comes to people's food choices given kitties' issues, constraints, budgets, etc. :dk:

I don't think there is ANYONE on here that doesn't agree: it's better to see a kitty in a loving home being fed just about any commercial food than scrounging and starving outside.

That said, I work with ferals in a rural area where hunting is easy, and the cats here have a good life. So I'm not so sure a comparison to "a feral eating a true raw diet in the wilderness" is a good comparison, only because a true feral doesn't make a good pet, and I'm semantically and accuracy-challenged. Any lost or abandoned pet, or feral kitten would be better off in a loving home being fed any diet.

As to the comparisons... some of them are appropriate. That's not judgment. It's an educational tool, and not something DESIGNED to make people feel guilty. :dk:

 

[feralvr]

Any lost or abandoned pet, or feral kitten would be better off in a loving home being fed any diet.

Absolutely true!!! It doesn't matter what you feed your kitties, we all do the best we can for them and within their limitations. Most importantly is a loving home first and foremost before diet.

As to the comparisons... some of them are appropriate. That's not judgment. It's an educational tool, and not something DESIGNED to make people feel guilty. :dk:

I do think that the main issue with people feeling that they are being judged is because they want to feed their cats that "better" diet but for whatever reason (financial or other) they just cannot get the cat off dry and then they might become overly sensitive to the topic of feeding a cat the appropriate species related diet. You know? I have been there, believe me. It made me so sad when I couldn't get some of my kitties to eat the "better" diet. It is frustrating for that person and then they feel guilty that they are not getting the "wet" or "raw" food into their cats. Hope this makes sense. :lol3: I am just saying that I understand why someone would feel judged for not doing so even when they are not really being judged, only educated on the subject. There is quite a difference.

 

[feralvr]

All that being said, have you checked into Wysong's Epigen 90 kibble.  It's 90% meat, and starch free.  As kibble goes, it's a very good one, simply because it's so high in protein.  (60%).  I know some of us that feed raw keep it handy for those occasions when we are out of town and the furkids might not eat for our catsitters. 

I also have Wysongs Epigen 90 here. :nod: It is an excellent kibble and does come in handy in a pinch. I have a major issue with three of my feral born babies when I have to be away. SO I have to leave out something for them to eat as they will not come out for a sitter. I love this stuff and, yes, it is a kibble. But the best IMO. There is also "plain" Epigen, which is still 60% protein, and is cheaper than the 90. Will have to look at the comparison in ingredients in the two. But it is much less, if anyone is interested.

 

[ldg]

I do think that the main issue with people feeling that they are being judged is because they want to feed their cats that "better" diet but for whatever reason (financial or other) they just cannot get the cat off dry and then they might become overly sensitive to the topic of feeding a cat the appropriate species related diet. You know? I have been there, believe me. It made me so sad when I couldn't get some of my kitties to eat the "better" diet. It is frustrating for that person and then they feel guilty that they are not getting the "wet" or "raw" food into their cats. Hope this makes sense. :lol3: I am just saying that I understand why someone would feel judged for not doing so even when they are not really being judged, only educated on the subject. There is quite a difference.

Thank you for sharing that, Lauren. The issue of "judgment" has come up before. I'm one of the people that makes comparisons for educational purposes; yet I also happily help people make better informed choices for kibble, canned, or raw. I feed Friskies pates to the ferals, I give my cats Fancy Feast on occasion, and when money's tight, I use 4Health dry for the ferals too. So if anyone sees/feels judgment in any of my posts, it's being read into it. :dk:

 

[bluebo]

Thank you for sharing that, Lauren. The issue of "judgment" has come up before. I'm one of the people that makes comparisons for educational purposes; yet I also happily help people make better informed choices for kibble, canned, or raw. I feed Friskies pates to the ferals, I give my cats Fancy Feast on occasion, and when money's tight, I use 4Health dry for the ferals too. So if anyone sees/feels judgment in any of my posts, it's being read into it. :dk:

Well referring to it as crapple, McDonalds, candy etc is offensive. I don't know if you have specifically referred to it as such but many people on here have.
It may not be ideal but I believe a high quality dry is not necessarily as bad as candy *sigh*. Yes I feel bad that I can't feed my cat an ideal diet. It isn't a lack of knowledge or research- its that my cat won't eat it. I believe that this is the case with many other people (also financial constraints).
Just asking for a bit of respect.

 

[auntie crazy]

I agree with Laurie on this. TCS is by far one of the kindest, most helpful sites I've ever come across in regards to supporting cat owners in their various feline menu choices.

I also agree with Laurie that comparing kibble to McDonald's is not judgmental... it is, unfortunately, a very apt analogy. As the movie "Supersize Me" shockingly illustrates, a diet of McDonald's foods is unhealthy and wreaks havoc upon our bodies. Kibble is and does the same thing to feline bodies.

The other day I went to visit my Mom and picked up two of the awesome deliciousness that is a Milky Way; ostensibly one was for me and one for her. When I offered one to her after lunch, there was a rather uncomfortable few moments as she tried to think of a "polite" way to tell me she wasn't interested in eating one of those incredible-melt-in-your-mouth but-oh-so-fattening candy bars. Of course, they are totally stuffed to the wrapper with calories and she was justified in turning my "gift" down. The slight twinge of discomfort I felt at that precise moment was neither her fault nor her intention, but rather a product of my own (very brief) acknowledgement that she was correct in her reasoning. It's not really fair to accuse others of being judgmental when they're really just speaking an uncomfortable truth, you know? (For the record, I ate both candy bars and enjoyed them thoroughly.

)

I'm truly sorry you're having such a tough time transitioning your kitty, Bluebo.

  I'd like to encourage you not to give up. Some cats can be notoriously difficult to switch, but sometimes all it takes is time. Often, it's not necessarily finding "the" wet food upon which to transition your kitty, but more about helping your boy understand that canned foods are actually foods, even good-to-eat foods. It's a lifestyle change, and those things take time - for us and, sometimes, for our kitties. Nor should any transition ever involve "force". It's unnecessary, harmful and even counterproductive to try to starve a cat into eating something it doesn't consider appetizing. I'm so sad and sorry you felt pressured towards taking such an action, and very glad you chose not to do so.

Dr. Pierson's site, CatInfo.org, has a wonderfully detailed page dedicated to information on transitioning kibble addicts; hopefully, you can find something there that may be of help to you. You sound so distressed that your boy is still on kibble... I truly hope you are able to find some peace, either with the diet itself, or because you were successful in helping him make the switch.

AC

 

[carolina]

Its ok! I totally forgive you lol! (This thread wasn't just directed at you btw, there are many people that can be quite cruel... maybe they don't even mean to be which is why I'm pointing it out).
It's not just you and it is generally the raw community that takes offensive to the next level. I understand their theories and their ideology, I really do. If my cat would actually transition to raw/canned I would be jumping for joy but I wouldn't talk down to others that have tried their hardest to transition their stubborn old cats! I would just say do your personal best with whatever resources, finances, and abilities that you have.

I find this rather unfair.... I am sure I am one of these people from the raw community you are talking about.... I truly can't see any of us being cruel, talking down to others who can't transition raw or canned, and taking offensive to the next level.... Not at all.
We spend our time researching and helping any way we can those members who are here sincerely looking for help. We care deeply for each and every one of them. We guide them with their transitions.... For wet, raw, or even kibbles, when they have issues.
You have issues transitioning a kitty to wet? Trust me, I dealt with the best of them. I use my experience to help others.... Like you.... Who are transitioning to wet or raw. you have no idea how much trouble Lucky was to transition. No idea.
I know my experience with Lucky could help you.... I also feel my help would not be welcomed, because a lot of times you become defensive.... And what is help for us, you perceive as being looked down upon :dk:
IMHO this statement is far from the truth, and it is sad you feel this way.... The people "at the raw community" as you call us, are people just like you, who one day didn't feed raw, and transitioned their cats to it.... Some like myself, fought against raw with tooth and nail.... And went through an unbelievable amount of trouble during our transitions..... And we learned a lot from it.... And now we are simply sharing the experience with others, to make their lives easier. We are not better than anyone. Not better not worst. We have just been there.
I think, if you take the time to get to know us better, you might get to think a little differently.... And find that those threads might actually help you.
Anyways..... My 2 or 3 cents, if they are worth anything....

 

[bluebo]

I agree with Laurie on this. TCS is by far one of the kindest, most helpful sites I've ever come across in regards to supporting cat owners in their various feline menu choices.

I also agree with Laurie that comparing kibble to McDonald's is not judgmental... it is, unfortunately, a very apt analogy. As the movie "Supersize Me" shockingly illustrates, a diet of McDonald's foods is unhealthy and wreaks havoc upon our bodies. Kibble is and does the same thing to feline bodies.

I know kibble isn't the healthiest diet (I acknowledged that in previous posts) but I know that starving him to get him onto a wet diet is a far more unhealthy option..

The other day I went to visit my Mom and picked up two of the awesome deliciousness that is a Milky Way; ostensibly one was for me and one for her. When I offered one to her after lunch, there was a rather uncomfortable few moments as she tried to think of a "polite" way to tell me she wasn't interested in eating one of those incredible-melt-in-your-mouth but-oh-so-fattening candy bars. Of course, they are totally stuffed to the wrapper with calories and she was justified in turning my "gift" down. The slight twinge of discomfort I felt at that precise moment was neither her fault nor her intention, but rather a product of my own (very brief) acknowledgement that she was correct in her reasoning. It's not really fair to accuse others of being judgmental when they're really just speaking an uncomfortable truth, you know? (For the record, I ate both candy bars and enjoyed them thoroughly. )

I suppose it is the way in which the chocolate bar was denied "oh no thank you" was most likely her response not "why would you even offer me such a fattening piece of food, don't know you know what's in there? What kind of person in their right mind would attempt to feed me such a piece of crap?"
No. I'm sure that's not how she came across.... sometimes that is how I feel the cat community has treated me when I say I feed kibble and it offends me. Maybe in over sensitive... I don't know.

I'm truly sorry you're having such a tough time transitioning your kitty, Bluebo.   I'd like to encourage you not to give up. Some cats can be notoriously difficult to switch, but sometimes all it takes is time. Often, it's not necessarily finding "the" wet food upon which to transition your kitty, but more about helping your boy understand that canned foods are actually foods, even good-to-eat foods. It's a lifestyle change, and those things take time - for us and, sometimes, for our kitties. Nor should any transition ever involve "force". It's unnecessary, harmful and even counterproductive to try to starve a cat into eating something it doesn't consider appetizing. I'm so sad and sorry you felt pressured towards taking such an action, and very glad you chose not to do so.

It has been a very hard road to getting this cat onto wet and I suppose (even though it sounds like I have a defeatist attitude) I will still continue to try. I love my cat as much as any of you on here... I'm just trying to do what is in his best interest...

Dr. Pierson's site, CatInfo.org, has a wonderfully detailed page dedicated to information on transitioning kibble addicts; hopefully, you can find something there that may be of help to you. You sound so distressed that your boy is still on kibble... I truly hope you are able to find some peace, either with the diet itself, or because you were successful in helping him make the switch. :heart3:

Thank you for the site recommendation, I will check it out for sure! Yes I am very distressed, I feel like a failure... like I'm doing something wrong *sigh*. This cat is a PITA! Lol, but I love him dearly.

AC

My responses in bold^^

 

[bluebo]

I find this rather unfair.... I am sure I am one of these people from the raw community you are talking about.... I truly can't see any of us being cruel, talking down to others who can't transition raw or canned, and taking offensive to the next level.... Not at all.

How to explain this....
When certain people switch their pet onto raw (some cat owners and some dog owners) they tend to get an arrogant attitude. Like they are better somehow then us insignificant, bottom feeder kibble/canned feeding losers. Like we lack the knowledge/understanding to attempt a raw diet.... then we do try the diet (or I did anyway) and it didnt work out: then there is this conspiratorial view that we didnt try hard enough and that it was simply user error! It's a lose, lose situation!
It doesn't take a whole lot to look on the Internet and figure out how to create a balanced raw diet. It's not that hard to throw one together. It is hard when a cat REFUSES to eat it; not only causing frustration but literally throwing money into the garbage.
I'm not saying that EVERY person on this forum has been rude and forceful but I'm saying a couple of members have been which, IMHO, required acknowledgement (yes you were a bit forceful Carolina). This forum is relatively calm and YES very supportive compared to others. But if a person says "I feel judged and therefore offended" then I don't think it should be brushed off.


We spend our time researching and helping any way we can those members who are here sincerely looking for help. We care deeply for each and every one of them. We guide them with their transitions.... For wet, raw, or even kibbles, when they have issues.
You have issues transitioning a kitty to wet? Trust me, I dealt with the best of them. I use my experience to help others.... Like you.... Who are transitioning to wet or raw. you have no idea how much trouble Lucky was to transition. No idea.


The point is I do know how hard Lucky was to transition. I'm in that position right now. Maybe you are more tolerant and view your cats as your children but I actually DO have two children and a husband to think about besides my cat. They take a higher priority and they need my time and attentions too.
I'm not about to devote my life to my cats diet. I have a life other then my cat and what it eats.
I know my experience with Lucky could help you.... I also feel my help would not be welcomed, because a lot of times you become defensive.... And what is help for us, you perceive as being looked down upon :dk:


When people make comments on how I'm feeding my cat McDonalds when I am doing the absolute best I can, I do tend to get defensive, absolutely!
IMHO this statement is far from the truth, and it is sad you feel this way.... The people "at the raw community" as you call us, are people just like you, who one day didn't feed raw, and transitioned their cats to it.... Some like myself, fought against raw with tooth and nail.... And went through an unbelievable amount of trouble during our transitions..... And we learned a lot from it.... And now we are simply sharing the experience with others, to make their lives easier. We are not better than anyone. Not better not worst. We have just been there.
I think, if you take the time to get to know us better, you might get to think a little differently.... And find that those threads might actually help you.
Anyways..... My 2 or 3 cents, if they are worth anything...

im getting to know you guys and I am appreciating what I am seeing. It seem like you all are generally caring, sweet people giving great advice. I'm just showing where some tweaking could possibly be done.... That is my 2 cents. .

 

[carolina]

Bluebo, I am sorry you feel this way, I really am. I don't see a conspiracy, I really don't.
Unfortunately, I can't change the way you feel.....

We all have a life..... You bet I work full time.... and you wouldn't believe HOW FULL time my load is. I don't know if you are aware, but I actually travel 3 weeks, sometimes 4 weeks out of the month for work. Yes.... While I don't have kids due to being single and somewhat choosing a career that requires a lot of traveling instead..... I do have a life..... And so do all the others.....

We feed our cats, but we don't stop living. We don't devote our lives to our cats, and forget about the rest as you are implying here...... :dk:
We all have our priorities.... Some have kids, husbands, husbands and kids, husbands and kids and work..... You are not alone on that one.....

You are not alone on having a cat that refuses to eat - many of us have that, including me.

Again, to have you feel a different way about us.... I mean... what can I say? For what I can see, it is how you feel.... It seems to me it is a matter of perspective here.... No one is trying to attack you, no one is looking down on you.... Yet you feel attacked and you feel looked down upon :dk:

I don't know how to change that, unless you start looking at things a little different here.... Because I promise you, the fact is, no one is doing that to you even though you are perceving it that way.