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Should I feed my cat dry or wet food? - Page 3

post #61 of 85
8/19/11 at 9:44pm


Could we please return to the thread topic? Please try to limit personal comments to PMs.
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post #62 of 85
8/20/11 at 3:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
It appears you have confused some posts and posters. I don't believe I said anything about the FDA, in fact, since I'm in Canada we don't have an "FDA".
Scroll up to post # 45, where regulation and the FDA was brought up, which I responded to in post # 46. It is confusing since so many simultaneous conversations are occurring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy
You've completely mis-characterized this conversation
I have said that there is a huge distinction between named meats in the ingredient list and mystery meat byproducts in response to the below statement which I have explained is wrong. There is in fact a huge difference in the definition of named meat and meat by-product.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea24
According to the AAFCO's definitions of an animal's meat and its by-products, there really isn't much of a distinction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlyn
Yes, there are indeed entire chickens, rabbits, ducks etc that go to pet food plants, but it certainly doesn't look edible, though I was told on my tour that 'most' of them were simply killed in transport accidentally.
How? who knows.

That, by definition, makes those animal By-products
Thank you for agreeing with me. Yes, that by definition makes them by-products. By law, "chicken" or "beef" or "duck" as used on an ingredients label on cat food cannot be from 4-D animals (4-D means animals that were dead, dying, diseased, or disabled at time of slaughter). They can be labeled by-products or meat meal or bone meal. That is why there is a huge distinction between named meats and mystery meat by-product meal as I said before, and why the statement "there really isn't much of a distinction" is incorrect.
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post #63 of 85
8/20/11 at 11:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
Scroll up to post # 45, where regulation and the FDA was brought up, which I responded to in post # 46. It is confusing since so many simultaneous conversations are occurring.

I have said that there is a huge distinction between named meats in the ingredient list and mystery meat byproducts in response to the below statement which I have explained is wrong. There is in fact a huge difference in the definition of named meat and meat by-product.


Thank you for agreeing with me. Yes, that by definition makes them by-products. By law, "chicken" or "beef" or "duck" as used on an ingredients label on cat food cannot be from 4-D animals (4-D means animals that were dead, dying, diseased, or disabled at time of slaughter). They can be labeled by-products or meat meal or bone meal. That is why there is a huge distinction between named meats and mystery meat by-product meal as I said before, and why the statement "there really isn't much of a distinction" is incorrect.
The definition also doesn't say that pet food includes the breast, thighs and drumsticks either. I never referred to mystery meat - I was talking specifically about chicken although I still stand by what I said even though you want to interpret it your way. Golly geez, I'm done.
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post #64 of 85
8/20/11 at 11:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea24 View Post
The definition also doesn't say that pet food includes the breast, thighs and drumsticks either.
To rehash since this has been addressed, you have been unable to demonstrate any factual evidence that ingredients labeld "chicken" in pet food is stripped of breast and leg meat, making your claim completely unsupported.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea24 View Post
I never referred to mystery meat
What kind of animal is a "poultry by-product", you remember saying that right? Did that meat come from a chicken, a turkey, a duck, what? Mystery meat has different regulations to named protein sources, which is why it matters to pay attention to what you're saying, even if it was unintentional. I'm not trying to be harsh, I'm just trying to be thorough in explaining why the ingredient "CHICKEN" and "POULTRY BY-PRODUCT" are worlds apart by law.
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post #65 of 85
8/21/11 at 12:41am
BornFreeUsa.org - "The better brands of pet food, such as many “super-premium,” “natural,” and “organic” varieties, do not use by-products. On the label, you’ll see one or more named meats among the first few ingredients, such as “turkey” or “lamb.” These meats are still mainly leftover scraps; in the case of poultry, bones are allowed, so “chicken” consists mainly of backs and frames—the spine and ribs, minus their expensive breast meat. The small amount of meat left on the bones is the meat in the pet food."
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post #66 of 85
8/21/11 at 6:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minka View Post
BornFreeUsa.org - "The better brands of pet food, such as many “super-premium,†“natural,†and “organic†varieties, do not use by-products. On the label, you’ll see one or more named meats among the first few ingredients, such as “turkey†or “lamb.†These meats are still mainly leftover scraps; in the case of poultry, bones are allowed, so “chicken†consists mainly of backs and frames—the spine and ribs, minus their expensive breast meat. The small amount of meat left on the bones is the meat in the pet food."
I agree with you. I look for foods with NO by-products. I honestly don't believe any of us will ever know exactly what is contained in by-products since the information is so well hidden by the manufacturers.
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post #67 of 85
8/21/11 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
I agree with you. I look for foods with NO by-products. I honestly don't believe any of us will ever know exactly what is contained in by-products since the information is so well hidden by the manufacturers.
I agree with you also, but actually the point of my post was that even ingredients like 'chicken', 'lamb' and 'beef' are only the remainders of the meat after the prime cuts have been removed. Better than breaks and feet, but still not very reassuring that we can't expect more truthful labels.
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post #68 of 85
8/23/11 at 9:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
Scroll up to post # 45, where regulation and the FDA was brought up, which I responded to in post # 46. It is confusing since so many simultaneous conversations are occurring. .
Yes, as I said, you have confused posts and posters - Auntie Crazy posted #45 not me.
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post #69 of 85
8/29/11 at 10:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
I agree with you. I look for foods with NO by-products. I honestly don't believe any of us will ever know exactly what is contained in by-products since the information is so well hidden by the manufacturers.
It seems to me that most "no by-product" choices seem to actually be higher in fat content than the choices that include by-products. While I do avoid foods with by-products as the primary ingredient, I prefer to give the the lower fat content choices over the no by-product choices.
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post #70 of 85
8/29/11 at 10:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottP View Post
It seems to me that most "no by-product" choices seem to actually be higher in fat content than the choices that include by-products. While I do avoid foods with by-products as the primary ingredient, I prefer to give the the lower fat content choices over the no by-product choices.
Cats actually need a pretty high fat content in their foods, Scott. I think it should be between 25 and 35% of the diet. Between that and the... character of by-products, you'd probably do better to go with the no by-product varieties.

AC
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post #71 of 85
8/30/11 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy View Post
Cats actually need a pretty high fat content in their foods, Scott. I think it should be between 25 and 35% of the diet. Between that and the... character of by-products, you'd probably do better to go with the no by-product varieties.

AC
That's the problem though. According to Binky's Nutrition page most of the "Premium", no by-product brands list fat as 50%-60% or more fat content. It's the brands/flavors that do contain by-products that drop the fat down into the 25%-35% range.

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html
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post #72 of 85
8/30/11 at 8:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottP View Post
That's the problem though. According to Binky's Nutrition page most of the "Premium", no by-product brands list fat as 50%-60% or more fat content. It's the brands/flavors that do contain by-products that drop the fat down into the 25%-35% range.

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html
That just doesn't sound right somehow. . .I'm going to do my own calculations, brb.

OK, I can't do all the calculations because I'm at work and don't have time right now, but Authority chicken (since it was first on the list) is listed on their website as having 10% protein and 6.5% fat. I know that has to be figured by dry matter basis, but even so I absolutely can't see how they can come up with 35% protein and 59% fat on the Binky page. I wonder if they got it backward? 59% protein and 35% fat?
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post #73 of 85
8/30/11 at 8:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
That just doesn't sound right somehow. . .I'm going to do my own calculations, brb.

OK, I can't do all the calculations because I'm at work and don't have time right now, but Authority chicken (since it was first on the list) is listed on their website as having 10% protein and 6.5% fat. I know that has to be figured by dry matter basis, but even so I absolutely can't see how they can come up with 35% protein and 59% fat on the Binky page. I wonder if they got it backward? 59% protein and 35% fat?
Binky's page lists the amount of calories from fat/protein/carbs. Fat is much higher in calories than protein, thus it is listed as a much higher amount.

Dry matter basis would have the Authority Chicken at:

Protein: 45.45% DMB
Fat: 29.54% DMB
Carb: 7.80% DMB
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post #74 of 85
8/30/11 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottP View Post
That's the problem though. According to Binky's Nutrition page most of the "Premium", no by-product brands list fat as 50%-60% or more fat content. It's the brands/flavors that do contain by-products that drop the fat down into the 25%-35% range.

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html
As a % per Kcal, not by weight, which is fine. Cats should be getting most of their calories from protein and fat.

Protein isn't protein, as there's protein from say chicken, and cheaper incomplete proteins like wheat, soy, or corn gluten. Chicken, particularly the commercial ones that are fattened up quickly, are going to have more fat than the cheaper proteins, so the premium foods are usually higher in fat. It definitely raises calories, but as long as there is plenty of good protein, you just adjust feeding size accordingly, and I know when fat isn't high enough in foods the kitties tend to get a dull coat.
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post #75 of 85
8/30/11 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by furryfriends50 View Post
Binky's page lists the amount of calories from fat/protein/carbs. Fat is much higher in calories than protein, thus it is listed as a much higher amount.
This is correct. I should have been more specific. I think Protein adds 3.5-4 calories per gram while fat adds 8.5-9 calories per gram. Still this means they will be taking in more calories from fat than from proteins in most of those so called premium foods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
As a % per Kcal, not by weight, which is fine. Cats should be getting most of their calories from protein and fat.

Protein isn't protein, as there's protein from say chicken, and cheaper incomplete proteins like wheat, soy, or corn gluten. Chicken, particularly the commercial ones that are fattened up quickly, are going to have more fat than the cheaper proteins, so the premium foods are usually higher in fat. It definitely raises calories, but as long as there is plenty of good protein, you just adjust feeding size accordingly, and I know when fat isn't high enough in foods the kitties tend to get a dull coat.
I agree protein isn't protein. As long as the food has NO GRAINS in it, then you are looking at calories from meat based protein vs. calories from meat based fat. I still say protein from chicken by-products is better than chicken fat.
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post #76 of 85
8/30/11 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottP View Post
This is correct. I should have been more specific. I think Protein adds 3.5-4 calories per gram while fat adds 8.5-9 calories per gram. Still this means they will be taking in more calories from fat than from proteins in most of those so called premium foods.



I agree protein isn't protein. As long as the food has NO GRAINS in it, then you are looking at calories from meat based protein vs. calories from meat based fat. I still say protein from chicken by-products is better than chicken fat.
Let's make a pretend scenario and say that a food has 40% protein and 35% fat. Let's also say that is an ideal diet for a cat (as far as canned goes). It doesn't Matter whether they are getting more calories from the fat because the percentages for a healthy cat are correct.
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post #77 of 85
8/30/11 at 2:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minka View Post
Let's make a pretend scenario and say that a food has 40% protein and 35% fat. Let's also say that is an ideal diet for a cat (as far as canned goes). It doesn't Matter whether they are getting more calories from the fat because the percentages for a healthy cat are correct.
Totally! You measure the ingredients by percentages and ONLY the overall amount by calories (if you even measure by calories, which I don't).

AC
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post #78 of 85
8/30/11 at 2:29pm
Even Friskies patè flavors have the same stats as the higher-quality foods (of course the quality of the protein isn't as good). The only ones with lower amounts of fat are the "shredded" or "chunky" foods, because they have a lot of carb-filled gravy. Cats are made to have fats. . .and fat doesn't make cats fat (ironically). Carbs make cats fat.
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post #79 of 85
8/30/11 at 7:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minka View Post
Let's make a pretend scenario and say that a food has 40% protein and 35% fat. Let's also say that is an ideal diet for a cat (as far as canned goes). It doesn't Matter whether they are getting more calories from the fat because the percentages for a healthy cat are correct.
Great, does anyone know what the proper %'s are for an "ideal diet"? I still doubt that having less meat based protein and more meat based fat is "better". Once again cats are designed to live off of mice and small birds which seems like both would have very little fat content per protein content. /shrug I am not a mouse nutritionist though.

By-products can't be all bad, I am sure you have eaten hot dogs, Vienna sausages, or some other potted meat which is all made with "by-products". Is that better than lean beef? No. But it is better than eating the fat that was trimmed off of the beef to make it lean. Either way there is a lot of studies that need to be done in pet nutrition and a LOT of work that needs to be done in the pet food industry. Proper labeling would help a lot but without know for sure what the proper amounts of each nutrient would be optimal even good labels would only be marginally helpful.
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post #80 of 85
8/30/11 at 8:02pm
Cats need animal fat. Humans don't. It's not really comparable.
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post #81 of 85
8/30/11 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
Cats need animal fat. Humans don't. It's not really comparable.
It's totally not, Scott.

I'd recommend a look at the Feline-Nutrition.org site. It's chock full of nutritional and health-related information. You mind find the articles, "Your Cat's Nutritional Needs: The Basics" and "Reading a Pet Food Ingredient Label" to be of particular interest.

AC
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post #82 of 85
8/30/11 at 8:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottP View Post
Great, does anyone know what the proper %'s are for an "ideal diet"? I still doubt that having less meat based protein and more meat based fat is "better". Once again cats are designed to live off of mice and small birds which seems like both would have very little fat content per protein content. /shrug I am not a mouse nutritionist though.

By-products can't be all bad, I am sure you have eaten hot dogs, Vienna sausages, or some other potted meat which is all made with "by-products". Is that better than lean beef? No. But it is better than eating the fat that was trimmed off of the beef to make it lean. Either way there is a lot of studies that need to be done in pet nutrition and a LOT of work that needs to be done in the pet food industry. Proper labeling would help a lot but without know for sure what the proper amounts of each nutrient would be optimal even good labels would only be marginally helpful.
But I just gave you an example where the canned food Does have more protein than fat. Just because the fat is converted differently doesn't matter.

And just because some of us may have eaten hotdogs before doesn't mean they are good for us. In fact there was a study just posted here that showed eating hotdogs contributed to cancer.
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post #83 of 85
8/30/11 at 10:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottP View Post
Great, does anyone know what the proper %'s are for an "ideal diet"? I still doubt that having less meat based protein and more meat based fat is "better". Once again cats are designed to live off of mice and small birds which seems like both would have very little fat content per protein content. /shrug I am not a mouse nutritionist though.
ScottP, maybe you will find this chart helpful: http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp It has the makeup of many animals, including mice, which is already converted onto a dry matter basis (DMB).
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post #84 of 85
8/30/11 at 10:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by furryfriends50 View Post
ScottP, maybe you will find this chart helpful: http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp It has the makeup of many animals, including mice, which is already converted onto a dry matter basis (DMB).
That's an AWESOME chart, FurryFriends; I used it myself when I first started learning about raw to make sure what I was feeding balanced out where it should. I can't believe I forgot about it!

Great post!

AC
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post #85 of 85
10/16/11 at 7:36pm
I'm just reading this thread now, and wanted to say thank you to everyone for the POVs and information. Very helpful, as I am deciding a feeding plan for my new kitty!
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