Wet vs Dry - The Epic Debate

Originally Posted by NutroMike

Oh gosh, I didn't mean to imply there aren't risks. I think there can be risk with just about any diet one may undertake for their kittys. Nor did I mean to sound dismissive. *sigh* the written communications can sometimes get confused

There are probably risk factors on cats with an all kibble diet, cats with a wet diet or cats on a raw diet. What I find unsettling is that some people tend to believe their way is the only way to feed a cat and become rather aggressive trying to get their point across. Personally I feel that if it's working, the cat is healthy, don't change it.

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No worries, things can get lost in text. Sorry for misunderstanding.
I do agree that the diet that keeps an individual cat healthy is the best diet for that cat. I guess like you, I'm also just going by my experience. I'm so passionate about the types of food I feed (grain-free and raw) because they're the only foods Athena has been healthy on.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

There are also risks for raw, as it is up to the individual preparer to prepare the food properly and with sufficient variety for a complete and balanced diet, and there are sanitation concerns for the pet and the preparer. This is why that although it can be a very healthy diet, some veterinarians are very much opposed to it, as they have likely encountered some that come in, don't know what they are doing (feed cooked bones, or no organs, or grind the meat up, or just use rabbit etc), and have one very sick kitty.

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Certainly, and this is why I'm sure even vets who support raw get very wary about advocating homemade raw diets. Not everyone is going to do it properly and that can be dangerous. Although there's also commercial premade raw which helps with that issue. I feed mostly that because I fret about balancing a homemade diet properly (and can't find enough organ variety). While this too does still require more careful handling than most commercial food, it's definitely a lot easier than homemade. Obviously of course with commercial raw you have the same potential concerns as with any commercial food (trusting the manufacturer to do things properly) and there are certainly some brands I much prefer and trust over others. For example, I know Nature's Variety has had at least one recall. I also don't like that NV uses the same formula for both dogs and cats as this doesn't acknowledge that they have slightly different nutritional requirements. On the other hand I've been pretty pleased with, say, Primal so far, because it has a lower carb content and formulas made specifically for cats. But they're not perfect either (I once got a batch that was accidentally too high in veggies and the cats wouldn't touch it).

So you're right, there are pros and cons to everything. I guess ultimately it's up to the individual owner to decide which pros they feel outweigh which cons/risks.

My issue with this statement is still that it just states "kibble". As if ALL kibble is 100% exactly the same, which I've clearly demonstrated is not true.

The only thing that all kibble has in common is that its around 9-11% moisture. There are no other universal similarities.

Most digestive upset issues do not deal with moisture content, but ingredients like chicken, soy, wheat, corn, etc. and that varies brand to brand.

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Well, it was mostly the moisture issue that I was referring to. I know that alone is enough to sway a lot of people away from it, and it was one of the original factors in making me wonder if I should stop feeding it.

But as for digestive sensitivities, I disagree. While not all kibble contains the same ingredients, all kibble does have a high carb content and a high level of processing, by the very nature of the process used to make it. Those two factors specifically are what seem to cause digestive upset in Athena. Since I've tried her on grain-free kibble. Even kibble without corn, soy, or wheat cause her problems. Her system just does not seem to react well to highly processed foods.

And if we were to compare overall use regarding what "so many feed", kibble is by far the dominant food choice for kitties, although I believe that to be far more a cost (as was seen, even the most expensive kibble is fractions of the cost of the poorest quality wet) and convenience factor than anything else.

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True, but as you say, just because it is what most feed does not really have any bearing on its quality as a food. Most US citizens eat diets fairly low in fresh vegetables. Does this mean a diet low in veggies is healthier? Of course not: it's simply reflective of the fact that most people are not hyper-concerned about nutrition. Most just eat what is easy, cost effective, and tastes good. And that extends to pet food, as you say, most families don't go on cat forums and research their cats' food in great detail. They buy what's on sale at the grocery store and assume that because it is labelled "cat food" it should be fine.
The convenience factor is obviously a big one too. Honestly if Athena could still eat kibble, I may have kept some around for overnight trips, so I understand that. It was only her severe reaction to it that really convinced me it needed to go. Apollo does just fine on it, but having one cat react so poorly to it has made me uneasy about feeding it to either.

Obviously use what works best, and I see no major health concerns with an all wet or all raw diet.

I just find it can be expensive and impractical for many, and ultimately unnecessary if dietary and moisture needs are met by other means.

Originally Posted by saitenyo

While not all kibble contains the same ingredients, all kibble does have a high carb content and a high level of processing, by the very nature of the process used to make it.

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Manufacturers do not list the carb content of their food, however, you can deduce it by looking at the calories, protein, and fat on a dry matter basis and compare it to wet. I had done that, and it demonstrates those dry foods are low carb.

How else are you measuring it if not reducing it to a dry matter basis and subtracting protein, fat, and ash from the total to guesstimate carbs, and then taking into account ingredients to measure the quality of the protein source?

Originally Posted by saitenyo

I do agree that the diet that keeps an individual cat healthy is the best diet for that cat. I guess like you, I'm also just going by my experience. I'm so passionate about the types of food I feed (grain-free and raw) because they're the only foods Athena has been healthy on.

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It seems to me that is exactly how most people come to question whether food type X, be it dry foods or processed foods in general, are really healthy. They start out feeding food type X and for a time kitty seems to do great. Then kitty gets sick. The vet bills pile up. Maybe they are told kitty has to eat a prescription food for the rest of its life. Or kitty is given countless medications with little or no relief. Then they do some on line research and learn that people have successfully treated the same illness by simply eliminating dry foods or by switching from processed foods to raw food. They try that route, kitty gets well and there's a new convert!

Unfortunately kitty has to get sick first. I'm starting to think that isn't as bad scenario as it at first seems. An expression I've become fond of is "The more I know the more I realize how little I know." For me that is definitely true of cat nutrition. I think there are so many questions that no one has the answer to (although there are certainly no lack of people who think they have all the answers) that there's really little point in trying to convince anyone that food Y, whatever it is, is the best.

What I would like to see change in the short term is more willingness on the part of veterinarians to use a change in diet other than a change to a prescription food as a means to treat ailments that have been shown, however anecdotally, to resolve those ailments. But that would require that they receive much more training in nutrition than they typically get now.

I know my cats would have been spared a lot of needless suffering if my vet had been able to discuss the benefits of raw food with me and I would have very much appreciated having her guidance rather than having to rely on a bunch of strangers on the internet.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Manufacturers do not list the carb content of their food, however, you can deduce it by looking at the calories, protein, and fat on a dry matter basis and compare it to wet. I had done that, and it demonstrates those dry foods are low carb.

How else are you measuring it if not reducing it to a dry matter basis and subtracting protein, fat, and ash from the total to guesstimate carbs, and then taking into account ingredients to measure the quality of the protein source?

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Which dry foods? I agree there are some dry foods that are lower carb than others, but from what I've found, any dry food still seems to be higher carb than a low-carb raw food. Obviously a food that is made mostly of meat, bone, and organ with small vegetable supplementation is going to inevitably be lower carb than a food that requires starches to help maintain its form. I know there are ways to make dried/dehydrated high-protein dry foods even using raw meat (I use these when I do have to leave food out overnight) but they're fairly expensive (way moreso than even grain-free canned or commercial raw), from what I've found. And I'm not sure what the carb content of those is compared to kibble. I know Athena can tolerate one occasional meal of dehydrated raw much better than she can kibble...but I've never fed it long-term (since it's not recommended to be fed as a regular diet and regular raw is cheaper and more nutritionally complete).

But regardless, clearly there is something about even supposedly great kibbles, be it the carbs, other fillers, or the cooking of the meat that is not sitting well with her system.

Originally Posted by saitenyo

Which dry foods? I agree there are some dry foods that are lower carb than others, but from what I've found, any dry food still seems to be higher carb than a low-carb raw food.

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"Low" is subjective. For me a "low carb" cat food is < 5% carbs. There are no dry cat foods currently on the market that fit that criteria.

Originally Posted by mschauer

"Low" is subjective. For me a "low carb" cat food is < 5% carbs. There are no dry cat foods currently on the market that fit that criteria.

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Please compare wet and dry foods on a dry matter basis as I have done, and show us your results. Low is not subjective if you are comparing commercial wet foods to commercial dry foods. Either they are similar or they are not, and if a food is considerably lower carb than other recipe foods, then one would naturally be considered high and the other low as its all relative to the norm.

Originally Posted by saitenyo

Which dry foods? I agree there are some dry foods that are lower carb than others, but from what I've found, any dry food still seems to be higher carb than a low-carb raw food.

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Its the very first post in this thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...71&postcount=1 The numbers don't lie.

I can only compare commercial dry to commercial wet though. Raw wasn't part of the discussion and doesn't test and publish the results.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Please compare wet and dry foods on a dry matter basis as I have done, and show us your results. Low is not subjective if you are comparing commercial wet foods to commercial dry foods.

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My statement stands. I am not "comparing" anything.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Please compare wet and dry foods on a dry matter basis as I have done, and show us your results. Low is not subjective if you are comparing commercial wet foods to commercial dry foods. Either they are similar or they are not, and if a food is considerably lower carb than other recipe foods, then one would naturally be considered high and the other low as its all relative to the norm.

Its the very first post in this thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...71&postcount=1 The numbers don't lie.

I can only compare commercial dry to commercial wet though. Raw wasn't part of the discussion and doesn't test and publish the results.

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But I'm not seeing carbs in that comparison. Just protein, fat, and fiber. Am I missing something?

Here is a table where someone has done as you have (calculated percentages on a dry matter basis), with a wide variety of foods, and includes carb listings: http://binkyspage.tripod.com/dryfood.html
Nothing there is under 5% as far as I can see. The lowest (Nature's Variety Instinct) is 7, but most others are above 10. Even Wellness Core is 11. When you compare that to canned foods: http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html You will see that yes, there are some dry foods that have a lower carb content than some canned foods, but no dry foods that get as low as canned foods do. And no dry food on that list contains a low enough carb content that I would be willing to feed it. I personally wouldn't feed a lot of the canned foods on that list either, but that doesn't mean that dry is "just as good as" canned, it just means that there are lesser quality foods available with both options, but at least there are some canned foods that have an adequately low carb content, plus obviously always more moisture than dry foods.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "raw doesn't test and publish results?" There are raw foods on that list too. And several other sources where you can find the carb content in raw foods. Unless you meant homemade raw.

Originally Posted by saitenyo

But I'm not seeing carbs in that comparison. Just protein, fat, and fiber. Am I missing something?

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Yes, you guesstimate it using process of elimination as stated. What is not protein, fat, or ash is carb... the fiber too, although there is no point in calculating that kind of carb as it passes right through the body.

Originally Posted by mschauer

My statement stands. I am not "comparing" anything.

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Then commercial wet food is also "high-carb"!!! And if there is no difference, then the discussion between all commercial wet food vs half-half commercial wet and quality dry is moot. Of course commercial wet food isn't going to be as low carb as raw (most have potato, rice, carrots, etc to help hit urine PH targets and for cost savings).

Now when you look at a dry kibble like friskies indoor feast for example on a dry matter basis:
Friskies Indoor Feast Dry
Crude Protein (Min)34.0 %
Crude Fat (Min)10.0 %
Crude Fiber (Max)5.6 %
Main Ingredients: Ground yellow corn, corn gluten meal, chicken by-product meal, meat and bone meal, soybean meal, beef tallow, turkey by-product meal, powdered cellulose, animal liver flavor, soybean hulls, malt extract, phosphoric acid, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, salt...

Now THAT you can see that not only are the protein sources poor with the main ingredients being corn, with some byproduct and mystery meat and bone meal (horrible) and some soy thrown in, but the overall protein level is still quite low. Calculating carb on that shows it to be much higher than the other dry and wets shown. THAT is a high-carb, low-fat, relatively high fiber, and low-meat protein diet. Any many people free feed it, which combined w/ the formula can cause many cats to overconsume, and if no wet is provided w/ perhaps no constant water supply or at best a bit of stagnant water right next to the dry is the kind of recipe people complain about.

It is not at all similar to:
Evo Turkey and Chicken Dry
Main Ingredients: Turkey, Chicken Meal, Chicken, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat, Peas, Eggs, Turkey Meal, Pea Fiber, Natural Flavors...
On a dry matter basis:
Crude Protein 55%
Crude Fat 24%
Crude Fiber 2.2%

Which on a dry matter basis is not dissimilar to:
Wellness Chicken Wet
Main Ingredients:Chicken, Chicken Liver, Turkey, Chicken Broth, Carrots, Natural Chicken Flavor, Sweet Potatoes, Squash, Zucchini, Cranberries, Blueberries, Guar Gum, Dicalcium Phosphate, Carrageenan, Ground Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate...
Crude Protein 45.0%
Crude Fat\t22.0%
Crude Fiber\t 4.5%

In fact, the Evo has more meat protein and fat and less veggies and fiber than Wellness wet. And yes, I see your chart now, and as you can see some wet food has carb levels as high as 44% and some dry food has carb levels as low as 7%. As I said, not all wet food is low carb and not all dry food is high carb. That's been my point from the beginning, not to compare it to rawwww....

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Then commercial wet food is also "high-carb"!!! And if there is no difference, then the discussion between all commercial wet food vs half-half commercial wet and dry is moot.

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The statement I made was what I personally consider to be the definition of a "low carb" cat food. Nothing more.

Geez, is there nothing yoou won't argue about!

Originally Posted by mschauer

The statement I made was what I personally consider to be the definition of a "low carb" cat food. Nothing more.

Geez, is there nothing yoou won't argue about!

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OK, fair enough, but you can understand where I am coming from though too.

The entire context of this thread is comparing an all wet commercial diet with a partial wet and partial quality dry commercial diet.

*let us bump respect knuckles and proceed on with our day*

Originally Posted by Ducman69

And yes, I see your chart now, and as you can see some wet food has carb levels as high as 44% and some dry food has carb levels as low as 7%. As I said, not all wet food is low carb and not all dry food is high carb. That's been my point from the beginning, not to compare it to rawwww....

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Right and I wouldn't feed those high-carb wet foods either. If you're arguing against the argument that all wet food is always better than all dry food, I agree that is simplifying things too much. But I don't think that means that you can then say, certain dry foods are better than any wet food. There are some dry foods that are lower carb than some wet foods, but no dry foods that are lower carb than the lowest carb wet foods, is my point. And no dry foods that are low enough carb that I would be comfortable feeding them.

To me, 11 is high-carb. Or at least higher carb than I would like in a cat food. 7 is borderline and considering I can get wet foods that contain fewer carbs which have added benefits like more moisture, I'd rather go with the wet.

My point is that the lowest carb dry foods are still higher carb than the lowest carb wet foods, so if we're going to go the "premium low carb grain free higher price" route anyway, why choose a dry food over a lower-carb wet food?

I wouldn't choose 9 Lives Wet over Wellness Core Dry, sure, but that doesn't mean I want to feed Wellness Core Dry. I'd rather feed the grain-free varieties of Wellness wet over either of them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't see the point in pointing out that some higher-quality dry foods are better than lower-quality wet foods, when it's clear that higher-quality wet foods are still better than even high-quality dry foods. I'm not sure I understand what point you're trying to make, beyond that some wet foods aren't great either, which I will agree on.

I personally WOULD choose the crappiest wet food over the "highest quality" dry.

The lowest quality wet food can easily have less carbs than the low carb dry food. Plus, the food will be more digestable, and you aren't dehydrating the cat.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

There are also risks for raw, as it is up to the individual preparer to prepare the food properly and with sufficient variety for a complete and balanced diet, and there are sanitation concerns for the pet and the preparer. This is why that although it can be a very healthy diet, some veterinarians are very much opposed to it, as they have likely encountered some that come in, don't know what they are doing (feed cooked bones, or no organs, or grind the meat up, or just use rabbit etc), and have one very sick kitty.

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I see this argument over and over and I really don't get it. There are tons of pets who require fresh veggies, live foods, etc, who don't have commercial kibbles available, millions of owners who are researching, preparing and feeding their own pets. My iguana has specific needs for certain calcium, phos., etc levels for a healthy balanced diet and I'm not killing myself trying to balance anything, I just feed a wide variety of healthy veggies and greens, just like you would feed a carnivore a variety of proteins. Iguana's are recommended a certain amount of veggies vs. greens vs. fruits., just like carnivores need organs and roughage and bone. It's really not rocket science and I've handled meat like a big girl for many years, not to mention the veggies, the iguana and my mouse colony, all well known to carry bacteria, as does kibble. Of course people can do it wrong, just like with any diet, my cat was one sick kitty throwing up multiple times a week on vet recommended SD kibble, you know not once in 5 years of seeing her did he ever suggest a switch to canned or even just a grain free kibble? Being a vet doesn't mean they are experienced with nutrition.

Originally Posted by furryfriends50

I personally WOULD choose the crappiest wet food over the "highest quality" dry.

The lowest quality wet food can easily have less carbs than the low carb dry food.

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You're going to make me suffer a stroke.

Beyond the numbers I have already posted, saitenyo posted these pages:
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/dryfood.html
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html

There are very few premium or grain-free kibbles listed there, but as an example as % of total calories:
Wellness Core Dry:
Protein: 47
Fat: 42
Carbs 11

Nature's Variety Raw Instinct Dry:
Protein: 45
Fat: 49
Carbs 7

Hills Science Adult Wet:
Protein: 34
Fat: 33
Carbs 33

Innova Chicken & Brown Rice Wet:
Protein: 33
Fat: 53
Carbs 14

9-lives Tender Carvings Wet:
Protein: 43
Fat: 31
Carbs 25

Royal Canin Calorie Control Wet:
Protein: 28
Fat: 44
Carbs 28

Special Kitty Wet Sliced Beef Wet:
Protein: 44
Fat: 32
Carbs 24

Care to rephrase that statement?

Nope

You couldn't pay me to feed any of my cats dry food Don't care, at all, about the "quality". There is no way I'd allow my cats to eat such a thing!

How about feeding something that is LOWER priced than Science Diet? Such as Friskies Poultry Platter which is 11% carbs on a Dry Matter Basis (which you didn't convert the numbers into)?

Originally Posted by furryfriends50

How about feeding something that is LOWER priced than Science Diet? Such as Friskies Poultry Platter which is 11% carbs on a Dry Matter Basis (which you didn't convert the numbers into)?

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Don't forget that percetages are only HALF of the story. Look at the ingredients:

Friskies Poultry Platter:
Turkey, poultry by-products, water sufficient for processing, meat by-products, liver, fish, rice, artificial and natural flavors, guar gum, potassium chloride, carrageenan, salt...

vs

the Dry grain-free food with:
Turkey, Chicken Meal, Chicken, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat, Peas, Eggs, Turkey Meal, Pea Fiber, Natural Flavors.. (first ingredients are all meats, and no mystery potentially 4-D meat or artificial preservatives and flavorings)

And remember we showed that even the most expensive dry foods are still MUCH cheaper than the cheapest wet foods, calorie for calorie. Not saying I would recommend exclusive dry, and I never do, but for someone on a budget, I would definitely recommend supplementing part of the diet with a quality kibble.

Like I said you couldn't PAY ME to feed my cat dry food. No way, no how. Which you seem to have a hard time to understand. It is my decision not yours

Hey, if what you are so incredibly worried about is price, lets think about this for a second.

I feed my cats a raw diet at the cost of roughly $0.33 a day per cat in the winter or $0.25 per cat in the summer. All the meat I use I buy from the grocery store. Or you could say $7.50-$10 a month for one cat.

Or I have one cat who refuses to eat raw so he gets a diet of all canned which is all grain free and high end brands. Total cost is about $25 per month.

Average vet bill for a UTI (from eating a diet lacking in moisture aka dry food) is roughly $400 at the cheapest. If cat is blocked/has to have surgery it could easily run to $1300. Yeah, what is cheaper in the long run?

And you are right, percentages are half of the story. The protein you mention? It isn't JUST meat protein that they count in dry food. So even if one is feeding something like Friskies Poulty Platter it is almost all meat. Yes, some meat by-products in there, but that is STILL meat.

So let's just agree to disagree okay? Obviously, you are NOT going to be able to change my opinion, and I'm not going to be able to change yours.

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

I see this argument over and over and I really don't get it. There are tons of pets who require fresh veggies, live foods, etc, who don't have commercial kibbles available, millions of owners who are researching, preparing and feeding their own pets. My iguana has specific needs for certain calcium, phos., etc levels for a healthy balanced diet and I'm not killing myself trying to balance anything, I just feed a wide variety of healthy veggies and greens, just like you would feed a carnivore a variety of proteins. Iguana's are recommended a certain amount of veggies vs. greens vs. fruits., just like carnivores need organs and roughage and bone. It's really not rocket science and I've handled meat like a big girl for many years, not to mention the veggies, the iguana and my mouse colony, all well known to carry bacteria, as does kibble. Of course people can do it wrong, just like with any diet, my cat was one sick kitty throwing up multiple times a week on vet recommended SD kibble, you know not once in 5 years of seeing her did he ever suggest a switch to canned or even just a grain free kibble? Being a vet doesn't mean they are experienced with nutrition.

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A cat is not an iguana though.

Cats have extremely specific nutritional needs. If they are not properly met, cat gets sick. You can't just throw down meat, organ, and bone, and figure they'll be fine. Ratio is extremely important. Too much of something, cat gets sick. (vitamin A toxicity, for instance, or too much phosphorous) too little of something cat gets sick (not enough vitamin B, taurine deficiency)

It is "rocket science" in a way. If you don't do it right, the cat will crash.

And preparing homemade cat food is a lot easier to NOT do it right, than it is to do it right

Originally Posted by Ducman69

And remember we showed that even the most expensive dry foods are still MUCH cheaper than the cheapest wet foods, calorie for calorie. Not saying I would recommend exclusive dry, and I never do, but for someone on a budget, I would definitely recommend supplementing part of the diet with a quality kibble.

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Sorry but I can't see how this is possibly true. Maybe it depends on where you buy the food, but I have actually done price comparisons of different diets and a combo of high-quality grain-free dry and wet is slightly cheaper than high-quality grain-free wet.

Using the prices at my local PetCo, and the amounts I feed my cats per day, a half-and-half wet/dry diet (of Wellness Core dry, with rotations of Merrick, Wellness, and Blue Wilderness canned) comes out to $0.92 cheaper per week for one cat, than only canned using the same canned foods. Per month that comes out to a savings of about $3.99.

If someone is concerned enough about their cats' health to be feeding grain-free foods, then $4 a month shouldn't be a big deal. If someone is truly in a financially tight spot, then $4 a month probably isn't going to make a big impact on their budget regardless.

And if grain-free quality dry kibble is only $4 less per month than grain-free wet, then I can't imagine that it's actually cheaper (let alone much cheaper, as you claim) than feeding low quality canned.

And here, I did the math using 9 Lives (the cheapest food I could find on PetCo's site) canned food, and compared to to feeding a diet of only Wellness Core kibble, by itself. The kibble-only diet of Core is actually $1.28 more per month than the 9 Lives Wet. A combo Core/grain-free canned diet as mentioned above is $20.28 more per month than the 9 Lives canned.
A half-and-half 9 Lives canned with Wellness Core kibble diet is still $14.56 per month more than an only 9 Lives canned diet.

And all if this is even factoring in that due to the lower nutritional value of 9 Lives compared to Wellness, you're feeding 2 cans of 9 Lives per day vs. 1 can of Wellness.

So, sorry, no matter how you try to argue it, cheap ingredients generally = cheaper food. Grain-free kibble is cheaper than grain-free canned, but that does not in any way make it cheap in general, and certainly not cheaper than the cheapest wet. If someone is on a serious budget to the point where they cannot afford grain-free canned food, I doubt they can afford to feed a combo grain-free canned/kibble diet either. If someone can afford to feed a combo diet of grain-free kibble, then they can also afford to feed just grain-free canned.

Feeding just grain-free kibble by itself, with no canned, is significantly cheaper than feeding just grain-free canned (my math came out to $24.27 per month) but since you agree that a kibble-only diet isn't healthy, that's a moot point. And Core kibble only is still $2 more a month than 9 Lives canned.

All this said, I personally would never feed 9 Lives, no matter how much cheaper it is. Just point out that your assumptions about grain-free kibble being so cheap are off. Grain-free kibble is close enough to grain-free canned that if someone is going to do a combo grain-free canned and kibble diet anyway, they might as well help their cat and just drop the kibble, because they're barely saving any money.