Best novelty protein suggestions and how to transition?

[daftcat75]

I was just going through my many prescription cards and naturally I don't have that particular one. I did just buy him a few cans of rawz to try...naturally I didn't buy chicken because I kept thinking that was the problem. I will ask about the I/D food. What about that particular food would help me rule out the allergy out of curiosity? Would I get the same results trying a can of low filler chicken such as rawz brand? I'm definitely going to start keeping a log. The best part is if we go back a couple of months ago I had a hard time getting him to eat much of anything. Anytime I found a new wet food he liked it would never last more than a couple of days.

If he likes Rawz or Mouser, don't even get him started on I/D. I'm not a fan of its carb content. The reason I suggested it is because it is similar to boiled chicken and rice. Where it differs and where I start to waiver in my support of it is the inclusion of wheat gluten and one or two other starches to make the gravy. It's essentially chicken in gravy with rice and carrots. I'm not a fan of putting rice or carrots in cat food either. But Betty seems to love the stuff and I can't get her on anything else. In any case, she's stable on it and for a long time the vet wouldn't allow me to make changes. It took us forever to get her stable and then to and through her first dental. Now I'm allowed to make changes but I dare not to just yet. It's been a spendy ride and I'd just like a little breather here. Even if I/D is crazy expensive ($50/case for 24 small cans.) I basically suggested I/D as a sustainable chicken and rice diet since you can't feed him solely chicken and rice for very long. An alternative would be to skip the rice and use chicken liver (fresh or freeze-dried) and a vitamin powder completer like Alnutrin to make your own food. Though even if you go this route, I recommend keeping a canned food in his diet to weather out any supply or production issues, e.g. you ran out of an ingredient, you forgot to make a new batch on time, or he just doesn't like a certain batch (which happens sometimes.)

 

[Alldara]

Thank you!!! Yes he's been getting very small meals so I will try to just add things in slowly. Strangely he's just eating boiled chicken and rice right now to help with a bad bout of diarrhea and he's doing much better. Makes me wonder how he can be intolerant to chicken if he's eating it with no issues currently. Wondering if it's the fillers vs the actual protein in his case.

Could definitely be fillers. You'll want to try things with less ingredients then.

 

[lisahe]

I was just going through my many prescription cards and naturally I don't have that particular one. I did just buy him a few cans of rawz to try...naturally I didn't buy chicken because I kept thinking that was the problem. I will ask about the I/D food. What about that particular food would help me rule out the allergy out of curiosity? Would I get the same results trying a can of low filler chicken such as rawz brand? I'm definitely going to start keeping a log. The best part is if we go back a couple of months ago I had a hard time getting him to eat much of anything. Anytime I found a new wet food he liked it would never last more than a couple of days.

Given the lack of fillers, I'd definitely go for the Rawz, starting in very small amounts since it's fairly rich. Does Meeko tend to prefer pates over shreds? If he likes shreds, Chewy has some house brand chicken shred foods that have very basic ingredients. Tiki Cat does, too.

I'm glad to hear the chicken and rice meals are helping! Fingers crossed that the trend will continue.

 

[tracy1213]

If he likes Rawz or Mouser, don't even get him started on I/D. I'm not a fan of its carb content. The reason I suggested it is because it is similar to boiled chicken and rice. Where it differs and where I start to waiver in my support of it is the inclusion of wheat gluten and one or two other starches to make the gravy. It's essentially chicken in gravy with rice and carrots. I'm not a fan of putting rice or carrots in cat food either. But Betty seems to love the stuff and I can't get her on anything else. In any case, she's stable on it and for a long time the vet wouldn't allow me to make changes. It took us forever to get her stable and then to and through her first dental. Now I'm allowed to make changes but I dare not to just yet. It's been a spendy ride and I'd just like a little breather here. Even if I/D is crazy expensive ($50/case for 24 small cans.) I basically suggested I/D as a sustainable chicken and rice diet since you can't feed him solely chicken and rice for very long. An alternative would be to skip the rice and use chicken liver (fresh or freeze-dried) and a vitamin powder completer like Alnutrin to make your own food. Though even if you go this route, I recommend keeping a canned food in his diet to weather out any supply or production issues, e.g. you ran out of an ingredient, you forgot to make a new batch on time, or he just doesn't like a certain batch (which happens sometimes.)

Well today he threw up all the chicken and rice it seemed he ate from this morning and looks from the amount of puke to be some food from yesterday. he was scarfing the food down so fast yesterday but never puked. Today he ate his first meal around 7 and puked it up 3 hours later. now I'm not sure what to feed him today.

 

[Alldara]

tracy1213 Has the vet given any antiacid or anti nausea medication?

In a pinch, I had fed some Churu tubes. They are easy to digest. (Catit has some less expensive ones too).

I'd really recommend blending his food for a bit and seeing if he will eat that and keep it down. Blending it makes it very easy to digest as it's already broken down. You can heat it a bit as well as that will begin the process of breaking down the proteins for his body.

 

[lisahe]

Well today he threw up all the chicken and rice it seemed he ate from this morning and looks from the amount of puke to be some food from yesterday. he was scarfing the food down so fast yesterday but never puked. Today he ate his first meal around 7 and puked it up 3 hours later. now I'm not sure what to feed him today.

Oh no!! This is always so frustrating.

First off, after dealing with a genuine regurgitation (when the food comes up pretty much immediately after eating) last night, I would venture to say that the volume of food that comes up almost always looks much larger than the volume of food that was fed! (This regurgitation was entirely my fault: I simply fed too much. And Edwina eats too much, too fast if given the chance.) Also, a cat's stomach tends to empty within a few hours so it's unlikely that Meeko's barf today included food from yesterday. Unless his stomach empties very, very slowly due to limited motility...

In our experience, if a cat consistently barfs several hours after a meal that indicates a sensitivity. But given Meeko's recent problems, I'd also tend to suspect nausea (and/or a lot of stomach acid) and follow the suggestions that A Alldara made... I was about to suggest feeding a small amount of the chicken/rice mixture when Alldara's post popped up. I like the idea of blending it. I'd suggest not putting in too much water, though, since that seems to be one of the things that makes Edwina regurgitate meals... I've seen this mentioned in articles and anecdotal regurgitation stories, too, so I guess it's not just her! Maybe Meeko, though, does okay with lots of water? It's so unfortunate that finding what works can take so much trial and error. I'm not sure where you live but where I live, it's almost spring and our cats are starting to shed. If Meeko's shedding that might be intensifying his stomach issues. Fur definitely seems to be a factor for (very fluffy) Edwina.

Another option for food right now might be some baby food: our cats love Beechnut chicken and turkey foods, which I sometimes give them as treats and garnishes! They're very plain, with just meat and broth.

Fingers crossed that you're able to get him to keep some food down.

 

[tracy1213]

tracy1213 Has the vet given any antiacid or anti nausea medication?

In a pinch, I had fed some Churu tubes. They are easy to digest. (Catit has some less expensive ones too).

I'd really recommend blending his food for a bit and seeing if he will eat that and keep it down. Blending it makes it very easy to digest as it's already broken down. You can heat it a bit as well as that will begin the process of breaking down the proteins for his body.

Thank you!! No the vet didn't give him anything yet....as he is very willing to eat but can't keep anything in. He did give him an antibiotic....metro something or other which also says it causes diarrhea so I was hesitant to put him on an antibiotic for diarrhea.

Any suggestions to how to blend chicken and rice? I assume I'll need to add water to the mixture.

 

[Alldara]

Thank you!! No the vet didn't give him anything yet....as he is very willing to eat but can't keep anything in. He did give him an antibiotic....metro something or other which also says it causes diarrhea so I was hesitant to put him on an antibiotic for diarrhea.

Any suggestions to how to blend chicken and rice? I assume I'll need to add water to the mixture.

I used a baby bullet blender that I got on my local Buy Nothing Group. I cut up chunks (turkey mind you). Are you cooking the rice twice? I believe it needs to be cooked twice for cats.

Then add a bit of water. Just slowly, pause blending and add more as needed. Test with him how blended he likes it for texture with just a lick or two. Lily liked it very thick. I have a photo. I'm sorry she looks rough in it, but it she had very serious illness at the time. Jan 2020
.
A happier photo of her midway through recovery. Getting ready for a follow-up exam. Feb 2020

 

[daftcat75]

Thank you!! No the vet didn't give him anything yet....as he is very willing to eat but can't keep anything in. He did give him an antibiotic....metro something or other which also says it causes diarrhea so I was hesitant to put him on an antibiotic for diarrhea.

Any suggestions to how to blend chicken and rice? I assume I'll need to add water to the mixture.

Metro causes more problems than it solves. I think twice daily administration of s. boulardii will give you the benefits of metro without flushing the beneficial strains in his gut.

When I made raw food, I found that freezing the meat before grinding it produced a much better grind. Perhaps the same holds true with cooked chicken and rice. I would try freezing it before blending it if you don't want it to become the cooked chicken equivalent of pink slime (what you get when you try to grind room temperature meat.)

I don't recommend an antacid. Vomiting issues with cats are very rarely an acid issue. When it is, there are better ways to manage it (more frequent meals and freeze-dried treats before meals to prime the stomach) than depressing stomach acid, reducing the first line of defense against food-borne pathogens, and altering gut pH.

An anti-nausea medication may be necessary. I like ondansetron. Even though it has to be given twice a day vs once a day for Cerenia, my last cat and this one both seem to experience some appetite suppression with Cerenia.

 

[tracy1213]

I used a baby bullet blender that I got on my local Buy Nothing Group. I cut up chunks (turkey mind you). Are you cooking the rice twice? I believe it needs to be cooked twice for cats.

Then add a bit of water. Just slowly, pause blending and add more as needed. Test with him how blended he likes it for texture with just a lick or two. Lily liked it very thick. I have a photo. I'm sorry she looks rough in it, but it she had very serious illness at the time. Jan 2020
. View attachment 445591
A happier photo of her midway through recovery. Getting ready for a follow-up exam. Feb 2020View attachment 445593

Lily looks beautiful in both photos!!!

Well so far he wouldn't touch the blended concoction which I guess is ok since you mentioned cooking the rice twice and I had no idea about that. Guess I'll look into that and try all this again. He's not interested in eating at all right now after throwing up twice so I'm hoping by this evening I can at least get something in him!

 

[Alldara]

Lily looks beautiful in both photos!!!

Well so far he wouldn't touch the blended concoction which I guess is ok since you mentioned cooking the rice twice and I had no idea about that. Guess I'll look into that and try all this again. He's not interested in eating at all right now after throwing up twice so I'm hoping by this evening I can at least get something in him!

Perhaps you could cook it again now in a pot on the stove with extra water and then boil it down.

I didn't put much rice at all in mine. I think you can also use oats instead of you want.

They might get some adversion to something after throwing it up.

I also did cook up salmon before in a similar way and that went well. I did it with a little sweet potato which Lily used to love.

I've also used the blender trick with cat food to make it really smooth or really soup like for various cats with various ailments.

 

[Box of Rain]

If a cat is having digestive difficulties, why add rice or other grains to their meals, when cats GI systems are not evolved to deal well with digesting grains and grains (including rice) have no essential ingredients that a cat requires?

Every calorie of empty nutrition crowds out items that are essential, and feeding less bulk is a kindness.

Extending a "transition" of food items that may be allergens or otherwise poorly tolerated is something I don't see the logic of doing.

The idea of serving "novel proteins" (which simply refers to species a cat hasn't eaten previously) is to help reduce the potential allergenic response, which is undermined by continuing to feed potentially problematic proteins on top of the new ones.

Additionally, it is impossible to isolate the response if an allergenic protein is fed with a novel protein.

Plus if a cat has issues with the transition due to the old "non-novel protein" (that may be the root cause) along with the novel protein and they throw up or have other issues, the cat may develop and aversion to eating the new protein.

The key, it seems to me, is to isolate proteins to one source and to evaluate the response.

Canned food are potentially problematic, not only because they tend not to be single sources, but also because when pet foods were subject to PCR testing by Chapman University research scientists in 2015, nearly 40% of the samples contained proteins that did not match the claims made on the food labels.

https://digitalcommons.chapman.edu/...=1&article=1011&context=food_science_articles

Bill

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi
You mentioned he eats really fast, maybe there's something here that helps;
How to Keep Your Cat from Scarfing Down Their Food - TheCatSite Articles

 

[Box of Rain]

Not grinding or blending food into a puree (unless it is absolutely necessary) is another way to slow cats eating down.

Bill

 

[tracy1213]

Metro causes more problems than it solves. I think twice daily administration of s. boulardii will give you the benefits of metro without flushing the beneficial strains in his gut.

When I made raw food, I found that freezing the meat before grinding it produced a much better grind. Perhaps the same holds true with cooked chicken and rice. I would try freezing it before blending it if you don't want it to become the cooked chicken equivalent of pink slime (what you get when you try to grind room temperature meat.)

I don't recommend an antacid. Vomiting issues with cats are very rarely an acid issue. When it is, there are better ways to manage it (more frequent meals and freeze-dried treats before meals to prime the stomach) than depressing stomach acid, reducing the first line of defense against food-borne pathogens, and altering gut pH.

An anti-nausea medication may be necessary. I like ondansetron. Even though it has to be given twice a day vs once a day for Cerenia, my last cat and this one both seem to experience some appetite suppression with Cerenia.

Well he seems to be eating again right now. Going to make a new batch later and either take out the rice or just add a very small amount just incase that's causing his issue.

Is your cat eating raw currently? I keep reading about it but haven't been ready to take the dive yet without way more knowledge!!

 

[tracy1213]

If a cat is having digestive difficulties, why add rice or other grains to their meals, when cats GI systems are not evolved to deal well with digesting grains and grains (including rice) have no essential ingredients that a cat requires?

Every calorie of empty nutrition crowds out items that are essential, and feeding less bulk is a kindness.

Extending a "transition" of food items that may be allergens or otherwise poorly tolerated is something I don't see the logic of doing.

The idea of serving "novel proteins" (which simply refers to species a cat hasn't eaten previously) is to help reduce the potential allergenic response, which is undermined by continuing to feed potentially problematic proteins on top of the new ones.

Additionally, it is impossible to isolate the response if an allergenic protein is fed with a novel protein.

Plus if a cat has issues with the transition due to the old "non-novel protein" (that may be the root cause) along with the novel protein and they throw up or have other issues, the cat may develop and aversion to eating the new protein.

The key, it seems to me, is to isolate proteins to one source and to evaluate the response.

Canned food are potentially problematic, not only because they tend not to be single sources, but also because when pet foods were subject to PCR testing by Chapman University research scientists in 2015, nearly 40% of the samples contained proteins that did not match the claims made on the food labels.

https://digitalcommons.chapman.edu/...=1&article=1011&context=food_science_articles

Bill

Thank you for your response. Unfortunately I was listening to my vet who suggested the rice to be added but I can easily remove it and see how he does!!

 

[tracy1213]

Hi
You mentioned he eats really fast, maybe there's something here that helps;
How to Keep Your Cat from Scarfing Down Their Food - TheCatSite Articles

Thank you!!

 

[Furballsmom]

Unfortunately I was listening to my vet who suggested the rice to be added but I can easily remove it and see how he does!!

A lot of veterinarians will suggest adding a little unseasoned white rice to the unseasoned boiled chicken, so not your fault . Every cat is different

 

[Alldara]

Well he seems to be eating again right now. Going to make a new batch later and either take out the rice or just add a very small amount just incase that's causing his issue.

Really good news! Yes don't worry about adding too much rice or any carbs really. You can add a little if you'd like.

It's a huge debate in the car nutrition community at this time. The research is ongoing: What's in My Cat's Food?: Designer Diets, Grain Free Diets | VCA Canada Animal Hospitals

I dont personally like the risks that come with raw diet, so I never bothered but this forum has some really experienced people. If he ends up needing only home-cooked food, pop over to that area of the forums and see what additives he will need to balance his diet and get all the nutrients he needs.

 

[Box of Rain]

Thank you for your response. Unfortunately I was listening to my vet who suggested the rice to be added but I can easily remove it and see how he does!!

Veterinarians have doctorates in animal health (and I do not), but it seems to me like the most common response to a myriad of health issues (that to be seem to be negatively linked to the consumption of excess carbohydrates) is to add more carbohydrates. For me, that does not compute.

Look at virtually every "prescription" food. I'm not convinced that nutrition is the current strong suit of veterinary medicine. They are good at many (many) things, and I deeply respect their skills and education, but...

For myself, I would try one single protein at a time (hopefully fresh or fresh/frozen from the human supply chain) and carefully monitor how the cat does on that single protein, whether it is a "novel protein" or not.

Cutting out all possible allergens or foods that provoke a bad response is something you'd need to do methodically.

Bill