how many of you really believe in an afterlife?

On a bad day i would be ok w/dead and done. No reicarnation or anything else at all.

Ive always thought of the devil as an answer to anything that goes wrong, not an entity. When someone kills, rapes, mauls animals, gets the reverse done to them, steals, becomes mentally ill, all i hear religious people saying is 'the devil did it'. Even my dad says it! Whatever happened to bad luck? Someone is born good like everyone else, they have bad experiences and turn bad, or fate/co-incidence whatever you call it, someone gets hit by a car. The 'devil' is an answer to someones problems. When something good happens, you thank god, when something bad happens, you blame the devil. How about thanking and blaming fellow human beings? We were all born with free will and make out own choices. Whatever happens is by our own hand. The devil did not create the earthquakes and tsunamis and god did not save certain people, they were very lucky or strong or in the right place to be protected.

I end my rant

i will say you are right about about the placing blame.
i really do beleave that god has placed us here, but like kids we must grow up. and like a father, at some point you need to let them go, to stand or fall on there own. there is more to life then what we can see.
pick the wrong path, and i am sure you will meet somethings that would change your mind.

Originally Posted by theimp98

i will say you are right about about the placing blame.
i really do beleave that god has placed us here, but like kids we must grow up. and like a father, at some point you need to let them go, to stand or fall on there own. there is more to life then what we can see.
pick the wrong path, and i am sure you will meet somethings that would change your mind.

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Thankfully my path has chosen me. I spent many years trying to pick it for myself and instead Wicca found me.

Wow my hair is curly today! (completely random thing)

Originally Posted by Dragoriana

Whatever happens is by our own hand.

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But that is not my experience..so where does that leave us

Originally Posted by Dragoriana

Thankfully my path has chosen me. I spent many years trying to pick it for myself and instead Wicca found me.

Wow my hair is curly today! (completely random thing)

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if you shave it off like me it wont be curly

Originally Posted by CatsAreBetter

I think there is enough inherent good and evil present in humans that whether god or the devil exist, or don't exist, and/or are present on earth instead of their respective domains.. probably doesn't ultimately matter in how the role of good and evil plays out, if that makes any sense...?

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Good and Evil are just relative, subjective, arbitrary and very conflicting terms. What is evil to you may be good to someone else, and vice versa. What is viewed as evil now maybe viewed as good 10 years later and vice versa.

Originally Posted by Dragoriana

Ive always thought of the devil as an answer to anything that goes wrong, not an entity. When someone kills, rapes, mauls animals, gets the reverse done to them, steals, becomes mentally ill, all i hear religious people saying is 'the devil did it'. Even my dad says it! Whatever happened to bad luck? Someone is born good like everyone else, they have bad experiences and turn bad, or fate/co-incidence whatever you call it, someone gets hit by a car. The 'devil' is an answer to someones problems. When something good happens, you thank god, when something bad happens, you blame the devil. How about thanking and blaming fellow human beings? We were all born with free will and make out own choices. Whatever happens is by our own hand. The devil did not create the earthquakes and tsunamis and god did not save certain people, they were very lucky or strong or in the right place to be protected.

I end my rant

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That's exactly how I feel.

Originally Posted by SalemWitchChild

That's exactly how I feel.

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*bites nails* i was worried i might get flamed or yelled at for saying that

Originally Posted by Dragoriana

*bites nails* i was worried i might get flamed or yelled at for saying that

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lol. Dont' worry if you get flamed I'll be right alongside you.

Originally Posted by Yosemite

I like that - aren't we all!

I believe in the afterlife and also reincarnation (maybe because I want or need to). I don't believe in the Bible per se since I personally believe it to be a book written by man and we all know the kind of poetic license man has taken in literature. Besides if I believed in the Bible, I'd have to believe in incest (who else would Cain and Abel have married but their sisters?). I even sometimes wonder if John Travolta and Tom Cruise may not even have something there in their faith. I think there is a lot we don't know and a lot of unexplained happenings that can't be explained in the Bible.

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Reading through this thread is interesting!

I really do agree with you...on the whole Bible & poetic license thing. I guess I have hard time believing the bible....I know someone who does not believe in the bible because things are "wrong" in it(like incest) according to today's culture. It freaks her out.

ETA: I am a firm believe in fate. Take Kenz & Davidson. If Davidon hadn't left "us".....then what would've happened to Bayley? Would the infection have gotten worse & he died? Would whomever had adopted him just declawed him as the "easy way out" justifying the vet saying it might be necessary? The same can be applied to humans....

Originally Posted by Lemur 6

Good and Evil are just relative, subjective, arbitrary and very conflicting terms. What is evil to you may be good to someone else, and vice versa. What is viewed as evil now maybe viewed as good 10 years later and vice versa.

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Hmm, I think the term Good is probably relative, subjective and arbitrary, but I think Evil has a very extreme definition.. whereas "bad" might be more subjective/arbitrary. "oh, cheesecake is good" "it's good to help the little old lady across the street" "she's a good person"... bad could be just as general, but evil, I think, might be a little general once you hit a certain point... such as... rape, murder, slavery.. you might say rape isn't as bad as murder, but to me that's only a nominal difference. Something like stealing, lying or cheating.. while it might be sinful or bad, I would never consider to be evil unless the end result was something like murder or rape, death... etc.

I do agree with Dragoriana and Salem, though, that good or evil is done by human hands and fostered by those around them, generally. Sometimes it can't be accounted for due to a psychosis or medical condition, but those lacking that excuse...

Originally Posted by CatsAreBetter

Hmm, I think the term Good is probably relative, subjective and arbitrary, but I think Evil has a very extreme definition.. whereas "bad" might be more subjective/arbitrary. "oh, cheesecake is good" "it's good to help the little old lady across the street" "she's a good person"... bad could be just as general, but evil, I think, might be a little general once you hit a certain point... such as... rape, murder, slavery.. you might say rape isn't as bad as murder, but to me that's only a nominal difference. Something like stealing, lying or cheating.. while it might be sinful or bad, I would never consider to be evil unless the end result was something like murder or rape, death... etc.

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Oh oops, you're right, I meant bad. Hmm... murder/killing/death are one of those grey things (well I think so). For example, if you kill a bad person, or you kill in self defense, if an "evil" person is executed, or it's your job to kill (soldiers/military) etc.

Originally Posted by Lemur 6

Oh oops, you're right, I meant bad. Hmm... murder/killing/death are one of those grey things (well I think so). For example, if you kill a bad person, or you kill in self defense, if an "evil" person is executed, or it's your job to kill (soldiers/military) etc.

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All killing is bad but i think doing it in self defence is a little different to plain old 'gotta hunt this person down and kill them' murder. I know alot of people are relieved once people on death row have been executed, but i think if there was no chance of parole ever, id rather those criminals rot in jail for the rest of their lives and see what life is like when you are a lowlife.

End of rant

Originally Posted by Dragoriana

All killing is bad but i think doing it in self defence is a little different to plain old 'gotta hunt this person down and kill them' murder. I know alot of people are relieved once people on death row have been executed, but i think if there was no chance of parole ever, id rather those criminals rot in jail for the rest of their lives and see what life is like when you are a lowlife.

End of rant

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Sometimes I wonder... those people who have been hurt by criminals, hurt to the point where they bear such a malice to wish death or worse on a person, and then to feel relief or even satisfaction from a person's demise or to see them suffer. Are they any better than the criminal? It brings me back to my original point... good and bad are truly relative and arbitrary...

But anyway, sorry for the thread jack. Went quite a ways off topic.

So, this is mainly a question for those of you who believe pets have an afterlife.... if pets have an afterlife, that means all animals have an afterlife right? Bears, koalas, sharks, slugs, bugs, and worms and bacteria are animals too right? So they have an afterlife? And plants? They're alive right? They have an afterlife? What about viruses that just border on being an organism? These animals, do they know the difference between good and bad? Viruses and bacteria are bad right? Do they all go to hell? What about plants? They don't do anything, they just sit there and grow, where do they go?

Sorry, feeling mischievous .

Originally Posted by Lemur 6

Sometimes I wonder... those people who have been hurt by criminals, hurt to the point where they bear such a malice to wish death or worse on a person, and then to feel relief or even satisfaction from a person's demise or to see them suffer. Are they any better than the criminal? It brings me back to my original point... good and bad are truly relative and arbitrary...

But anyway, sorry for the thread jack. Went quite a ways off topic.

So, this is mainly a question for those of you who believe pets have an afterlife.... if pets have an afterlife, that means all animals have an afterlife right? Bears, koalas, sharks, slugs, bugs, and worms and bacteria are animals too right? So they have an afterlife? And plants? They're alive right? They have an afterlife? What about viruses that just border on being an organism? These animals, do they know the difference between good and bad? Viruses and bacteria are bad right? Do they all go to hell? What about plants? They don't do anything, they just sit there and grow, where do they go?

Sorry, feeling mischievous

.

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Plants wither away and die, and re-fertilise the earth, like anything that passes on. Except i dont know if plants have souls, so do all of the animals and humans who have transcended have plants in the afterlife? it would be sad if they didn't

To me, if something has life, it has a soul. Research has shown that plants do feel "pain" or touch.. they have a sensitivity to certain things.. while it may not be as developed as the central nervous system or senses of an animal/human.. it still exists to some basic degree. To me a soul is simply defined as the "driving" force, or the life force. Anything that has life has that life force.. but then I think you're looking at the argument that concious will v. unconcious will.. it's obviously not as sentient, but I would still consider a plant concious and aware of it's surroundings, even if it's not making concious choices and decisions about it's life.

Anyway, I kind of think in absolutes in this. If life/soul has some place to go when it ceases existing in its current form.. then all life/souls would have whatever options are available, whether that's an option of reincarnation, or an option of nothing, or an option of heaven/hell/purgatory.. To me it's a matter of natural law or logic.. I guess I just don't understand how humans (in general) can place qualifications on which life is important and what isn't, stating which souls get to go to heaven and which don't.. I sort of view that as being awfully condescending. It's sort of like thinking that in all the galaxies in all the universe we're the *most* intelligent life form out there.. and that in all of those planets/galaxies there is no possibility for other life. Doesn't seem logical to me..

Originally Posted by CatsAreBetter

To me it's a matter of natural law or logic.. I guess I just don't understand how humans (in general) can place qualifications on which life is important and what isn't, stating which souls get to go to heaven and which don't.. I sort of view that as being awfully condescending. It's sort of like thinking that in all the galaxies in all the universe we're the *most* intelligent life form out there.. and that in all of those planets/galaxies there is no possibility for other life. Doesn't seem logical to me..

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My thoughts exactly. I always wondered, if there is other intelligent life out there somewhere, would they believe in such a thing as a god or an afterlife as some people would define it, and if not, what reaction they would have once they're introduced to the concept. What if they believed in something completely different? Or even more interesting, if they had tangible proof?

Originally Posted by Lemur 6

Sometimes I wonder... those people who have been hurt by criminals, hurt to the point where they bear such a malice to wish death or worse on a person, and then to feel relief or even satisfaction from a person's demise or to see them suffer. Are they any better than the criminal? It brings me back to my original point... good and bad are truly relative and arbitrary...

But anyway, sorry for the thread jack. Went quite a ways off topic.

So, this is mainly a question for those of you who believe pets have an afterlife.... if pets have an afterlife, that means all animals have an afterlife right? Bears, koalas, sharks, slugs, bugs, and worms and bacteria are animals too right? So they have an afterlife? And plants? They're alive right? They have an afterlife? What about viruses that just border on being an organism? These animals, do they know the difference between good and bad? Viruses and bacteria are bad right? Do they all go to hell? What about plants? They don't do anything, they just sit there and grow, where do they go?

Sorry, feeling mischievous

.

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Wow! Lots to respond to in that one!

Part 1: While of course we all feel the heartbreak of the families of murder victims, I agree completely that if they stand out in front of the prison deathhouse and cheer when they hear the execution has occurred, they have stooped just about as low as the killer. This is one of the many, many reasons why I oppose the death penalty: because it panders to the very worst aspects of human nature.

But are good and bad really arbitrary? I don't think so. I think some things are cosmically, empirically Good or Bad. What fluctuates are the mores of societies in different times and places.

For example: we know that incest is bad, because it leads to birth defects and gradually weakens the genetic line -- not to mention distorting natural familial relationships and being distasteful in the extreme. But as recently as the 19th century, it was perfectly acceptable for first cousins to marry! Still, the fact that it was acceptable didn't make it Good. It just made it part of the way of life in that time and place.

Y'know, it's like the definition of a weed: if a rosebush grows in the middle of a cornfield, it's considered a weed. But the rosebush is still beautiful!

Part II: Now, about animal afterlives: someone here said that any creature that feels emotions has a soul, and I think that's probably a pretty good place to draw the line. So obviously, cats and dogs have souls. Certainly all simians, too, our very close DNA relatives. Dolphins and whales. I think if an animal can develop a bond beyond mere instinct, that indicates the possession of a soul, and that probably includes the majority of mammals. Maybe even all of them. I don't know much about birds, but as intelligent as many of them are, I'd be very surprised if they didn't also have emotions.

But when you get down to reptiles and fish, I begin to have my doubts. Their brains are so minimal that it seems unlikely they could support anything beyond survival instinct. And I certainly don't expect to find much sentimentality in a cockroach or an earthworm.

As for plants, they are clearly an entirely different thing, not possessed of consciousness. And although I am not religious, I do feel that in the great scheme of things, there must always be a "right answer" -- and if plants were thinking, feeling creatures, what would be left for Earthlings to eat without guilt?

As an aside: I know you're joking about bacteria going to Hell, but actually, not all bacteria are bad! Many of them serve a very useful purpose -- without them, landfills would not decay as they need to, for example, and our own digestive tracts would not work properly. Why, we wouldn't even have bread without bacteria! And I seem to recall that there are some viruses that are at least benign, causing beneficial mutations in plants. And genetic medicine uses viruses to carry beneficial elements to the right places in our bodies. So even they are not always bad.

Part 3: With regard to the question of whether good and bad are arbitrary... someone told me once that the Sufis say "the only mortal sin is separation from God, and the only venal sin is separation." Again, I'm not religious -- but there's some wisdom in that. What I take from it is that whenever we act for our own benefit alone, rather than for the good of all, then we are committing a wrong.

Sometimes that Sufi saying has come in handy when the difference between Good and Bad seems blurry.

Originally Posted by CarolPetunia

But when you get down to reptiles and fish, I begin to have my doubts. Their brains are so minimal that it seems unlikely they could support anything beyond survival instinct.

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I'm not going to get into the soul debate... But in many reptiles there is certainly more going on then just survival instinct. I wouldn't argue that there's love or affection, but watching my turtles try to figure something out or trying to climb up stuff to get to me (a couple of them really like being held ) or even the one leopard gecko that I raised from a baby begging to be let out and held, there's something else going on there. I imagine they have to do something else with their brains since captivity removes their need to hunt for their own food or to fear predators.

I might add though, reptile forums have Rainbow Bridge sections too.

There are too many fish to say they all have the same reasoning abilities...
Then there's mollusks