hmmm wouldn't touch his primal.

My Guseepoo wouldn't touch his primal tonight.  I'm curious as to the possible reasons.  Ulysses ate his, so I'm guessing that it wasn't bad (someone had mentioned before that cats will not eat bad meat). I ended up just giving him some canned food which he ate quickly while growling.  I know that he really like the rad cat lamb I had been giving them. Do you think he's just being snooty?  I put some rad cat in the fridge to thaw in case this issue continues into the morning. 

I keep being concerned about the fatty liver thing.  My boys ALWAYS eat every drop of food given to them.  Gus is down a whole lb from 13 - 12 in about a months time. I've been giving them....ugh, maybe I'm giving him too little. I've been giving him 3.75 ounces per day along with one pounce treat. SOME days they get 2.  One day a week they each get 2 sardines as a meal replacement and I've been dividing one egg yolk between the two twice a week. 

Do you think it's just a fluke?

My sad story is that once I gave Stinkpot a taste of Radcat, he won't eat anything else!  Sometimes he won't even eat his backup, which is canned Weruva.  When that happens, I'm really in a bind. 

All you can do is try it again at the next meal.  Try different raws and see what happens.  Hopefully you won't end up with a raw snob on your hands like me. 

As to the 1 lb weight loss, one time my piggy Darko lost WAY too much in just one week...something a little over a pound .  I was freaking out, so immediately started feeding him more so he wouldn't lose so quickly.  Of course, now we're back to trying to get him to lose again, 'cause he ended up gaining it ALL back .   A pound over a month is a little too much, but he should be ok since he's been eating well.  At least those are MY thoughts.  Darko did ok with that quick weight loss that he took since we corrected it pretty quickly.

How long did you wait before you gave him the canned? Sometimes my cat will look up at me like 'I ain't touching that' but then I walk away and he'll eat it. But I've trained my cat that way, he knows being snooty won't get him his way.
Was Gus overweight before? If so it means the raw is doing his job, burning fat and building muscle. Losing one pound of weight for his size is not dangerous. He was only losing about 4oz a week = 2%. I would keep tabs on his weight though. If he continues to lose, definitely give him more food.

1lb a month is a safe weight loss, not to worry... That's what was recommended by my vet, actually....
As far as the food.... Cats can and do become finicky, especially if you feed a food that they love over and over again.
Which is one of the reasons it is so important to rotate meals..... Once those meats have been introduced, of course. I try to not repeat meats.
When I fed Rad cat, I fed one flavor per meal - chicken, lamb and turkey, then I added other brands, and added them into the rotation too.
What you can do now, is mix Primal and Rad Cat, then slowly remove Rad Cat until you have only the Primal.
Make sure to feed it often, so that doesn't happen again.
A good way to avoid that, is to defrost the Rad Cat tub, and re-pack it into individual meal ziplock bags, so you don't need to feed the entire tub at once.... Makes it easier to rotate meals

Well, he was snooty again this morning.  I put primal and raw chicken in their bowls.  He ate the chicken, licked the water I put in the bowl, and moved on.  I let it sit for a little bit (maybe 5 minutes), I can't walk away from it because Ulysses will eat it up.  The Rad Cat hadn't thawed from last night (it was in a smaller container than it's original packaging) so I gave him more thawed chicken.  So basically his meal this morning was just chicken.  I will have to pick up more rad cat if this is going to take time to get him to be less snooty. It's so uncharacteristic of him, though.  I'm glad he ate the raw chicken, though. 

My boys are tall and long so Gus may have been a smidgen overweight.  I can't see them being cats that should ever be under 10lbs, but I will ask the vet on our next appointment which is about 2 months away.  I will just keep a close eye on their weight and keep their weight loss under 2 % until then. 

Just be careful about caving and giving him what he wants. Just like if you give into a dog begging and give them scraps, every time you give into a cat's snootyness, you reinforce that it works.
If you are worried about your other cat eating the food, maybe you could feed Gus in a seperate room temporarily so he has more time to think about finishing?
I can't post links well because I'm on my phone, but there are plenty of charts online for cat weights and where optimal is. If your cats' heads aren't the same width as their bodies and they don't have a defined waist, then they could probably stand to lose a pound or two.

This cat has me stumped.  Again, he's turned up his nose to Rad Cat & Instinct. I even put him in a separate room with his food.  I even tried warming it up a bit. NOTHING!  Then I put some canned on it and mushed it around.  Then he ate everything in the bowl. ***???  Any other suggestions?

How long did you wait before you warmed it up? Then how long did you wait before you put canned with it?
Did you check on him often? Stay in the room with him?

What happens if you offer him raw chicken, will he eat? (again, I mean, did you try it tonight?)
With my cats, once I offered them chunks of meat, that was it..... They started rejecting ground and very quickly I had to move into frankerprey.
Do you have a problem with it? You can balance that chicken, start adding more proteins, and soon he will be eating a balanced diet.... It is not that hard.... Way cheaper too.... That was the choice my kitties made once they were introduced to the good stuff.... Same happened to Laurie' kitties.... Just giving you the heads up that it might be the case in you neck of the woods too

My cats don't always finish a meal, and I let them not finish. I also let them skip a meal. I get worried when it's more than one meal.

But in the end, mine stopped eating ground altogether once I fed them pieces of meat. That's why I feed the "boneless" frankenprey. I hadn't actually PLANNED on feeding it - I didn't have much choice if I wanted them to eat raw, once most of them decided they didn't like ground any longer. :lol3:

Carolina said:

What happens if you offer him raw chicken, will he eat? (again, I mean, did you try it tonight?)
With my cats, once I offered them chunks of meat, that was it..... They started rejecting ground and very quickly I had to move into frankerprey.
Do you have a problem with it? You can balance that chicken, start adding more proteins, and soon he will be eating a balanced diet.... It is not that hard.... Way cheaper too.... That was the choice my kitties made once they were introduced to the good stuff.... Same happened to Laurie' kitties.... Just giving you the heads up that it might be the case in you neck of the woods too

Click to expand...

You know I was thinking this very same thing today.  He only eats the chunks of chicken I put in. He sifts through everything to just get the chicken.  UGH!  He did the same thing today.  OH NO!  I'm just not ready to just feed him chunks of meat.  Aside from chicken, what type of meat should I get at the regular supermarket for the time being - just to introduce it to him.  Can I feed him JUST chicken?

I left the food down for a bit of time. He just walks away from it or uses his paw to fake burry it.  I just recently started giving them the small chunks of chicken. Do you think this could be it?  He really does like gnawing on the chicken.

Well, that's what happened to Carolina and I. :lol3: So yes, that really could be it!

Darn it!  Why do everyone else's cats like Frankenprey except mine ?????  I WANT to feed them chunks, and they act like I'm giving them worms or something.  I've tried chicken breast pieces, chicken thighs, turkey tenderloin, pork tenderloin...nothing.  Except one day when Callie just returned from the Vet.  That day she ate some chicken pieces, but hasn't since.  They won't even eat duck hearts.  Except Callie...once.  But never again.  .  I'm thinking seriously that I need to start over.

OK, done ranting

mrsgreenjeens said:

Darn it!  Why do everyone else's cats like Frankenprey except mine ?????  I WANT to feed them chunks, and they act like I'm giving them worms or something.  I've tried chicken breast pieces, chicken thighs, turkey tenderloin, pork tenderloin...nothing.  Except one day when Callie just returned from the Vet.  That day she ate some chicken pieces, but hasn't since.  They won't even eat duck hearts.  Except Callie...once.  But never again.  :frusty: .  I'm thinking seriously that I need to start over.

OK, done ranting

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UHHHHH - HELLO - :rofl: My cat's don't like Frankenprey either !!!!!!!!!!!! Well, except for Walden and Wendall :lol3: You are not alone, Sally!!!!!!!!!!! The only way I can get the four PsIMA to eat chicken is to cut it up so teeny and tiny and douse it in Fortiflora mixed with BFF tuna OH and they hate duck hearts now too.

mrsgreenjeens said:

Darn it!  Why do everyone else's cats like Frankenprey except mine

?????  I WANT to feed them chunks, and they act like I'm giving them worms or something.  I've tried chicken breast pieces, chicken thighs, turkey tenderloin, pork tenderloin...nothing.  Except one day when Callie just returned from the Vet.  That day she ate some chicken pieces, but hasn't since.  They won't even eat duck hearts.  Except Callie...once.  But never again. 

.  I'm thinking seriously that I need to start over.

OK, done ranting

Click to expand...

I would gladly switch with you right now!  I'm so not ready to do feed them that way. I'm completely unprepared as far as knowledge as I have absolutely no idea where to start.  I gave Gus  about 1.2 ounces of chicken and .3 ounces of primal.  He gobbled up the chicken very quickly and wouldn't touch the rest.  I have just enough to feed him tomorrow along with some canned but I have to get to the store. I have nothing for him except the stuff he wont eat. 

Can anyone be extremely specific with me...Should I just go get more chicken to give to him or should I get some other type of meat (like mentioned above).  Are chicken thighs different than chicken tenders.  Also, since I'm ridiculously unprepared do you think I should add something other than the probiotic to help balance his diet or should I feed partial canned and partial raw until I can figure it out.  I can't believe Gus is being so finicky. ***?!?!?!  I guess I can feed them their one sardine meal tomorrow as well until I figure something out. Also, I've read that you should slowly add proteins...I'm guessing they are used to the chicken now, so if I pick up another meat should I just feed that to them for a few days, and so on until we've introduced new meats. 

I'm sure these questions are answered somewhere already. I will search around but if someone could just give me some quick guidence as apparantly my cat will only eat chunks of raw meat now.  Boy, he gobble up that chicken so fast.  Same with Ulysses.  To be honest, it was kind of cute watching Gus gnaw on a peice for a little while. It was interesting.  I'm glad he's eating, though, since I initially thought something was wrong with him. Glad it's JUST him being snooty and not a health issue. My head is spinning :-(  I just wanted to transition REALLY slowly.

wolcar said:

You know I was thinking this very same thing today.  He only eats the chunks of chicken I put in. He sifts through everything to just get the chicken.  UGH!  He did the same thing today.  OH NO!  I'm just not ready to just feed him chunks of meat.  Aside from chicken, what type of meat should I get at the regular supermarket for the time being - just to introduce it to him.  Can I feed him JUST chicken?

I left the food down for a bit of time. He just walks away from it or uses his paw to fake burry it.  I just recently started giving them the small chunks of chicken. Do you think this could be it?  He really does like gnawing on the chicken.

Click to expand...

Sounds to me that he is telling you he loves meat chunks!!!!! I can't offer you any suggestions as to what other meats to try, will leave that to the people who feed that !!! I only feed commercially made ground. Walden and Wendall do love chewing on pieces of chicken breast and thigh. So I always offer them chunks every other day.

Hummmmm.......
I think your kitties just told you what they want :lol3: Yep, sounds like they went - No mommy, nonna that fake stuff Give us the Chicken!!!

Laurie and I feed what we named "boneless Frankerprey" which means we balance the meat with Calcium instead of feeding the "traditional" Frankerprey, or Meat/Organ/Bone

On Traditional Frankerprey, the goal is to simmulate the composition of a prey - I guess the name sake was Frankestein :lol3:, but instead of putting a dude together, you are putting a prey

Anyways, 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other secreting organ - pancreas, kidney, brain, eyes, thymus, etc.
Heart and Lungs are considered Muscle meats.

What I feed:
Muscles: Bugsy and Hope eat Chicken and Turkey breast, lamb (oh, and it HAS to be legs :doh3: - FINICKY), Venison, Duck and Turkey heart, Pork, Sometimes Rabbit, but they are not too fond of it and momma is not too fond of the work :lol3:, and I just found Veal at Walmart - They don't have it all the time $$$$, 100% natural, pasture raised, blah blah blah.... I will introduce soon, when I am home for the week.

Lucky eats Turkey, Chicken (both breasts) and Pork. The pork needs to be mixed with turkey or chicken, otherwise it is too strong for her.

They don't eat the 5% secreting organs.

For liver, Bugsy and Lucky get one cube of Etta Says Freeze Dry liver a day.

Ca. is balanced with Eggshell powder.

Hope's meals are balanced with Call of the Wild - this is something you can do....... Call of the Wild, by Wysong will make muscle meat (chicken, for example) 100% balanced and complete, with no need to add anything else to it - you your kiddos like it.......... Voila! All you need to feed chunks of meat, introduce other meats slowly, and not worry about not being balanced!
1/2 tsp will balance 1.5oz of meat.

All of my kids get probiotics (even Hope, in addition to COW, even though she probably wouldn't need it), Krill oil in the am and Taurine (for extra safety, even though the need is debatable)....

Not sure if I am forgetting something..... Probably! :lol3:

Well, the phosphorus in the meat definitely needs to be balanced at a minimum with calcium, and in the not too far distant future, or you'll have problems with runny poop.

Easy and healthy, if you're not a meat purist, is, as Carolina writes, the Call of the Wild supplement by Wysong: http://www.wysong.net/products/cotw-dog-cat-supplement.php It only requires 1/2 teaspoon be added per 1.5 ounces of meat. I use this frequently for Lazlo, as he really doesn't like organs (though he does like the freeze dried beef liver. I also use Etta Says for him).

There are four forms of calcium:

1) bone-in meals, e.g. chicken wings (but when introducing, don't use the big one, just the two smaller pieces of the wing). These can be fed 3-4 times a week, I think, to get to the 10% bone.

2) My preference: Microcrystalline Calcium Hydroxyapatite (MCHA). This is freeze-dried bone. Freeze drying retains the nutritional profile of food intact. If you want to use this, buy the NOW calcium hydroxyapatite. Forget the math, we've already done it. You need 1/2 to 3/4 of a capsule for each ounce of meat (yes, the amount of phosphorus is different in different meats and different cuts of meats, but it balances out over time).

Organs (liver, kidney, pancreas) BASICALLY have about 50% more phosphorus than muscle meat (and Carolina forgot to mention that gizzards are also muscle meat equivalent, not secreting organs), so IF you feed raw liver or kidney (or whatever), you need to use a whole capsule to 1.5 capsules of MCHA per ounce of organ (though I never feed more than 0.5 ounces of organ in any meal. Too many organs at once and the cats tend to get diarrhea or get sick. Though some cats can't tolerate organs anyway. Sheldon can't keep any of them down, so like Carolina's kitties, I just give him freeze dried liver, and that works for him).

3) Eggshell. Because of the cost of feeding MCHA exclusively to 8 cats, I alternate each week between eggshell and MCHA. You need 1/32 teaspoon of eggshell powder to balance one ounce of meat (for a Ca ratio of 1.3:1). Carolina and I use this eggshell powder: http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/shop_online.html (Scroll down to the last product in the e-shop).

And we use these measuring spoons: The "smidgen" is 1/32 teaspoon; the "drop" is 1/64 teaspoon, so I use one smidgen and one drop of eggshell powder for the 1.5 ounce meals of meat. Again - for organs, it would be 3/64 teaspoon per ounce.

4) Bone meal powder. If you use this, buy human grade. I haven't done the work on it, because I feel the other calcium options are superior. This is usually bone from older animals, so greater risk of toxins, and it's made via high heat processing, which I feel degrades its nutritional value.


I personally also provide an omega 3 supplement. I use Pure Alaska Omega salmon oil. The dose I use now is half a capsule daily.
I use the Omega 3 because our meat is low in omega 3 compared to their natural prey, so this provides a better Omega 6: Omega 3 ratio. And omega 3s have a lot of health benefits overall anyway.

If I didn't have 8 cats, I would use krill oil for all of them. I am using it for four of them. Again - my restriction is cost. This is the krill oil I use: It is a softgel, so easy to puncture and squeeze onto their food. Flowerbelle hates it, so I just pill her with it (I don't have an issue piling most of my cats).

And I give them the probiotic daily.

Oh - I also give them taurine. Just as a precaution. Their diet should have plenty, but it's one of those things you can't overdo to their detriment. I use the NOW 1,000mg supplement, and split one capsule between the 8 cats every-other day. I don't think this is necessary, it's just something that increases my comfort level.

Princess Esme is transitioning to frankenprey, asked all of the same questions. You might want to peruse her thread for links for more thorough explanation, when you have time. :nod: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/247620/i-think-im-ready I THINK we start chatting about frankenprey on page 3? Maybe the end of page 2? Not sure...

As to proteins.

Yes, it's good to feed as many as they can eat - but it is best to introduce them slowly to avoid issues with stomach upset or diarrhea. Most kitties like chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, beef, rabbit - you can try pheasant, duck, quail, goat..... but it IS also important to use different cuts of meat. The nutritional profile of dark meat (legs or thighs) vs breast IS different. :nod: Hearts are PACKED with taurine.

I use chicken liver and beef kidney. Do avoid turkey liver - it's too high in vitamin A. For those that can't tolerate raw liver, I use freeze dried liver. I use Stewart's Pro-Treat, because I know it's raw:
I buy the beef kidney from Hare-Today. That's also where I source duck hearts and turkey hearts. Hearts are their absolute favorite meal. Turkey hearts may take more of a stomach than you have, but the duck hearts you can just spoon out - they're little and basically ready-to-go. :nod: But kidney smells like pee. :lol3:

http://www.hare-today.com

If you're up to cutting meat off a rabbit, she sells whole rabbit for a reasonable price, but it is an expensive meat to feed. :nod: That said, rabbit ribs are good starter bones for kitties. :nod:

She also sells boneless turkey thigh cubes. VERY convenient. They do require some trimming as turkey thigh is fatty. But it's a heck of a lot easier than removing meat from a turkey bone (IMO). And she sells boneless pork trim - but it's expensive for what it is. It requires a LOT of trimming. I just buy boneless pork on sale at the supermarket. It always goes on sale when it's a few days away from it's expiration date, and I never pay more than $1.99 per pound for it. :lol3: In fact, the butcher at the supermarket now calls us when they have pork trim to put out - they only charge $0.89 per pound for that. It is fatty and takes a lot of trimming, but it's really worth it.

So, in sum...

Introduce new proteins slowly. Use an existing protein as a base. Gradually increase the amount of the new protein. When it's up to 100% (over a few days), use it as the new base to introduce a new protein. You can incorporate meals of already introduced proteins, and resume the introduction at the next meal.

I treat different cuts (thigh vs breast) as a new protein. It's just as important to include different parts of the animal as it is different animals.

Treat hearts and gizzards as new proteins, even if they're from an animal you've already introduced. (These are ALL of my cats favorite meals).

If raw liver and kidney is too much for you to deal with, use Call of the Wild, and don't worry about it all. OR use freeze dried liver. I decided I was comfortable with this when I realized that there are almost NO commercial raw cat foods that include any organ other than liver, and some are as much as 20% liver. So while the frankenprey guideline is 80% meat / 10% bone / 5% liver / 5% other secreting organ (and I alter to 90% meat, calcium supplement, 5% liver, 5% other secreting organ) - for the kitties that don't keep down liver or kidney, I don't worry about it, and I feed them freeze dried liver instead. I just guesstimate, and give them a piece or two of freeze dried liver basically every day. Spooky and Laz only like the Etta Says beef liver. The others get the Stewart Pro-treat chicken liver. Oh - I also use the Etta Says lamb liver.

This is what Carolina uses from Etta Says: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001O2QWWI/?tag=&tag=thecatsite

This is what I use in addition to the Stewart's Pro-treat chicken livers: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001O2QWW8/?tag=&tag=thecatsite

and

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001O2QWWS/?tag=&tag=thecatsite

Okay, I'm going to see if the store has that Now Calcium - if not, then I will order it online.  I don't want runny poo...  Can a cat get too much calcium?

I'm going to the store today and will pick up some more meat for the little bugger.  I will get more chicken and maybe some turkey today and see if the butcher man will cut it for me.  My sister has led me to a butcher guy who lives in her neighborhood so maybe I wont get looked at funny asking him to cut my meat for me.

Are  gizzards considered organ meats/muscle meats? Does it matter?  Can you get these at the regular store.  Gosh I feel lost. I'm sorry for the basic meat questions. 

Where on Earth do you get a secreting organ?  This sounds like it may be too much for me right now. Does that come in some freeze dried way?

I really wish Gus wasn't acting this way...But he really loves that chicken.

Sweetie, take a BIG, DEEP BREATH. Several of them, in fact. All of your questions were answered, so clearly you're in panic mode - and I do understand that. It's definitely harder for you than it was for Carolina and I because you're not a meat-eater. But this WILL be OK.

1) As I'm sure you know, nutritional deficiencies happen over time, not overnight. You don't balance your nutritional needs at every meal. So from that perspective, take another long, deep breath. You've got time to work this out.

2) Calcium. Yes, you can give a cat too much calcium. Calcium works in conjunction with phosphorus; these need to be properly balanced. It's not an overnight emergency. Meat is high in phosphorus and has almost no calcium in it. Too little calcium when feeding meat will result in diarrhea or soft poop. Too much calcium when feeding meat will result in constipation. The ratio of calcium to phosphorus (Ca ratio) should be between 1.0:1 and 1.5:1. What's right is an individual thing per cat. The amounts of calcium provided above target a Ca ratio of 1.3:1. If numbers are your thing, there is a thread that discusses the calcium needs, and I posted tables showing how much eggshell OR Now MCHA is needed to achieve various Ca ratios. For most people new to the process, it's more confusing that anything, which is why it's easier to just say "Use 1/32 teaspoon of eggshell powder per ounce of meat," or "Use 3/4 of a capsule of NOW calcium hydroxyapatite per ounce of meat." Half a capsule of NOW calcium hydroxyapatite is roughly a Ca ratio of 1.1:1; 3/4 of a capsule is a Ca ratio of about 1.3:1. My kitties get a little constipated on 3/4 of a capsule of NOW calcium hydroxyapatite; so I use about a half a capsule per ounce of meat. The 1/32 teaspoon of eggshell works. I'm not sure of the difference. Bioavailability of the calcium? :dk:

3) Gizzards are considered a muscle meat.

4) Yes, it matters whether something is an "organ" or a "muscle meat" (even if we think of it as an organ). It matters, because the phosphorus content is different, so how much calcium to use is different.

5) Don't worry about secreting organs right now. I provided links to everything. But you can go to a pet store (I don't know what the large chains have, if you have a locally-owned pet store it's more likely to carry what you need) and buy freeze dried liver. The most commonly available is liver, and this is what you need. My local pet store carries the Stewart's Pro-Treat Freeze Dried Liver. You will not be squeamish feeding your kitties (or just Gus) freeze dried liver, and most cats love it. Feed one piece a day for now, when you get it. Nothing drastic will happen to your cats if you don't start them on the FD liver for a little while.

I have to run, I hope this helps!