Booboo is confusingly not well

otto · Mar 16, 2010

Aw...don't worry. Please trust us, it is not as bad as it seems. I've given sub q fluids not only to my CRF kitty Ootay (rb 5/09) but to Tolly, Mazy and Jennie, too, when they were sick and needed fluids.

I've also given fluids to my mother's cats.

The # 18 needle is a common size to use, because the flow of fluids is faster. A #21 is much smaller, but also slows down the flow.

It doesn't take most cats long to make the connection between getting fluids and feeling better.

The prick of the needle does not really cause that much pain, once it's through the skin it no longer hurts at all.

Cats can get used to most anything, if it's done right. Remember, the fluids are cold, when given at the vet. Doing it at home, you can warm the bag to BooBoo's body temperature, and once the needle is in, he'll hardly even feel a thing.

I understand your stress. The first few months when I started with Ootay were terrible. But it got easier as time went on, I got better at it, and she made the connection between getting fluids and feeling better, and she learned to trust me when doing it.

I did get very stressed at first, and had to do stress reducing things before starting a session as I didn't want her to feel my stress.

You can do this, you can. It's for BooBoo. We will help you.

blueyedgirl5946 · Mar 16, 2010

So how often are they recommending the fluids for Boo Boo.

clpeters23 · Mar 16, 2010

otto;2838592 said:
Me too. Took 7 years and four practices, the fifth practice was the charm, and out of the six staff vets, I finally found my dream vet.QUOTE]

Many years ago I had a cat with chronic diarrhea and went to at least 7 vets before I found one that knew what was going on. That experience taught me to educate myself as much as I could and be proactive in the treatment plan.

mews2much · Mar 16, 2010

I use the 18 G needles for Coco and they work fine.
Many people use the 18 G.
It is not bad at all.
The blood pressure is important.
My Coco has high bp and she takes Norvasc for it.
Anemia is common in CRF cats also.
Stripe my CRF cat that I lost would need blood transfusions because the anemia was so bad.
BTW my Coco just sits there and purrs when she gets the fluids.
I hope you can change vets.
Your vet sounds like a jerk.

mrsgreenjeens · Mar 16, 2010

Snickerdoodle, for BooBoo's constipation, I HIGHLY recommend Miralax. My CRF kitty is on it, and it's a Godsend! For literally years, my Sven suffered and strained and nothing helped (he would not eat pumpkin or Laxatone, even the lactulose prescribed by the Vet stopped working after just a short time). I asked our Vet about Miralax after doing much investigating, and she was unaware of it, but checked into it and said "ok", so we immediately tried him on it and he has been regular ever since. This was back in October! We give it to him twice a day, just mix it with 1.5 cc of water and shoot it into his mouth (since he doesn't eat wet food). He doesn't even mind taking it because I think he knows it's purpose, smart kitty!!

As for the Sub-q fluids, I agree with everyone else, it will become easy for you, and BooBoo, once he realized that it's making him feel better, and once YOU are the one doing it, since you love him so. It's different than having a technician who doesn't show him love and affection while they are doing it. I think he'll react differently when it's you doing it, but you might want to have another pair of hands available the first few times, since it's kind of tricky getting the flow started while making sure he doesn't wiggle too much, etc!

kluchetta · Mar 16, 2010

I just did my first sub-q last night on Tigger. This cat will not let you pick her up, pill her, cut her nails...anything. I used a 21 needle, and putting the needle in was no problem. She did growl when the fluids started going in, so maybe I didn't warm them up enough. She did move a little and the needle came out. (kinda funny, it was like a fire hose, all squirting all over the place!) Anyway, I inserted the needle again, and again, it wasn't the needle she even felt, it was when I opened it up again to let the fluids through.

She was pretty sick last night, and even though I only got about 500 into her, it really perked her up!

mews2much · Mar 16, 2010

I agree with the Miralax.
My Coco takes that.

otto · Mar 16, 2010

Originally Posted by kluchetta

I just did my first sub-q last night on Tigger. This cat will not let you pick her up, pill her, cut her nails...anything. I used a 21 needle, and putting the needle in was no problem. She did growl when the fluids started going in, so maybe I didn't warm them up enough. She did move a little and the needle came out. (kinda funny, it was like a fire hose, all squirting all over the place!) Anyway, I inserted the needle again, and again, it wasn't the needle she even felt, it was when I opened it up again to let the fluids through.

She was pretty sick last night, and even though I only got about 500 into her, it really perked her up!

Is this a typo? Did you mean 50? 500 ml is an awful lot for a cat all at one time. At least.... I've never heard of giving that much. I would think it could cause edema.

snickerdoodle · Mar 16, 2010

He has received 200ML of the fluids twice. This was the second day. I have to take him up there each day for the rest of the week for 1 treatment a day. I know I shouldn't jump to saying I can't do it, it is just so terrifying. What if he jerks and I puncture through his ribcage into his lung, or something horrible like that? I will try to keep my mind open and do it. It also took about 15-20 minutes for the fluid to get in there, and that was after setting everything up. It seemed to take forever today, but hopefully that will be a little better once I become more used to it.
I was upbeat when the nurse told me that he could -possibly- get to the point where he only needs it twice a week. They said they would lessen the ML given to under 200 once they think he was getting hydrated enough. But after talking to my friend who just lost a cat to cancer, telling me I need to think "about what is best for the cat," I am just depressed all over again. But I will try to stay positive! He is doing well for now and cleaning himself, and hopefully his tooshie will become not so tender soon. I know I can't take him up to the vet for the rest of his life, even 2 days a week, I guess I was hoping he would become used to it but it may cause more harm than good with all the stress.. I was told after this week's hydration we will do another CBC and see where the numbers are at, and talk about treatment for BP and everything else.
If it wasn't 200 ML I would be more open to it, 200 took so long it seemed!
Oh goodness. We will see! Thank you all for being so positive and helping me through this difficult time.
I WILL talk to the vet about Miralax! He went poop last night and it looked fairly normal except it was in balls instead of one long portion.
The prices they gave me for take home supplies we 50 cents a needle, 10 needles is 5 dollars, 1000ML of fluid was $22.00 and the extension set was 7 dollars which they said I can reuse. I would not be reusing needles.
Thanks again guys.

mews2much · Mar 16, 2010

Go to Thriving Pets.
I order my supplies there and it saves alot of money.
My Coco gets 100 mL every other day.
Do not be afraid to do the fluids at home.
I was scared at first also but it is easy.

otto · Mar 16, 2010

Originally Posted by Snickerdoodle

He has received 200ML of the fluids twice. This was the second day. I have to take him up there each day for the rest of the week for 1 treatment a day. I know I shouldn't jump to saying I can't do it, it is just so terrifying. What if he jerks and I puncture through his ribcage into his lung, or something horrible like that?

That will never happen. The needle is only sub q, under the skin. It's not anywhere near his organs. Yes you might poke a muscle or a bone, but just move the needle if that happens. Or you'll poke the needle clear through out the other side. That happens too.

A few times I would think everything was going well, and when I released Ootay I would find my lap was soaking wet and hardly any got in her! either because I pushed the needle back through, or it fell out and I didn't notice.

Also, the fluids get tight under the skin. Gently lift the surrounding skin as the fluids flow in, to help the fluid disperse, or lightly rub/massage the pouch area.

Originally Posted by Snickerdoodle

I will try to keep my mind open and do it. It also took about 15-20 minutes for the fluid to get in there, and that was after setting everything up.

That is a very long time. With a #18 needle 200 ml should take 7 minutes.

Originally Posted by Snickerdoodle

I was upbeat when the nurse told me that he could -possibly- get to the point where he only needs it twice a week. They said they would lessen the ML given to under 200 once they think he was getting hydrated enough. But after talking to my friend who just lost a cat to cancer, telling me I need to think "about what is best for the cat," I am just depressed all over again.

Cancer is not at all the same thing as CRF. Many many cats live long happy lives after a CRF diagnosis, with sub q fluids helping them. I know a kitty who is 22 years old, and has been in CRF for 7 years.

Anyway, you can't compare BooBoos case with any other case. Each case is unique to itself

Originally Posted by Snickerdoodle

and hopefully his tooshie will become not so tender soon. I know I can't take him up to the vet for the rest of his life, even 2 days a week, I guess I was hoping he would become used to it but it may cause more harm than good with all the stress.. I was told after this week's hydration we will do another CBC and see where the numbers are at, and talk about treatment for BP and everything else.
If it wasn't 200 ML I would be more open to it, 200 took so long it seemed!
.

Why would his tooshie be sore?

As I said 200 ml should not take longer than 10 minutes, and usually less, with a # 18 needle. Some people do bring their cats in twice a week to have the fluids done, but it is much better if you can learn to do it at home, and I feel sure you can.

At home he will be more relaxed, once he gets used to it. You can warm the fluids. And it wil be a lot less money.

When a schedule is established, go to your local pharmacy where you get your own meds and ask them if they can get in the fluids, tubes (called IV sets) and needles there. I saved hundreds a month getting my supplies through my local human pharmacy.

My vet wrote the prescriptions, just ask your vet to do the same. For example: one bag of fluid at the vet is $22. One CASE of fluids (12 bags) through the pharmacy was $22-$24. Each needle was fifty cents at the vet. I got a box of $100 needles for $10.

I still think one week is too soon. IMO two weeks of fluid therapy is better.

Yes, think positive! When you start doing it at home, we will help you.

Cornell has some good instructional videos I'll find the link for you.

mews2much · Mar 16, 2010

I agree with what Otto says.
It never takes me more then 7 minutes to give fluids.
I pay the same thing for 12 bags and I.V. set ups as I pay at the vets for 1.

snickerdoodle · Mar 16, 2010

I am very relieved to hear about the supply prices. I have a new privately run family pharmacy here and they are very nice about ordering special things so I am sure I could do that.
Boo has poo'd a bit, it is runny but his rear is clean (Being shaved certainly helps) As for his rear hurting, I could be wrong, but after his enema, like I said, he was given to me nasty, and he hates to me nasty so I think he was not trying to sit on anything, but when I tried to clean him he became very upset with me (Unlike him usually, he used to like me to clean his rear when I would have to every once in awhile) and now when he goes to sit down on his haunches he acts like his rear is sore, and will readjust two or three times before he settles. If I lift his tail to even try to look he will give me an unpleasant meow. He was already hating his rear area messed with since his P/U. Otto, the vet tech told me exactly what you told me about going through clear through, but I completely forgot to ask about piercing to organs. I am a bit relieved about that.
I could possibly be wrong about the amount of time the fluid drip took, I was holding onto him tightly and so terrified when he jerked (I scared of organ punctures) that it may not have been that long. Frazzled out of my mind! I am a little concerned because he is sitting in a meatloaf position now, not on his side like he was doing.

Thank you all for your help. I will continue updating. You all are so appreciated

kluchetta · Mar 16, 2010

Originally Posted by otto

Is this a typo? Did you mean 50? 500 ml is an awful lot for a cat all at one time. At least.... I've never heard of giving that much. I would think it could cause edema.

Oops, yes that is the result of me never sleeping. I only got 50 in because I was impatient and stopped the third time the needle fell out.

taryn · Mar 16, 2010

Yeah, vets are something you sometimes have to look around for. I was lucky, we have used the same practice on and off since 1984(the original vet retired but his son and 3 other doctors have taken over) for our dogs. I took Attitude and Nuts there and I like them. They have been comforting about their leukemia, Attitude(I had originally just decided to take her as my pet) being positive was a total shock to everyone. The test was just a technicality that they had to do. The son told me he had an uncle that had a positive cat that lived to 17 and that some cats live long happy lives and die of old age. They have been great, they really kept my Old English Sheepdog going in her final years and they provided such excellence in their care of her I couldn't go to anyone else.

Paul switched to my vet after his vet charged him over $200 to put a 1 lb kitten to sleep. I really didn't like them anyways, I mean the vet was nice but they just weren't like my vet.

When Mama, technically not my cat, she lives outside and I feed her and got her spayed, had her rectal prolapse and the rescue(I had called to see if a rescue would take her just to make her better and get her the treatment I knew she needed even though it killed me to give her up, after all her insides were hanging out of her) told me about the low cost clinic(they were full all the ones that accept FeLV positive, Attitude and Nuts are her grandchildren so I'm sure she's positive, cats are always full) I hated that vet. He was an pompous a-hole and treated me like I was an idiot. He also thought I was stupid for thinking that getting Attitude spayed after she unexpectedly went into heat at 5 months old when I have her un-altered brother inside(I found our when I found him on top of her) was an emergency. He thought this because she could just get a spay/abort so I could take my time getting her fixed.

Um yeah, I want to put my 5 month old cat through a spay/abort instead of having her done the next day, thus making sure she wouldn't get pregnant, and not put her health in danger AND have a much more risky surgery, plus pay more to have it done, after I found out she was in heat, my vet went above and beyond to get Attitude in the very next day after I called and didn't charge me extra to spay her even though she was in heat. Like I said I love my vet.

I called the clinic everyday(sometimes more than once a day if they needed to talk to the vet about something) to check on Mama until she was released. She was there for a week but they only charged me $150. I mean they were nice but the vet really p*ssed me off, I am NOT stupid and I don't appreciate being treated as such, I do what I view as best for my animals. Besides I didn't have to bring Mama in or worry about her, I could have just let 'nature takes it's course' since she wasn't my cat and let her die. She lived with her insides out of her in subzero windchills for at least 4 days(it took me that long to borrow the neighbor's carrier, and finally catch her.) She also was still eating and happy. Anyone that tough deserved everything I could do for her, not that I wouldn't have no matter what. I just couldn't afford to get her treated for what my vet would have charged, but I knew this and was willing to give her up to save her.

Taryn

autumnblueangel · Mar 16, 2010

I think, you need to ask your vet to do a test on your cats heart. Not just blood tests, get them to do an ultrasound. Many vets are reluctant to do this, but if I had trusted my intuition with my beloved Zharra and pushed them to do it, she might have still been here today.

What you describe could be Kidney problems, but it could also very well be Hypertrophic Cardiomypathy. It can lay undetected for years, and be an instant killer. You need to request an Echocardiogram for this. Strain on the heart can affect other organs - ie not enough blood flow to them, which can mess with other testing. It's best to be safe than sorry, I wish I had done it with Zharra.

http://www.cat-world.com.au/feline-h...cardiomyopathy

* Lethargy
* Anorexia
* Weight loss
* Rapid, laboured & noisy breathing
* Decreased activity
* Congestive heart failure
* Irregular heart rhythm
* Gagging
* Lameness or paralysis of the hind legs

snickerdoodle · Mar 17, 2010

I am pretty sure we are going to continue fluid therapy, we were just going to do the CBC towards the end of this week or beginning of next, but not stop fluid therapy, as per my understanding (or assumption, I will get that cleared up certainly)
I am very excited this morning as this was the first morning in 2 weeks or more he greeted me at the door when I came home. He wanted to go outside, but it is too cold right now. I will take him out later in the day when it gets up to 60+ (Hoping it doesn't rain first)
I will also ask about the Hypertrophic Cardiomypathy. Thank you for telling me this. Also, he used the bathroom overnight/this morning and had actual firm stool come out. It was in nickel to quarter size and one of them had a bit of a tannish color in it. He also had about a tablespoon of runny. (Sorry, probably TMI!) I easily cleaned his rear up with a baby wipe rinsed in warm water. He wasn't pleased, but not as angry as the last time I tried it. I am going to also ask for planning the miralax when the vet feels it might be appropriate or when he thinks we can start it.. My female tortie may need to be on it too. Goodness so much to remember! I try to bring lists of things to remember to talk about them with the vet, but they seem to always try to sidestep it. Will get to talk to the vet today about the stool incident, but will try to wait until AFTER he gets his fluids so I can be sure (I worry so badly folks, about every single thing it's ridiculous) that they don't get mad and take it out on him. It may not happen, ever, but... I'd just rather not risk it you know??
Again.. I am so greatful for all of your help. You will never know how much!!

You have been the only really supportive people during this, and it is keeping me going.

kluchetta · Mar 17, 2010

Originally Posted by Snickerdoodle

I am pretty sure we are going to continue fluid therapy, we were just going to do the CBC towards the end of this week or beginning of next, but not stop fluid therapy, as per my understanding (or assumption, I will get that cleared up certainly)
I am very excited this morning as this was the first morning in 2 weeks or more he greeted me at the door when I came home. He wanted to go outside, but it is too cold right now. I will take him out later in the day when it gets up to 60+ (Hoping it doesn't rain first)
I will also ask about the Hypertrophic Cardiomypathy. Thank you for telling me this. Also, he used the bathroom overnight/this morning and had actual firm stool come out. It was in nickel to quarter size and one of them had a bit of a tannish color in it. He also had about a tablespoon of runny. (Sorry, probably TMI!) I easily cleaned his rear up with a baby wipe rinsed in warm water. He wasn't pleased, but not as angry as the last time I tried it. I am going to also ask for planning the miralax when the vet feels it might be appropriate or when he thinks we can start it.. My female tortie may need to be on it too. Goodness so much to remember! I try to bring lists of things to remember to talk about them with the vet, but they seem to always try to sidestep it. Will get to talk to the vet today about the stool incident, but will try to wait until AFTER he gets his fluids so I can be sure (I worry so badly folks, about every single thing it's ridiculous) that they don't get mad and take it out on him. It may not happen, ever, but... I'd just rather not risk it you know??
Again.. I am so greatful for all of your help. You will never know how much!!

You have been the only really supportive people during this, and it is keeping me going.

Hey, Snickerdoodle, I just wanted you to know I did Tigger's second sub-q last night, and I don't think she even noticed it!!! She didn't notice the needle going in at all. And I warmed the fluids and drained the cooler fluids out of the hanging tubing, and when I opened up the IV thing, she didn't even notice. She just sat next to me eating kitty treats!

otto · Mar 17, 2010

Originally Posted by Snickerdoodle

I am pretty sure we are going to continue fluid therapy, we were just going to do the CBC towards the end of this week or beginning of next, but not stop fluid therapy, as per my understanding (or assumption, I will get that cleared up certainly)
I am very excited this morning as this was the first morning in 2 weeks or more he greeted me at the door when I came home. He wanted to go outside, but it is too cold right now. I will take him out later in the day when it gets up to 60+ (Hoping it doesn't rain first)
I will also ask about the Hypertrophic Cardiomypathy. Thank you for telling me this. Also, he used the bathroom overnight/this morning and had actual firm stool come out. It was in nickel to quarter size and one of them had a bit of a tannish color in it. He also had about a tablespoon of runny. (Sorry, probably TMI!) I easily cleaned his rear up with a baby wipe rinsed in warm water. He wasn't pleased, but not as angry as the last time I tried it. I am going to also ask for planning the miralax when the vet feels it might be appropriate or when he thinks we can start it.. My female tortie may need to be on it too. Goodness so much to remember! I try to bring lists of things to remember to talk about them with the vet, but they seem to always try to sidestep it. Will get to talk to the vet today about the stool incident, but will try to wait until AFTER he gets his fluids so I can be sure (I worry so badly folks, about every single thing it's ridiculous) that they don't get mad and take it out on him. It may not happen, ever, but... I'd just rather not risk it you know??
Again.. I am so greatful for all of your help. You will never know how much!!

You have been the only really supportive people during this, and it is keeping me going.

Honestly, you should not have to be worrying about such things with your vet. Trusting your vet, and the practice in general, is absolutely crucial, in my opinion, especially when you have a special needs cat.

So I need to ask you a hard, personal question, please don't take offense:

Is this feeling of yours, this fear that you are taking up "too much" of their time, or that they will hurt BooBoo in some way because they don't like you..rational? I mean...are you just the "paranoid" type, or is there truly a danger of your pets being mistreated at this place?

The people of the vet clinic are there for one reason. To help you take care of your pets, to help you keep your pets healthy, to help your cats live good quality lives. You are PAYING for these services, and regardless of their personal feelings, you should feel assured that: 1) you will be given due respect, and 2) as much time is as needed to answer any questions you may have, with answers you can understand and 3) your pet will receive the utmost quality of care and gentle handling.

If you sincerely feel that your cat is in danger if you aren't meek and accepting, I urge you to find another practice. People who take a proactive stance in their pets care should be respected, not dismissed.

Your vet needs to know that YOU want to know what is going on, YOU want to understand every little thing, YOU are going to be on top of everything involved with BooBoo, YOU are doing research and YOU may question his decisions.

You have every right to say "why did you do this instead of that?" and so on.

You know what? I bring my list of questions to every vet visit. My vet waits for me to ask my questions, answers them, then waits for me to write the answers down. When the session is just about over, she says "did you ask all your questions on your list, is there anything I can clarify?"

And yes, she is a busy vet.

When you have a pet who needs frequent trips to the vet, and frequent consultations (via phone), a treatment plan that may need variations as time goes on, you really really need to have a vet and clinic that you feel comfortable with.

Peace of mind is very important. BooBoo (and any other pets you have) will feel any stress you feel. Stressing over how your vet or the staff think of you should not be one of the things you worry about.

Worrying about whether you are 'bothering' them with phone calls..that's just no good. If you have questions or fears, you need to feel able to call and get answers, not sit there and fret over whether it's a "worthy" question or not.
BooBoo's health and quality of life depends on it.

(as does yours, no one needs that kind of stress!)

icklemiss21 · Mar 17, 2010

I am with Otto on this one, even if you are being a little paranoid, the fact you heard the staff means others have too and that should be a legitimate issue for the vet - and if it isn't my vet would not be handling my animals (I think every vet in the city knows that about me I have been to so many between my own cats, my ferals and the shelter cats).

Often, the vet (it is the vet or a tech giving the fluids?) has no idea what their staff are doing or saying. I was at my own vet recently, she does not stock Hill's products but her new tech (I think she is a trainee actually) was telling me all about how a certain Hill's diet would do wonders for my cat.

The vet had overheard it, but knowing it was me and I am happy with the food mine get and not about to change to a crappier carb filled version she left well alone knowing I would tell the tech exactly what I thought of the food. The vet did called me later to apologise for the misinformation we were given, because my BF happened to be with me and is one of those people who doesnt question the vet and would want to take them off Orijen. But that tech had never received that info from the vet - she decided on her own to give it out. If she had even looked in the file she would know that my vet and I have had very long discussions on diets since Scully's diet was always a concern and the others have typically eaten the same foods as he did to make it easier on feeding them.

My vet stays late for me, she is happy for me to call and ask her questions when I am worried and even when I have that 'somethings not right but they don't seem actually sick but I am worried' moments or days. Honestly, I wouldn't settle for anything less, especially when you have a special needs cat. When I first used her, I was so impressed that the morning after I took him home from surgery, she called to see how 'her big boy was doing'. She lives locally and I see her in the grocery store - she knows all of my cats by name and asks how they are doing.

Honestly, you could be hurting your cat with your stress level, if you are stressed, they can sense it and I would not want my cat already stressed when undergoing any therapy. Speak to the vet and if you are not happy with their response - find another vet

Booboo is confusingly not well

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